Greetings Fellow Aquarium Hobbyist!

[MysticSkye]

HEY THERE!

I cannot remember how, what, or why I got started in this aquatic world of wonder. Perhaps it had to do with my allergies to nearly every cute & cuddly animal Maybe I finally had enough of being the only petless household in my neighborhood. Ooh! Maybe it was my passion for science & underwater organisms. Some reflection tells me it was a combo of it all. I spent hours and hours reading forums & articles. Watched countless hours of the experts informing me of the nitrogen cycle, filtration (such the debate! HOB vs. Sponge), which fish are more tolerable to ______ water conditions....phew! Might I say, owning an aquarium is NOT for the weak or lazy (or cheapskates ) This is a dedicated hobby! After digging more into this little endeavor, I was a bit hesitant to head to my local pet store or aquatic shop. I was nervous and afraid I'd be a failure to these innocent water breathers. I wanted to be the best pet "parent" I could be, afterall!

I'd say the spark of interest really kicked in once I started seeing all the beautiful aquascapes great fish owners were flaunting (rightfully so). I didn't think a glass tub of water could look so beautiful That's when I knew, I had to take part in this wonderful hobby. I'm so glad I did...

I remember I started out with the good ol' betta fish. Their beautiful silk-like fins flowing ever so gracefully in the water was so captivating. Not to mention their awful living space - those plastic tupperware containers I was determined to be the MEGA BETTA RESCUER (sounds better when said aloud). I selected my betta, ensured the others I'd be back to save them, and gathered all the housing necessities for my new friend. To be clear, I DID NOT house my betta in a bowl! I gave him a 10g along with some amazing floaty moss balls. I card for that little guy until he took his last gill filled fish breath. I learned so much more as time went on caring for my little betta. I started wanting to learn how to care for different fish, observing different aquascape ideas, airstones and no airstones....and then it happened. I got the yearning for wanting MORE & MORE & MORE tanks! I didn't just want a 10g, oh no! I needed a 20g....then a 30g....then a 55g....and now a beautiful 75g. Even with my current 75g tank, the itch still isn't being scratched! Although, I think it has applied some temporary relief.

Well, that's kind of my story. I love the science behind the nitrogen cycle and caring for marine life. The aquascaping and endless possibilities for your underwater world. It's so neat that you get to create a little ecosystem in that glass tub of water. All while watching your citizens (fish) live their daily lives. I know I have so much more to learn, I'm eager to learn MORE! So please, enlighten me to all of your wonderful tips, suggestions, stories of your tried and true ways....and maybe someday I will have mastered the skill of freshwater keeping I can advance to SALTWATER

-Mystic

 

[Aiken Drum]

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to seeing and hearing about what you are getting up to.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi and welcome to the site.
I've been keeping fish since I was 7 years old ( in 1964) so I understand the fascination. I got hooked watching the fish in my Grandmother's tank when we would visit their apartment. 60 years later, I'm still at it even after being in the tropical fish industry for over 45 years. LOL I too went through MTS ( Multiple tank syndrome) to the point that I eventually had 22 tanks in my bedroom until we moved when I was 16. So I get it all.
As for going into saltwater, it's a whole other beast. What I used to tell my customers "upgrading" from fresh to salt was to "forget everything you know about keeping freshwater because saltwater fish are not like freshwater ones and neither are the systems." That still holds true. It's just as easy to learn how to keep a saltwater tank as it is to learn about keeping freshwater fish. With saltwater tanks, the bigger the easier. That's because when things go bad in SW, it happens quickly so the more water you have, the better the chances are you see a problem developing and can deal with it before it gets too bad. Yes, you can keep small saltwater tanks. I had one that was only 1 gallon so it can be done but it wasn't until after years of maintaining much larger tanks and systems.

I'll finish with this regarding " rescuing" fish. One of the worst things you can do is rescue fish you believe need rescuing. What it says to the store owner is that it doesn't matter how they are keeping their fish because someone will buy them anyway. It's only when they start losing money from poorly keeping their stock that they will ever change their ways. Trust me, I know. I've been on the inside.

Once again, welcome and we look forward to hearing about and seeing your tank(s).

