Help needed - tank issues

[Sarah8484]

Hey folks,

Needing some advice after we just lost our Betta.

We we got a second hand 125l tank about 3 weeks ago and in it it had a old filter which we used as we were setting things up.

We set up new substrate, plants, lava rock and used some of the old wood. We ran the tank with the Juwell internal filter with the old media for a about 1.5 weeks. Testing regularly

During this 1.5 weeks we had a huge algae bloom. I think this was our fault as, in hindsight, we way overdid the plant nutrition. To help with this we started with water changes and ordered the UV light that pairs with the new e702 filter.

We they arrived on Wednesday we set them up and added filter from the Juwell media to the the filter. We tested all water parameters and all looked good. We also added an air pump on a diffuser for some aeration.

Then comes the story of Mazu our little female Betta. We had seen her in the pet shop over the last few weeks as we were getting the tank ready (multiple trips as we learned more about how complex this hobby is ). She was in a tank with another female Betta who was nipping her and when we saw her she was always sat at the top of the tank quite unresponsive so seeing this made us want to rescue her.

We brought her home late Wednesday evening after testing all the water parameters. At first she seemed okay and quite curious and had a swim around and found some places to hide but from there she just seemed as she was in the pet shop and a bit less responsive each day. Yesterday we checked on her and she was deep in some moss and she'd passed

Now we are wondering what mistakes we made that may have contributed to this and how to try and make sure we don't have the same going forward.

Here's some things we think we think we did wrong and some things we need advice on:

- Fed her too much - initially she ate a lot but I think this was not good overall
- Fiddled with the tank too much trying to make it just right- we did 2 water changes (one very small and one larger) that I think added to her stress - AI got us all worried about the oxygen levels
- Potentially top strong a current before we angled the spray bar at the wall (but again this meant fiddling in her space).

These are our questions that we don't have answers for and are curious on before we move forward.

1. What's the right level of aeration and current? Is the spray bar enough? Do we need the pump too? Angled as it is now the plants move very little (see pics for how it is now).
2. How big an issue is the algae? We were told that the UV filter would cause a die off and lead to an oxygen crash which is why we got the diffuser but are we overthinking this and making it worse??
3. The thermometer showed 29 degrees but the heater was set to 26.5 - is this normal?
4. We plan to have one Betta, 6-8 panda corys and 10-14 lamb chop Rasboras in the 125l tank
5. We got my son a 55l tank that he wants just a male betta in. It was the tetra starter tank that comes with filter, heater etc - does this seem okay for one male? Should we cycle with our media even though we had the Algae bloom?

Sorry for the long post and thanks of you got this far - really appreciate any help!

Sarah

 

[Aiken Drum]

I think your biggest mistake here was purchasing a betta that wasn't in good shape to start with. If you want to rescue sick, injured fish then go for it, but they aren't always going to recover. Personally leave the poor quality fish in the store. If people buy them, what's the incentive for the store to up their game?

What are your water parameters?

In answer to your specific questions though.

1. How much flow and aeration is situational. Some fish prefer high levels of flow, some don't. As long as the surface is being agitated by the filter, there is going to be enough O2. Adding an airstone is a good idea if your filtration doesn't provide any surface agitation, and even if the filter is doing a good job, an airstone won't hurt anything.

Specifically bettas don't like a lot of water flow. It makes it difficult for them to get around with those flowing fins, tires them out, causes stess which leads to ill health. They are also what's called labyrinthine fish, which means they can breathe air from the surface if needed. Their natural habitat is puddles of water. It is possible for bettas to "drown" if they need a gulp of air from the surface and can't get there, either because the tank is too deep or flow prevents them getting where they need to go.

2. Algae isn't a problem at all. It's just unsightly. UV will only kill algae spores that pass through the unit. So it will have a good chance of curing green water, but if algae is growing in your aquarium (aquascape, substrate, glass etc) the UV won't do anything. You control algae by controlling nutrients and controlling light. Make sure your aquarium is cycled, make sure you keep on top of water changes, make sure you don't overfeed your fish, keep live plants to compete with the algae for nutrients, don't place your aquarium anywhere near natural daylight, 6 to 8 hours a day for the aquarium light. Controlling algae is a long term solution, don't expect overnight fixes.

3. Yes it's normal for a thermometer to show a different temperature to what you set your heater. Use the thermometer to adjust the heater. If you want 24c and the thermometer says 27c but the heater is set to 24c, keep turning the heater down until the thermometer shows the temperature you want. You might find as you go into summer you need to turn the heater down more, and in the winter turn it up again. Your temperature may fluctuate throughout the year. Depends on how good the thermostat on the heater is, how well water circulates round the tank. I've had heaters that need periodic adjusting, I've had heaters that kept the temperature steady all year.

