I need help with ich!!

[stone17]

I am new to the aquarium hobby (a little over a year).
This is not my first tank with ich but it is my first tank that has scale less fish (kuhli loach and snails) in it that does have ich.
In the tank I have a giant betta (he's very chill), two guppies, and three kuhli loach, (because of ich we have lost all but one of the neon tetra, but I believe that it is not going to make it).
Previously with my other tanks I have just used super ich cure and it worked great. However, after doing extensive research I found that it wasnt the best to use with my scale less fish. I went to my local aquarium store and they told me not to use Ich-x on my scale less as well and suggested Microbe Lift Herbtana. We are day 4 into the treatment and it doesnt seem to be working.
My betta has become super lethargic and wont eat so I am worried that it is getting worse. We have a heater coming today so that we can bump the water temp from 78 to roughly 82 (progressively).
Will the heat help to kill the ich because it prevent breeding?
Im just unsure what to do at this point because all the tetra died and the guppies and kuhli loach only have small infections but are acting completely fine. I am more worried about my betta though as he seems to be really sick.
Should I remove the snails and kuhli loach to a hospital tank and treat the betta and guppies how I normally would? Do I had stress coat along with the Microbe Lift? Will the heat be the fix I am looking for? Do I increase the heat to 86 even though its not an optimal range for the guppies or beta to kill the ich, if I do this will I need an air stone for them (currently have a filter running that gives water movement)?

Would love some advice and suggestions as I feel like I am reaching the point where I cant find anymore research for this problem.
Also If I turn up the heat to 86 do I do so slowly over a few days? or can I just turn the heater up to that and it will slowly do it anyways? Do I need to add an air stone to the tank because of the rise in heat?

Thanks in advance

 

[Andy Sager]

Unfortunately, once ick is on a fish, it's spores are in the tank so you need to treat the whole tank.
Regarding using temperature alone, you will need to raise the temp to at least 84F-86F degrees to speed up the life cycle of the parasite. At that temperature, you will also need to increase the aeration to compensate for the lack of oxygen. You can read about the life cycle of the parasite here: https://aquaculture.ca.uky.edu/site...edu/files/srac_476_ich_white_spot_disease.pdf

Another option: If you have a bare hospital tank that all your fish can be in, you can remove all the fish, crank up the temp quickly to 86-88 degrees in the main tank and leave it like that for a week and the parasites should be gone. Because the parasite are producing hundreds of babies that will need to find a host within 48 hours, you will need to be siphoning the bottom of the hospital tank daily to remove any parasites that have left the fish to reproduce.

If you just want to medicate the fish in the main tank, Kordon Rid-Ick and Hikari Ick-X are supposed to be safe for scaleless fish when used as directed. Understanding the life cycle of the parasite, it will take longer for the parasites to be gone this way because the parasites are not subject to medication in every stage of their life.

Hope this helps

 

[stone17]

Unfortunately, once ick is on a fish, it's spores are in the tank so you need to treat the whole tank.
Regarding using temperature alone, you will need to raise the temp to at least 84F-86F degrees to speed up the life cycle of the parasite. At that temperature, you will also need to increase the aeration to compensate for the lack of oxygen. You can read about the life cycle of the parasite here: https://aquaculture.ca.uky.edu/site...edu/files/srac_476_ich_white_spot_disease.pdf

Another option: If you have a bare hospital tank that all your fish can be in, you can remove all the fish, crank up the temp quickly to 86-88 degrees in the main tank and leave it like that for a week and the parasites should be gone. Because the parasite are producing hundreds of babies that will need to find a host within 48 hours, you will need to be siphoning the bottom of the hospital tank daily to remove any parasites that have left the fish to reproduce.

If you just want to medicate the fish in the main tank, Kordon Rid-Ick and Hikari Ick-X are supposed to be safe for scaleless fish when used as directed. Understanding the life cycle of the parasite, it will take longer for the parasites to be gone this way because the parasites are not subject to medication in every stage of their life.

Hope this helps

Thank you so much, super helpful! So it says the life cycle of ich is roughly 4 days at a higher temp. How long would you recommend I keep my tank at this temp? A week? Or more?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you so much, super helpful! So it says the life cycle of ich is roughly 4 days at a higher temp. How long would you recommend I keep my tank at this temp? A week? Or more?