 

[MysticSkye]

Hi and welcome to the site.
I've been keeping fish since I was 7 years old ( in 1964) so I understand the fascination. I got hooked watching the fish in my Grandmother's tank when we would visit their apartment. 60 years later, I'm still at it even after being in the tropical fish industry for over 45 years. LOL I too went through MTS ( Multiple tank syndrome) to the point that I eventually had 22 tanks in my bedroom until we moved when I was 16. So I get it all.
As for going into saltwater, it's a whole other beast. What I used to tell my customers "upgrading" from fresh to salt was to "forget everything you know about keeping freshwater because saltwater fish are not like freshwater ones and neither are the systems." That still holds true. It's just as easy to learn how to keep a saltwater tank as it is to learn about keeping freshwater fish. With saltwater tanks, the bigger the easier. That's because when things go bad in SW, it happens quickly so the more water you have, the better the chances are you see a problem developing and can deal with it before it gets too bad. Yes, you can keep small saltwater tanks. I had one that was only 1 gallon so it can be done but it wasn't until after years of maintaining much larger tanks and systems.

I'll finish with this regarding " rescuing" fish. One of the worst things you can do is rescue fish you believe need rescuing. What it says to the store owner is that it doesn't matter how they are keeping their fish because someone will buy them anyway. It's only when they start losing money from poorly keeping their stock that they will ever change their ways. Trust me, I know. I've been on the inside.

Once again, welcome and we look forward to hearing about and seeing your tank(s).

Thank you for the reply! Wow! I'm speaking with quite the master in tank owning, lol. I had a moment where I was like, "Pssh, I can do a saltwater. How different could it be from freshwater?" Oh, it's different...so I put that idea on the backburner. I don't feel I have enough knowledge and experience in freshwater, so I'll work on that before moving toward another goal.

You couldn't be more right about the rescuing fish comment. I think my heart feels a tug everytime I see those poor things sitting in those plastic tubs that couldn't even hold my leftovers. *sigh* Maybe, in some twisted way that is their sales tactic. I have found a locally owned aquatic shop that keep all their sea creatures in healthy tanks, including their bettas. It is a sacrifice at driving about 45min. to visit them, but I'd so much rather spend my money on a local couple's business than a CEO's vacation.

I checked my water parameters last night for my 75g and noticed the cycle is kicking off! Ammonia was dropping ---> nitrites were spiking ---> starting to see some nitrates! Once I have completed my cycle, I plan to pick up some fish and avoid the major pet stores.

 

[Andy Sager]

Just so you know, keeping Bettas in those smaller containers goes back hundreds of years ( Bettas were domesticated over 600 years ago) and even professional Betta farms in Asia keep their fish in containers no bigger than 1 gallon of water for the males and in some cases, even smaller jars for the females. ( Some let the females swim in ponds while others keep them in jars. ) So it's not a new sale's tactic, it's old tradition. As for stores keeping them in tanks, keeping them in tanks can sometimes actually be harder on the fish depending on the fin shapes. These overgrown fins and especially the crown tails makes it harder for the fish to swim. These fish are designed for living in containers, not fast flowing tanks. The original wild forms ( pictured here: this is a wild male. ) can swim happily in a tank.

As for seeing nitrates, if you are using the API test kit, it will test positive for nitrates when it is in fact reacting to nitrites so until you see your nitrite level go up and then start heading down, I wouldn't bother with testing nitrates. What you should do is test the water you use for the tank for nitrates so you know if any readings are coming from that. If your source water shows nitrates, you'd have to consider that when taking your readings.

We can discuss saltwater at a later time.

 

[MysticSkye]

Just so you know, keeping Bettas in those smaller containers goes back hundreds of years ( Bettas were domesticated over 600 years ago) and even professional Betta farms in Asia keep their fish in containers no bigger than 1 gallon of water for the males and in some cases, even smaller jars for the females. ( Some let the females swim in ponds while others keep them in jars. ) So it's not a new sale's tactic, it's old tradition. As for stores keeping them in tanks, keeping them in tanks can sometimes actually be harder on the fish depending on the fin shapes. These overgrown fins and especially the crown tails makes it harder for the fish to swim. These fish are designed for living in containers, not fast flowing tanks. The original wild forms ( pictured here: View attachment 392532 this is a wild male. ) can swim happily in a tank.