5. Keeping bettas with other fish is risky. It will all come down to the temperament of individual fish. One betta might simply not accept company of any kind, and go on a killing spree, another betta with a calmer temperament might be fine. One group of rasboras might be calm and placid, a different group of the same species might fin nip the betta to death. Keeping other fish with bettas is for your benefit, not the bettas. A betta is perfectly happy in a 20 litre aquarium on its own. Try and look at compatibility with other species, make sure your aquarium is big enough so everything can find its own space, and add the betta last so it won't have decided the whole tank is its territory and be more likely to share. Have a plan in case it goes wrong.

In your specific case, your aquarium is big enough and the fish compatibility is good. You have a good chance it will work. But after a week, a few months or years, you could wake up to a tankful of dead fish and a triumphant betta lording over its territory. Again keeping bettas with other fish is for your benefit, not the bettas.

5. 50 litres is a good size for a single betta. Bigger than most would get. If your other aquarium is cycled using some filter media from there will help cycle the new aquarium. You risk transferring any pathogens across to the new tank, you don't really know if the original betta in your aquarium was carrying anything. You will likely be transferring algae spores, but algae spores will always find their way into the aquarium if the conditions suit. I can't tell you how risk averse to be. Cycling a 50 litre aquarium with one betta in it from scratch shouldn't be a challenge if you do it properly.

 

[Sarah8484]

This is super helpful! We are out at the moment and will come back soon

 

[Sarah8484]

Thank again for the reply.

We have been testing the water values but now i look at the posts here i think we missed Nitrate - didn't get this advice from the shop here they were more concerned that we get Ammonia up and then down.

These are the results from yesterday.

Ph=6.8
Ammonia =0
Nitrite =0

We have the seachem continuous monitoring on and have also just ordered the more comprehensive JBL test kit.

On the surface movement I think we have that better now - will likely use the diffuser on super low here and there but there's enough movement.

We did have some unusually sunny days in Norway so it probably had more sun than normal. We will make sure the blinds are kept shut too so it doesn't get baked

We had heard that it might be better to take a female that's already in a communal tank for mixing but I hear your warnings that it's not without risk. I guess the tanks a little on the bog size for one Betta? The reason we thought Bettas is as they seem to have a bit more personality but is there anything else you would recommend?

We were thinking of adding plants and water to my son's 55l tank tomorrow and we have just ordered some pure ammonia after reading your post so maybe we wait until thats here. Hes keen to get his fish asap but given recent events we want to do it properly ø.

Our plan today is to do a water change in the 125l and have a clean of things and then retest everything over the next few days. When do you think it would be safe to introduce another fish? Normal cycling results? We will have the nitrate test as part of the kit here in a few days hopefully.

Thanks again for the help

Edit to add: forgot to mention, I totally hear you on the mercy mission - I'm a sucker for a hard luck case. I'd never be able to visit the RSPCA

 

[Sarah8484]

Hi again,

We are still waiting on the new bigger testing kit (delivery takes ages in Norway ) but the ammonia and nitrite are still 0.

We are wondering if it matters that part of the surface is very still and we don't see much movement int the plants. In the picture we have some still patches where the frog bit is.

Also we've received mixed advice on what to introduce first - what would you guys recommend? Does it matter? (We won't introduce until we are happy with the water tests)

Thanks

 

[Aiken Drum]

Your cycle is something that grows and dies off with the amount of ammonia present. If you remove fish from an aquarium, your cycle starts to die off, if you add more fish your cycle needs to establish more and catch up to the higher amount of ammonia present.

At most your cycle will have established enough for the one fish you had, and since the fish died your cycle will also be dying off due to a lack of food source.

Going forward, you can either go with a fishless cycle using the ammonia you mention, knowing that you have a bit of a head start. Once complete you could add your fish pretty much together, leaving the betta last. Maybe adding half the rasboras first, checking your water parameters don't elevate over a few days, then adding a few corys, again checking water parameters over a few days, then the remaining rasboras, then the remaining corye and the betta last.

If you wanted to go down the fish in cycle route, I would start with 3 or 4 rasboras, over a few months as your cycle establishes add in all the rasboras, then the corys then the betta last.

The fish most tolerant of poor water quality is the betta, but it will be least tolerant to tank mates and you don't want it getting used to having the tank to itself. So that would go last IMO. Of the corys and rasboras, the rasboras are more tolerant of poor water quality, so I would introduce those before the corys. You could go betta first, remove it temporarily, rearrange the aquascape to reset the territory, add some other fish, then reintroduce the betta if you prefer.

What your water parameters are without any fish or ammonia going in is kind of irrelevant. Those parameters will stay the same because there is nothing going into the water to change them.

You have an airstone in the tank, oxygenation will be fine.