You have to realize that the ones that reproduce within 4 days will have offspring that will reproduce within another 4 days after hatching and those offspring will then reproduce within another 4 days. Heat alone will not kill the parasites unless you raise the temp to a level higher than the fish can usually handle. You need to either break the cycle by removing the host(s) or medicate the offspring when they are susceptible to medication.
Assuming you are removing the hosts and only raising the temp to 86 degrees, you would need to heat for 7- 8 days That way, if the current ones reproduced in 4 days from today, those offspring would have 48 hours to find another host which is 6 days from today. Throw in a couple more days " just to be sure" and the parasites should be dead. If you don't have any live plants or other live items in the tank and you raised the temp to 88-90, all of the parasites would be dead within 6 days.

 

[stone17]

You have to realize that the ones that reproduce within 4 days will have offspring that will reproduce within another 4 days after hatching and those offspring will then reproduce within another 4 days. Heat alone will not kill the parasites unless you raise the temp to a level higher than the fish can usually handle. You need to either break the cycle by removing the host(s) or medicate the offspring when they are susceptible to medication.
Assuming you are removing the hosts and only raising the temp to 86 degrees, you would need to heat for 7- 8 days That way, if the current ones reproduced in 4 days from today, those offspring would have 48 hours to find another host which is 6 days from today. Throw in a couple more days " just to be sure" and the parasites should be dead. If you don't have any live plants or other live items in the tank and you raised the temp to 88-90, all of the parasites would be dead within 6 days.

Okay thanks, I am unable to remove the hosts currently from the tank, but I am treating the water with Microbe Lift Herbtana (hopefully it works) but have tried to raise it to 86 degrees. However half the tank does not seem to be as warm, should I bump up the heater a degree to try and get the rest of the tank there?

My betta seems to not be doing well and is pretty lethargic, breathing pretty heavy and refusing to eat. Do you think that he will make it that long? Or should I get a small hospital tank (like a temporary holding container 1.7 gal?) and use super ich cure? It calls for 5ml/5gal, could I just do 1ml/1gal to treat him in? Then leave the others (that appear to be handling the ick well)?

 

[Andy Sager]

It sounds like you need better circulation in the tank. I would address that more than raising the temp higher. Add an airstone in the middle of the tank with good flow to create current on both sides or add a circulating pump/ powerhead to better circulate the heated water throughout the tank.
Bettas are not usually active swimmers but ICK actually starts in the gills so that may be why the heavy breathing. You can try treating him with a salt dip to help kill the parasites in the gills. In a separate container, use 1 tablespoon of non iodized salt per 1 gallon of water and leave the fish in the dip for no more than 5 minutes. After the dip, place the betta in a separate hospital tank with new clean heated water and not back in the main tank. Once the fish is cured or back to feeding and your main tank's parasite issue is solved, the betta can be moved back into the main tank. The Microbe Lift Herbtana is a new product to me but I have been reading mixed reviews on it's success.
On a side note, when fish reach a point of bad health that they stop eating, there is a 50/50 chance that they are too far gone to be cured. I say this not to be a downer or for you to give up hope but to inform you of the realities of sick fish. As long as the fish is breathing there is hope but no guarantees.

 

[stone17]

Okay thanks, I am unable to remove the hosts currently from the tank, but I am treating the water with Microbe Lift Herbtana (hopefully it works) but have tried to raise it to 86 degrees. However half the tank does not seem to be as warm, should I bump up the heater a degree to try and get the rest of the tank there?

My betta seems to not be doing well and is pretty lethargic, breathing pretty heavy and refusing to eat. Do you think that he will make it that long? Or should I get a small hospital tank to treat him in and leave the others (that appear to be handling the ick well)?

It sounds like you need better circulation in the tank. I would address that more than raising the temp higher. Add an airstone in the middle of the tank with good flow to create current on both sides or add a circulating pump/ powerhead to better circulate the heated water throughout the tank.
Bettas are not usually active swimmers but ICK actually starts in the gills so that may be why the heavy breathing. You can try treating him with a salt dip to help kill the parasites in the gills. In a separate container, use 1 tablespoon of non iodized salt per 1 gallon of water and leave the fish in the dip for no more than 5 minutes. After the dip, place the betta in a separate hospital tank with new clean heated water and not back in the main tank. Once the fish is cured or back to feeding and your main tank's parasite issue is solved, the betta can be moved back into the main tank. The Microbe Lift Herbtana is a new product to me but I have been reading mixed reviews on it's success.
On a side note, when fish reach a point of bad health that they stop eating, there is a 50/50 chance that they are too far gone to be cured. I say this not to be a downer or for you to give up hope but to inform you of the realities of sick fish. As long as the fish is breathing there is hope but no guarantees.

