High ammonia

[Sushipops]

Good evening, at christmas my Fluval U3 underwater filter broke, the parameters were all good before that, I have 120 litres, 1 goldfish. I then purchased an allponds solutions external filter but I just didn’t think it was working properly and was quite loud so I bought another Fluval U3. The tank was cloudy for a bit, I kept some bacteria from when I had the previous Fluval filter and moved some bacteria from the external into this one.
I have had a problem with ammonia and PH ever since changing and I’m stuck what to do next. The nitrites are 0, nitrates are 5ppm, the PH used to be 7 now mostly 6.4 and the ammonia is always 0.25 - 0.50 even after water changes. I have used ammonia remover which removes it for a day then the ammonia is back, I’m just not sure how much water I should be changing and if I should be doing this daily?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Louise

 

[chokkymommybeez]

25% daily water changes

 

[Aiken Drum]

Test for ammonia and nitrite daily. Add the results together. If that combined total is higher than 0.5ppm change water to bring it below that 0.5ppm combined target.

A 50% water change should half the ammonia and nitrite level.

So if today you have 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite, that's 0.5ppm combined. No need to change water. Tomorrow's test results might be 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite. That's 0.75mm combined and a 50% water change will bring levels below that 0.5ppm target.

 

[Andy Sager]

The good news is that at pH levels below 7.0, toxic ammonia is converted to non toxic ammonium so the presence of ammonia at 6.4 pH is not an issue that is going to hurt the fish.
The bad news is that 120L is too small of a tank for goldfish. Goldfish are very dirty fish and you need the larger water volume to keep the parameters from going to extremes too quickly. The ammonia/ammonium level is not going down via nitrification because at lower pH levels, nitrification slows down even to the point that below 6.0, it eventually stops all together. Maximum nitrification occurs at pH levels from 7.5 to 8.0 and temperatures between mid 70s to mid 80s. So in your case, as long as your pH remains under 7.0 or better yet closer to that 6.4, the fish should not have any issues from water parameters. This also means that if you have an ammonium level that is .50 ppm and you change too much water that it raises the pH above 7.0, you will have .5 ppm of toxic ammonia in the water which is very toxic to the fish. This means you are better off changing smaller volumes of water daily than larger volumes of water less frequently.
As for why your ammonia/ammonium level keeps rising daily is basically a math problem. If your level was .25ppm and you changed 25% of the water, you reduced the level to .1875 ppm. If it goes back up to .25ppm in 24 hours, it means that your fish is creating .0625ppm of ammonia via respiration, defecation and/or uneaten food every 24 hours and the lower the pH goes, the more work you are going to need to do daily to keep the tank looking clean and being healthy for the fish to live in.
So all this means that you have to choose whether to keep the goldfish or rehome him/her and get fish more appropriate for a 120L tank. What you choose will determine what you need to do for the tank daily.

 

[Andy Sager]

Test for ammonia and nitrite daily. Add the results together. If that combined total is higher than 0.5ppm change water to bring it below that 0.5ppm combined target.

A 50% water change should half the ammonia and nitrite level.

So if today you have 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite, that's 0.5ppm combined. No need to change water. Tomorrow's test results might be 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite. That's 0.75mm combined and a 50% water change will bring levels below that 0.5ppm target.

Check the pH. At 6.4, Ammonia is not the problem.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I still think its worth keeping ammonia under control. It's not like it's going to take all that much effort as the ammonia levels aren't running away.

The aquarium has historically had a stable pH of 7, and there is no reason to presume that it won't stabilise there again. At which point ammonia toxicity comes into play again.

It's far easier to say keep ammonia and nitrite below a target level, than it is to say keep ammonia below x if your pH is y, and keep nitrite below a if your pH is b.

The aquarium will cycle, it might take a little longer at the detected pH, but it will get there. And water changes will help with that process. And there is nitrite toxicity to account for too, so having a target to control ammonia and nitrite covers both bases.

 

[Andy Sager]

I still think its worth keeping ammonia under control. It's not like it's going to take all that much effort as the ammonia levels aren't running away.

The aquarium has historically had a stable pH of 7, and there is no reason to presume that it won't stabilise there again. At which point ammonia toxicity comes into play again.

It's far easier to say keep ammonia and nitrite below a target level, than it is to say keep ammonia below x if your pH is y, and keep nitrite below a if your pH is b.

The aquarium will cycle, it might take a little longer at the detected pH, but it will get there. And water changes will help with that process. And there is nitrite toxicity to account for too, so having a target to control ammonia and nitrite covers both bases.

Yes, but at this point in time, it's not a " panic mode" situation that needs correction immediately. That's al I'm sayin'

 

[Sushipops]

Thank you all so much for your replies, so the ammonia was getting higher almost looked to be at 1.0 so I have removed all of the sand which was green when I was removing it from the tank and I thought this would solve the problem, no. Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, PH up to 6.8 and Ammonia still at 0.25, why won’t this ammonia go.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you all so much for your replies, so the ammonia was getting higher almost looked to be at 1.0 so I have removed all of the sand which was green when I was removing it from the tank and I thought this would solve the problem, no. Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, PH up to 6.8 and Ammonia still at 0.25, why won’t this ammonia go.

Most likely because the fish is too big for the tank. Fish produce ammonia through breathing and pooping. You can't stop them breathing LOL and you shouldn't stop them from pooping. That leaves not enough water to dilute the ammonia coming from the fish.
Even tho .25 ppm of ammonia is not considered dangerous, as I explained earlier, if you raise the pH higher than it is ( 6.8), the ammonium becomes toxic ammonia and the level can get dangerous to fish much faster. There are ammonia absorbing pads and other products for the filters to remove the ammonia but in the end, you will spend a fortune on them when a larger tank should solve the problem.