 

[Sarah8484]

Thanks, I didn't realise the cycle died off - every day is really a school day at the moment!

We want to do fishless cycling with both tanks so we'll follow the instructions once the ammonia and test kit arrive.

I'll update with parameters once we've started. Thanks again for the help!

 

[Aiken Drum]

Your cycle is a live dynamic thing. The nitrogen cycle functions by microbes consuming fish waste. There are types of microbes that consume ammonia and release nitrite as a waste product, and then different microbes consume nitrite releasing nitrate as waste. Fish are more tolerant of nitrate in the water than ammonia or nitrite and you control nitrate levels to acceptable levels with your regular water changes. These microbes live on surfaces in your aquarium where there is good flow of oxygenated water, so this will be mostly living on your filter media in your filter, but also on your aquascape, substrate, the glass your aquarium is made of. Your aquarium doesn't come with these microbes built in, and cycling is the process you go through to grow enough of these microbes to consume all the waste your fish produce.

There is no such thing really as being "cycled". There is just being cycled enough to consume all the waste your fish currently produce. If you add more fish you won't have enough microbes, and so your water parameters will elevate until the microbes grow in numbers until they are sufficient to consume the higher amount of waste. If you remove fish, then the number of microbes will die off to match the amount of food available to them. As your fish grow in size the amount of waste will also increase, and the number of microbes will also grow to eat that waste.

Let's say 1 fish needs 1 million microbes to consume all the waste. If you only have 1 fish, only 1 million microbes will grow. If you add another 9 fish, you will then need 10 million microbes, but only have 1 million. Until the number of microbes grows in number waste will build up, and you need to intervene with water changes to keep the parameters at non toxic levels. So its better to add fish in small numbers to minimise the waste build-up and make it easier for your cycle to catch up. Over the course of time, 5 of the fish die and aren't replaced. The number of microbes will die off until there are 5 million, enough to consume the waste of 5 fish. If you then add back the 5 fish, it will again take time for your cycle to catch up and those additional 5 million microbes to grow.

A fishless cycle artificially doses ammonia as a food source, so those microbes can grow, and you don't put fish at risk by having them in an uncycled aquarium. Through trial and error, it's pretty much settled that when you can cycle out 2ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, you will have enough of those microbes to support a normally stocked aquarium.

Let's take your sons 50 litre aquarium, and say normally stocked that's 10 small fish. After completing your fishless cycle you add the betta, the number of microbes will be more than sufficient to consume the waste of that 1 small fish. But gradually your cycle will die off until it will only support that one fish. If in the future you decide to keep a school of 10 tetras instead of the betta, you can either go through a fishless cycle to re-establish your cycle to a level to support those 10 fish or go through a fish in cycle process to increase the number of fish gradually in a safe manner as your cycle grows.

 

[Sarah8484]

Hi again,

We still don't have the full test kit bit added ammonia the last couple of days.

Todays reading
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0.6

We will keep testing and test nitrate once it arrives.

We also have 3 snails that have appeared I guess they hitchhiked on the plants - they are super tiny.

Thanks
Sarah

 

[Aiken Drum]

The 3 snails will turn into hundreds. Honestly, take this opportunity to completely break down the aquarium, throw away the plants, substrate, filter media etc, anything that can't be treated with bleach. Sterilise everything with bleach and start again. You could bleach treat plants, but they haven't established yet so just toss them and get new.

It's going to be easier to deal with them now than it will be when you get fish. Pest snails are a real pain. Once they are in your aquarium they are there to stay. If you see 3, there will be more that you don't see. There will be eggs that haven't hatched yet. They will be in your filtration. If you don't deal with them now removing them will become a frequent chore to prevent them over populating. And once you have got a clean tank be much more careful going forward that you don't reintroduce pest snails. You know that the plants where infected so don't get plants from there again, or at least learn to sterilise plants (there are a few effective methods). Or better still buy the packaged Tropica plants, because they been cultivated in a clean environment and are guaranteed to be snail and algae spores free. Tropica do sell some bunched plants that they didn't cultivated themselves and these don't come with the same guarantee, so check the packaging.

I really can't stress how much you don't want pest snails and how much easier it will be do something about it now. I have 1 aquarium with pest snails, and I'm waiting for a good opportunity to start it again, knowing I will have to replace all the filter media and substrate etc and cycle it again, and sterilise and quarantine any plants I want to keep. It has really spoiled my enjoyment of that aquarium. The snails must have somehow come in with shrimp I bought.

 

[Robbo80]

Absolutely spot on there. I really thought i checked my plants thoroughly but alas I see lots of small snails, possibly ramshorn. Having just cycled my aquarium i don't want to rip everything out. I might introduce a few Assassin snails and hope for the best.