I already have an airs tone and a filter that seems to circulate the water well since its only a ten gallon. Maybe I just need to wait and remeasure the temperature later. Will a small temporary holding tank with a small heater in it work to hold him? Should I only do this dip once, if more than once how often? Will Morton brand non-ionized salt work or should I use aquarium salt? Sorry I have so many questions I just have never had an extreme ich issue like this before. I appreciate all the help.

 

[Andy Sager]

I already have an airs tone and a filter that seems to circulate the water well since its only a ten gallon. Maybe I just need to wait and remeasure the temperature later. Will a small temporary holding tank with a small heater in it work to hold him? Should I only do this dip once, if more than once how often? Will Morton brand non-ionized salt work or should I use aquarium salt? Sorry I have so many questions I just have never had an extreme ich issue like this before. I appreciate all the help.

Unfortunately, if one side of the tank is not getting heated as well as the other side, especially in such a small tank, means you do not have good circulation or your heater is too small.
Yes, Morton's non iodized salt will work. Non iodized salt is non iodized salt no matter the brand.
Yes you can use a small tank with heater as the hospital tank for the Betta. ( I use a 2 gallon tank for this.)
Dip the fish once but if there is no improvement in 2 -3 days, dip again. The belief was that the osmotic difference in the salt water to the freshwater would cause the parasites to burst. If you look it up online, the general info is that the salt causes the parasites to detach and dehydrate. I just know that usually one dip was all it took for me to kill off parasites of multiple species. It will then take a few days for the gills to heal up so the fix will not appear instantly.

 

[stone17]

Unfortunately, if one side of the tank is not getting heated as well as the other side, especially in such a small tank, means you do not have good circulation or your heater is too small.
Yes, Morton's non iodized salt will work. Non iodized salt is non iodized salt no matter the brand.
Yes you can use a small tank with heater as the hospital tank for the Betta. ( I use a 2 gallon tank for this.)
Dip the fish once but if there is no improvement in 2 -3 days, dip again. The belief was that the osmotic difference in the salt water to the freshwater would cause the parasites to burst. If you look it up online, the general info is that the salt causes the parasites to detach and dehydrate. I just know that usually one dip was all it took for me to kill off parasites of multiple species. It will then take a few days for the gills to heal up so the fix will not appear instantly.

Okay thank you. I'm going to try this. I know you said 1 tablespoon per gallon of water but online it says 1 tablespoon per 3. Will the 1 tablespoon be okay for a 1 gallon?

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay thank you. I'm going to try this. I know you said 1 tablespoon per gallon of water but online it says 1 tablespoon per 3. Will the 1 tablespoon be okay for a 1 gallon?

1 tablespoon for 3 gallons is for a salt bath where the fish needs to be in the water for 20-30 minutes that needs to be repeated multiple times. You are doing a dip which is a stronger solution and for a very short amount of time. Because the fish is breathing heavily, the chances are his gills are heavily parasitized so you need something that will work quickly.

 

[stone17]

Thanks for all the help sadly when I got home from work today he was dead…

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for all the help sadly when I got home from work today he was dead…

Sorry to hear. Hopefully he will be the last of the casualties from this.

 

[stone17]

Sorry to hear. Hopefully he will be the last of the casualties from this.

Thanks, honestly he was the biggest casualty. Only three loaches left and they seem untouched by ich and have the entire time. So hopefully

 

[Aiken Drum]

Could I just go back to your post #1. You say you are new to the hobby, and this isn't your first outbreak of ich.

Could you tell us more about that, because it shouldn't be happening. Are all these outbreaks in the same aquarium and it's a case of not treating the issue correctly? Are we talking multiple tanks, and your fish store is repeatedly selling you infected fish or the infection is spreading from one tank to another?

It sounds like you arent dealing with the problem, however the problem may be occurring. Either your treatment isn't fully eradicating the issue, or you arent properly managing infection control between tanks, or you need to look at sourcing fish from somewhere else. A quarantine tank sounds like a must for you so you arent adding infected fish into your display tank.

 

[stone17]

Yes it happened in two different tanks and the other ich outbreak I treated a lot more harshly (with chemicals) because I had no scale less fish or snails in the tank.

It was definitely a sourcing issue with the fish as that tank that the most recent outbreak happened had been running without tetra in it for about three months. I added tetra and that’s when it all started. Needless to say now all the fish in that tank are dead except for the loaches and I will NEVER get fish from the store that I did ever again, first and last time I ever buy there again. Especially cause it killed my very loved betta fish.

 

[stone17]

Could I just go back to your post #1. You say you are new to the hobby, and this isn't your first outbreak of ich.

Could you tell us more about that, because it shouldn't be happening. Are all these outbreaks in the same aquarium and it's a case of not treating the issue correctly? Are we talking multiple tanks, and your fish store is repeatedly selling you infected fish or the infection is spreading from one tank to another?