 

[Sushipops]

Hi, I appreciate I do need a bigger tank, I’ve had him 4 years and the tanks have been getting bigger and bigger, I’ve just never in this time had any problems at all with ammonia until changing the filter.

 

[Aiken Drum]

While you made some effort to transfer over microbes when you started your new filtration, it's not likely you retained it all, so your cycle will need to catch up. While your cycle is catching up, then ammonia and nitrite is likely to show up in your water testing for a while.

When you say you "I kept some bacteria from when I had the previous Fluval filter and moved some bacteria from the external into this one", what precisely did you do?

And it could just be your fish has outgrown the capability of your aquarium and filtration. A U3 filter is really only good for a 100 litre aquarium, and you need double filtration for goldfish, so even the bigger U4 isn't really big enough. The canister was the better idea. If you like fluval then a 407 would be good filtration for 1 or 2 goldfish in a 200 litre aquarium.

 

[Sushipops]

I kept an old sponge and carbon from the previous filter, I just cannot get any help from anywhere as to what to do apart from get a bigger tank, I’ve never had ammonia for over 4 years and now it’s such a problem, I’m getting really stressed about it, could it be that the ammonia is in the filter? I now have no substrate after removing the sand last night and the ammonia is still there

 

[Aiken Drum]

No, ammonia isnt coming from in your filter. That's not how it works. Ammonia is coming from your fish, and your cycle isn't removing it because you changed the filtration.

Reusing a sponge will have retained some of those microbes, but not enough to be considered fully cycled. Reusing charcoal is completely pointless.

You need to cycle the aquarium again. Assuming your filtration is big enough, then it's just a matter of doing water changes when parameters get elevated as described in my post #3. It might take a few weeks, and you may need to do frequent water changes during this time.

Yes, your fish will benefit from a bigger aquarium. Your filtration simply may not be sufficient to cycle out the waste now the fish is bigger, and the aquarium just may not be big enough to sufficiently dilute the waste.

As Andy has pointed out, at acidic pH levels, ammonia just isn't toxic, so there is no need to get stressed about it as your fish isnt at risk from the levels of ammonia you report. But you do need to keep up with water changes to ensure things don't get to toxic levels. Your cycle will establish (assuming your filtration is sufficient, which it may not be). And consider that bigger aquarium and filtration system.

Unfortunately, just because you haven't encountered ammonia before, doesn't mean you won't going forward. As fish get older, they get bigger and they produce more waste (ammonia).

Removing the substrate was a really bad idea. Those microbes responsible for your cycle will be living in the substrate, and you have thrown them away. So you have worsened your issue. You really need to accept that the ammonia is coming from the fish, and stop looking for other sources.

What kind of goldfish is it? A common goldfish or fancy goldfish? How big is it?

Common goldfish in particular just dont suit aquariums, they really belong outside in a pond.

 

[Sushipops]

Thank you again for your advice it has been very helpful, I couldn’t give him away even if I knew someone with a pond I love him too much, I will be getting a bigger tank soon. He is so beautiful

 

[Sushipops]

Hi all, sorry me again. So the ammonia issue still going between .25-.5 doing 50-80% water changes every day, can I do water changes every other day and use Seachem Amguard to protect my fish in the meantime

 

[Aiken Drum]

If your pH stays below 7, then essentially all your ammonia is non-toxic ammonium rather than toxic free ammonia. So even at ammonia levels in excess of 4ppm it shouldn't be toxic.

Keeping ammonia at low levels is a good habit however. If you want to rely on the low pH or chemical intervention, that's your choice. Its not something i would do or recommend. Your water chemistry is still settling down, so pH might not stay acidic long term, in which case your ammonia might suddenly become toxic. Relying on chemicals, it's only a temporary solution and doesn't help with establishing your cycle.

I'll throw in another option though. Get a seachem ammonia alert patch. This patch measures toxic free ammonia only, so it gives you a clear easy to read measure of how toxic the water is with regards to ammonia. Most aquarium tests are for total ammonia nitrogen, which is free ammonia + ammonium combined. So with a test kit you can be measuring really high ammonia, but if the pH is low it's still at safe levels. If the patch stays in the safe non toxic band it should be safe to cut back on the water changes are little.

But non of this addresses the undersized aquarium and filtration. It may be unless you upgrade your equipment your tank is never able to cycle out the waste and you are stuck forever doing water changes to control ammonia.

Are we seeing any nitrite in the testing at all?

 

[Sushipops]

Hello, thanks again for your reply, I have the Seachem alert patch and it is always showing safe but is this reliable ? Carried out a 60% water change, The Nitrites are 0, however the PH has increased to 7.3, the Nitrates are under 5ppm but the ammonia is still .25. I checked inside the filter, it has been running for 6 weeks and it was clean, previously it would have been really dirty inside by now.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I would say the patch is reliable. At least as reliable as your ammonia test. As said the ammonia test isnt even testing for the bit thats harmful to fish, whereas the patch specifically is. What may not be reliable is your pH level. If the pH rises then more of your ammonia becomes toxic free ammonia. The patch should then pick that up as an alert level, but it would then be down to you to keep an eye on the patch. Much easier to do that than testing every 10 minutes though.

Where the patch isn't helpful though is nitrite. As your cycle establishes and ammonia starts to turn to nitrite it wont tell you that. All the water changes you are doing to control ammonia are also keeping nitrite in check. If you cut back on water changes because the patch is telling you it's safe, you could unknowingly allow nitrite to increase to similarly toxic levels.

 

[Sushipops]

Thank you, I really do appreciate all of your advice, so do you think I can water change every other day instead of daily to allow some bacteria to grow, I literally cannot understand how the media and foams in the filter are still not really dirty