As for seeing nitrates, if you are using the API test kit, it will test positive for nitrates when it is in fact reacting to nitrites so until you see your nitrite level go up and then start heading down, I wouldn't bother with testing nitrates. What you should do is test the water you use for the tank for nitrates so you know if any readings are coming from that. If your source water shows nitrates, you'd have to consider that when taking your readings.

We can discuss saltwater at a later time.

Hmmm...definitely some food for thought. I figured since bettas don't naturally live in such a small space it would be bad for them. I do know the bettas are not the strongest swimmers so they can't have those fast flowing HOB's (of course, you can always mod them to not push the water so much). I know some people keep them in larger tanks, but don't fill the tank completely so it allows them to swim up easily. One thing I do wish....they could somehow train bettas to get along, lol. I'd love to have a full tank of betta fish because they are so pretty and have such a fun personality - IMO.


I'd like your opinion on my water cycling progress. Take a gander at the photos and let me know what you think!

1st image - no ammonia or nitrite - start of cycling
Image 2 - ammonia and some nitrite readings - last night (day 8)
Image 3 - slight ammonia, heavy nitrite, 10-20ppm nitrates - today (day 9)

 

[Aiken Drum]

Is this is a fishless or fish in cycle?

 

[MysticSkye]

Is this is a fishless or fish in cycle?

Fishless

 

[Aiken Drum]

I presume ammonia was added between images 1 and 2?

After 9 days you have cycled out whatever ammonia was dosed into nitrite. The nitrate will be a false positive due to the present of nitrite, so the nitrate test is pointless. But your nitrite isnt falling so its a safe assumption that the 2nd stage (nitrite to nitrate) hasnt started yet. That's pretty much where I'd expect to be after 9 days, the ammonia to nitrite stage starting to establish, the nitrite to nitrate stage might start to establish in a few more weeks. When you can dose 2ppm ammonia and see zero ammonia and nitrite 24 hours later you are cycled. Your ammonia needs redosing to 2ppm and then see how quick that cycles back down to zero.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hmmm...definitely some food for thought. I figured since bettas don't naturally live in such a small space it would be bad for them. I do know the bettas are not the strongest swimmers so they can't have those fast flowing HOB's (of course, you can always mod them to not push the water so much). I know some people keep them in larger tanks, but don't fill the tank completely so it allows them to swim up easily. One thing I do wish....they could somehow train bettas to get along, lol. I'd love to have a full tank of betta fish because they are so pretty and have such a fun personality - IMO.


I'd like your opinion on my water cycling progress. Take a gander at the photos and let me know what you think!

1st image - no ammonia or nitrite - start of cycling
Image 2 - ammonia and some nitrite readings - last night (day 8)
Image 3 - slight ammonia, heavy nitrite, 10-20ppm nitrates - today (day 9)

Actually, although wild Bettas do live in large areas of water, they don't swim around it. They find a small spot in the vegetation and stay there, build a nest in the hopes that a female will pass by and want to breed with them. Some species of wild bettas live in the water that is held in the leaves of certain plants. So it's a misnomer that they NEED large areas of water. As for them getting along, they were domesticated for fighting because their wild ancestors were fighters ( just not to the degree they eventually were bred for. ) This is why they were originally called " Siamese fighting fish" as a common name.
As for having a tank full of them, you can with females. It's much harder with males. Most successful tanks of males are ones very heavily planted, to the point that there is little swimming space so that the males can make a place for themselves outside the view of the other males. They are not a schooling fish no matter how many you put in a tank. That's just not in their genes.

As for cycling a tank, this is a picture of the nitrogen cycle in graph form:
What the fishless cycling does is skip the rise of ammonia by adding ammonia at a high level ( no greater than 2 ppm) to help induce the microbes that convert that ammonia into nitrites to flourish making the food, nitrites, for the second microbe to convert into nitrates. You can speed this process up by adding one of the 4 bacteria in a bottle products found through scientific studies to actually work. They add the microbes into the water that your tank would naturally generate over time. So this up and down "cycle" is what you are looking for. As for how long it will take, the reality is that "it takes as long as it takes" because there are water parameters that will encourage rapid growth or discourage growth of these microbes. So as you see in this graph, the test result going up will look the same as going down. It's only when you when the rise and fall that you know you how you are doing. A single pic of just one moment in time does not really tell you much of the overall.