It sounds like you arent dealing with the problem, however the problem may be occurring. Either your treatment isn't fully eradicating the issue, or you arent properly managing infection control between tanks, or you need to look at sourcing fish from somewhere else. A quarantine tank sounds like a must for you so you arent adding infected fish into your display tank.

So based off the fact that all of my fish died from this could it have been epistylis? I didn’t think it was because it was white and pretty circular but I didn’t think that ick killed like this and my kuhli loach in the tank are unaffected. How do I do about treating the tank for epistylis, so that I can eventually her more fish for the tank?

Here is a picture of one of the guppies

 

[Andy Sager]

While Ick and Epistylis look similar, here's a trick to tell the difference: Ick will not usually attach to the fish's eyes while Epistylis will. I don't see it on this fish's eye but you need to compare it to the all the fish that were in the tank.

Here's the issue, both of these parasites are caused by stress so to be as advanced as it was, your fish must be under severe stress. The cause could be anything from rapid temperature change, poor water quality, harassment, dirty tanks, poor circulation, low oxygen level, to name a few of the more common reasons. Some of the better treatments for Epistylis are salt and malachite green or an antibiotic in the tank or food as the parasite is not eating the fish like ick is but eating the bacteria on the fish's skin. The problem is that can cause secondary infections on the fish which is why you use the antibiotic. ( In the case of Ick, you would use an antibiotic after an ick outbreak was cured vs while the fish were infested. )

In your case, since you say all the fish died, I would remove all the live plants from the main tank and sterilize them with Hydrogen Peroxide and set aside in water. Do a good cleaning of the gravel then treat the tank with salt at a rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon ( in between a dip and a bath level) for 3 -5 days then do a 100% water change and replant the plants then restock slowly. Make sure you keep the filter material wet and aerated in a separate container during the treatment as the salt can harm the microbes.

 

[stone17]

While Ick and Epistylis look similar, here's a trick to tell the difference: Ick will not usually attach to the fish's eyes while Epistylis will. I don't see it on this fish's eye but you need to compare it to the all the fish that were in the tank.

Here's the issue, both of these parasites are caused by stress so to be as advanced as it was, your fish must be under severe stress. The cause could be anything from rapid temperature change, poor water quality, harassment, dirty tanks, poor circulation, low oxygen level, to name a few of the more common reasons. Some of the better treatments for Epistylis are salt and malachite green or an antibiotic in the tank or food as the parasite is not eating the fish like ick is but eating the bacteria on the fish's skin. The problem is that can cause secondary infections on the fish which is why you use the antibiotic. ( In the case of Ick, you would use an antibiotic after an ick outbreak was cured vs while the fish were infested. )

In your case, since you say all the fish died, I would remove all the live plants from the main tank and sterilize them with Hydrogen Peroxide and set aside in water. Do a good cleaning of the gravel then treat the tank with salt at a rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon ( in between a dip and a bath level) for 3 -5 days then do a 100% water change and replant the plants then restock slowly. Make sure you keep the filter material wet and aerated in a separate container during the treatment as the salt can harm the microbes.

When I saw the other fish I didn’t think that I saw any on their eyes just close to them. I still have three khuli loach in the tank that seem unaffected. Could I do this deep of a clean and keep them alive still just in a hospital style tank? Or will they just reinfect the tank once they are added back. Thank you for all the help it’s been teaching me a lot

 

[Andy Sager]

When I saw the other fish I didn’t think that I saw any on their eyes just close to them. I still have three khuli loach in the tank that seem unaffected. Could I do this deep of a clean and keep them alive still just in a hospital style tank? Or will they just reinfect the tank once they are added back. Thank you for all the help it’s been teaching me a lot

I was afraid of that. Yes, take the loaches and put them in a separate hospital tank then clean the main tank. I would quarantine the loaches for at least 1 month before adding them back to the main tank as they may be carriers. Use some of the filter material from your filter to cycle the filter for the hospital tank. While it would be usual to set up a " true" quarantine tank, this is better done in a bare bottom tank so that you can see anything on the bottom of the tank before it re-infects the fish.

 

[stone17]

I was afraid of that. Yes, take the loaches and put them in a separate hospital tank then clean the main tank. I would quarantine the loaches for at least 1 month before adding them back to the main tank as they may be carriers. Use some of the filter material from your filter to cycle the filter for the hospital tank. While it would be usual to set up a " true" quarantine tank, this is better done in a bare bottom tank so that you can see anything on the bottom of the tank before it re-infects the fish.

Okay thank you so much!