 

[MysticSkye]

I presume ammonia was added between images 1 and 2?

After 9 days you have cycled out whatever ammonia was dosed into nitrite. The nitrate will be a false positive due to the present of nitrite, so the nitrate test is pointless. But your nitrite isnt falling so its a safe assumption that the 2nd stage (nitrite to nitrate) hasnt started yet. That's pretty much where I'd expect to be after 9 days, the ammonia to nitrite stage starting to establish, the nitrite to nitrate stage might start to establish in a few more weeks. When you can dose 2ppm ammonia and see zero ammonia and nitrite 24 hours later you are cycled. Your ammonia needs redosing to 2ppm and then see how quick that cycles back down to zero.

Yes, I have been keeping my ammonia levels high...between the 2.0ppm - 4.0ppm. The 3rd image was from this morning before adding any extra doses of ammonia. I figured I was in that "2nd stage" of the cycling as my bacteria has done some work at converting the ammonia into nitrites. I'm just keeping up with it at this point and checking to see if the nitrites are going down...then I reckon I'll see what's going on with the nitrates. My plan is adding in that final dose of ammonia, check if both the ammo and nitrites are gone within the 24hr period, and I'll be good. I have a whole printed out plan along with areas for me to mark time/levels/dosages/etc. Thanks for looking at it!

 

[MysticSkye]

Actually, although wild Bettas do live in large areas of water, they don't swim around it. They find a small spot in the vegetation and stay there, build a nest in the hopes that a female will pass by and want to breed with them. Some species of wild bettas live in the water that is held in the leaves of certain plants. So it's a misnomer that they NEED large areas of water. As for them getting along, they were domesticated for fighting because their wild ancestors were fighters ( just not to the degree they eventually were bred for. ) This is why they were originally called " Siamese fighting fish" as a common name.
As for having a tank full of them, you can with females. It's much harder with males. Most successful tanks of males are ones very heavily planted, to the point that there is little swimming space so that the males can make a place for themselves outside the view of the other males. They are not a schooling fish no matter how many you put in a tank. That's just not in their genes.

As for cycling a tank, this is a picture of the nitrogen cycle in graph form: View attachment 392536
What the fishless cycling does is skip the rise of ammonia by adding ammonia at a high level ( no greater than 2 ppm) to help induce the microbes that convert that ammonia into nitrites to flourish making the food, nitrites, for the second microbe to convert into nitrates. You can speed this process up by adding one of the 4 bacteria in a bottle products found through scientific studies to actually work. They add the microbes into the water that your tank would naturally generate over time. So this up and down "cycle" is what you are looking for. As for how long it will take, the reality is that "it takes as long as it takes" because there are water parameters that will encourage rapid growth or discourage growth of these microbes. So as you see in this graph, the test result going up will look the same as going down. It's only when you when the rise and fall that you know you how you are doing. A single pic of just one moment in time does not really tell you much of the overall.

Yup! This is the first time for me to cycle the tank from the beginning. I read another forum member's way of cycling the tank & thought it was the best way to go. So far, his very precise layout of the process is proving to work. I know I'm not done with the cycle, but I am seeing progress! The bacteria is working at lowering my ammonia, but now I need the other nitrite eating bacteria to get going to finish the process. Thanks for taking a peek and adding your input!

 

[Aiken Drum]

One thing to note is that every 1ppm of ammonia converts to 2.7ppm of nitrite (and ultimately 3.6ppm of nitrate).

So 2ppm of ammonia is going to convert to in excess of 5ppm of nitrite, and the test only goes to 5ppm after which you have no idea how much nitrite you have. Add another 2ppm ammonia the following day and thats another 5ppm nitrite on top of what you already have. Keep going for a week and you could easily have 30ppm +. You will get to the stage where nitrite is being consumed at a greater rate than it is being produced but it could take a long for however much nitrite you have to be reduced to detectable levels.

If you want to see if nitrite is being reduced, you first need to get nitrite to a detectable level, below 5ppm. And then you need to skip a day or 2 dosing ammonia, so you are only looking at the reduction side of the process.

IMO nitrite is far more likely to be a problem because a small amount of ammonia creates a larger amount of nitrite.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes, I have been keeping my ammonia levels high...between the 2.0ppm - 4.0ppm. The 3rd image was from this morning before adding any extra doses of ammonia. I figured I was in that "2nd stage" of the cycling as my bacteria has done some work at converting the ammonia into nitrites. I'm just keeping up with it at this point and checking to see if the nitrites are going down...then I reckon I'll see what's going on with the nitrates. My plan is adding in that final dose of ammonia, check if both the ammo and nitrites are gone within the 24hr period, and I'll be good. I have a whole printed out plan along with areas for me to mark time/levels/dosages/etc. Thanks for looking at it!

Stay closer to the 2 ppm. If you go too high with ammonia, that too can harm the microbes you are trying to grow. There is some information regarding this stating that the higher you go with ammonia, different microbes come into play while the ones that are active in lower levels become inactive. If you lower the ammonia, the high ammonia microbes stop functioning and the lower level ones start up again. With all that said, you have to realistically figure out what your ammonia load is going to be in the tank to determine how high you should go. There's no sense in building a high ammonia microbe bed if you aren't going to have a high ammonia output. It's like why buy a race car if you are only going to drive 55 MPH? FYI: Even my Oscar tanks, one of the dirtiest fish we can keep, never produced so much ammonia that their tank needed a high ammonia microbe bed.

 

[MysticSkye]

Stay closer to the 2 ppm. If you go too high with ammonia, that too can harm the microbes you are trying to grow. There is some information regarding this stating that the higher you go with ammonia, different microbes come into play while the ones that are active in lower levels become inactive. If you lower the ammonia, the high ammonia microbes stop functioning and the lower level ones start up again. With all that said, you have to realistically figure out what your ammonia load is going to be in the tank to determine how high you should go. There's no sense in building a high ammonia microbe bed if you aren't going to have a high ammonia output. It's like why buy a race car if you are only going to drive 55 MPH? FYI: Even my Oscar tanks, one of the dirtiest fish we can keep, never produced so much ammonia that their tank needed a high ammonia microbe bed.

Great points! I just tested tonight (day 9) and I have 0 ammonia now...still have nitrites....so ideally, and according to the plan I'm following, I should hit the tank up with more ammonia - keeping it within the 2.0ppm - to keep the good bacteria fed, correct? Or NO...wait until I see the 0 nitrite thennnnn dose it to 2.0ppm and if ammonia and nitrite are both gone in the 24hr. window...I'm good?

 

[Andy Sager]

Great points! I just tested tonight (day 9) and I have 0 ammonia now...still have nitrites....so ideally, and according to the plan I'm following, I should hit the tank up with more ammonia - keeping it within the 2.0ppm - to keep the good bacteria fed, correct? Or NO...wait until I see the 0 nitrite thennnnn dose it to 2.0ppm and if ammonia and nitrite are both gone in the 24hr. window...I'm good?

You keep adding ammonia to that 2 ppm until you start to see the nitrites falling. Once they start falling, you can reduce the amount of ammonia to say, 1 ppm and watch the nitrites for falling to 0. Once they reach 0 again, add ammonia to 1-2 PPM and test 24 hours later. IF your ammonia and nitrite are both 0 after that 24 hours, your tank is now cycled for up to 2 ppm of ammonia production. If both the ammonia and nitrite is not 0 after that 24 hours, you aren't done yet. You can stop adding ammonia and let the 2nd microbe catch up and bring the nitrites to 0. ( It should happen quickly.) Then do the 24 hour test again.

 

[MysticSkye]

We're almost there! I went ahead and tested everything because....what the heck lol. Testing the water is just fun

 

[Aiken Drum]

That's 24 hours after a 2ppm dose of ammonia?

 

[Andy Sager]

We're almost there! I went ahead and tested everything because....what the heck lol. Testing the water is just fun

Test your pH with the low range reagents.

 

[MysticSkye]

That's 24 hours after a 2ppm dose of ammonia?

No, I'm not there yet, but my nitrites are dropping and ammonia is staying at 0ppm. So, I'm assuming my nitrite eating bacteria are developing. I'll test tomorrow and see where I'm at, if I see 0 ammonia & nitrite, that's when I'll dose it 2ppm with ammonia to see if the 24hr test passes.