My Goldfish Has Angry Red Sores - Please Help

[mawgui]

This forum was a great help to my goldfish and I around this time last year. I very much appreciated the wise advice and hope you may help us again.

My goldfish has red sores on his left pectoral fin and his caudal fin (photos attached). The sore on the caudal fin appears angrier than this morning and I just noticed the sore by his pectoral fin this evening.

Because his tail fin wounds seemed similar to last year, I have been treating him for several days now with Koi Nitro (nitrofurazone) powder at the recommended dosage at 20% water changes every couple days. I had not been making larger water changes because of previously measured differences between tank and tap water pH. I measured water quality this evening. Nitrates and Nitrites are 0.0 ppm. Ammonia is 0.25 ppm. pH is 7.0.

Upfront I confess that this 8" goldfish is in the same tank as he was last year: 20 gallons. I understand this to be too small. The good news is that I have a new 40 gallon tank which I have promised him I will move him to as soon as he is healthy.

I appreciate guidance to more appropriately and successfully treat my goldfish's ailments. Please help!

 

[Andy Sager]

So since you already know the fish is in too small of a tank, let's talk about what may be happening. The ammonia being above 0 is of concern in an cycled tank. You can't have 0 nitrates naturally if you have a cycled tank unless you have nitrate absorbing plants or matrixes removing it. The end product of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate so, do you have live plants or nitrate absorbing matrixes or possibly has your nitrate reagents expired or not being used properly? ( You really have to shake the crap out of nitrate reagents. :^s )
The wounds you are showing are typically caused by poor water quality so you really need to get those readings confirmed to be accurate. I suggest taking some water to your local fish store and have them test it and give you the results. ( FYI, you don't want to know if the water is okay or safe, you want the actual numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. ) Once you know the results, then we can come up with a plan.
IF your pH is confirmed at 7.0, I'd use a combination of Kanamycin ( Seachem Kanaplex) and the nitrofurazone. Follow the direction for both regarding water changes and redosing. If the pH is above 7.2, you want to just use the Kanaplex as nitrofurazone is only useful in more acidic pH levels. If the pH is under 6.8, the ammonia is not an issue and you just need to use the nitrofurazone. There is a very small pH window ( 6.8 -7.2) where the combination of Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone makes a very potent broad spectrum antibiotic. Normally, I wouldn't recommend treating the main tank with these meds because they can suppress the nitrifying microbe bed but if you are moving him once he's healed, it won't matter. Just be aware that you won't be able to use anything from this tank to cycle your 40 gal.
So let's start there.

Hope this helps

 

[mawgui]

Thank you for your quick response. I very much appreciate it.

I stopped at Petco and got readings from test strip inserted in a pint sample taken from the center of my tank:
* Nitrates - 30 ppm
* Nitrites - 0 ppm
* Chlorine - 0 ppm
* Hardness - 350
* Alkalinity - 100
* pH - 7.0
* Ammonia - 0

Please let me know your recommendation on what I need to do next. Thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you for your quick response. I very much appreciate it.

I stopped at Petco and got readings from test strip inserted in a pint sample taken from the center of my tank:
* Nitrates - 30 ppm
* Nitrites - 0 ppm
* Chlorine - 0 ppm
* Hardness - 350
* Alkalinity - 100
* pH - 7.0
* Ammonia - 0

Please let me know your recommendation on what I need to do next. Thanks!

The nitrates are probably the problem. They are high, not deadly high but high enough to be reducing the pH of the water which makes the water not the best for nitrification or goldfish. They like a more alkaline pH.
I would do two 30% water changes 2 to 3 hours apart which should raise your pH ( assuming your tap water is more alkaline) then treat the tank with Kanaplex. If your tap water is more acidic, continue with just the nitrofurazone. However, If the pH remains in the 6.8 - 7.2 range after the water changes, add the nitrofurazone to the kanaplex.
Make sure you do some good gravel cleaning while removing the water because any detritus in it is helping create nitrates. You could even siphon the gravel into a bucket instead to clean it later for the 40 gal. The less substrate in the tank, the better for the treatment. ( A hospital tank is usually best done in a bare bottom tank.)

Hope this helps.

 

[mawgui]

Thanks for your quick response. I have tested the pH of my tap water and find that this is also 7.0, so the water changes won't affect tank pH. I do have API "pH Up" and "pH Down" in case this is advisable (I have not previously used either). I have both nitrofurazone and Kanaplex in hand so I can add these after the two water changes later this evening.

When I move my guy into the 40 gallon tank, will I be able to use water and gravel from present 20 gallon tank to help establish the tank? It sounded from your earlier note that this might no longer be viable.

Thank you! I will let you know how my patient responds.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for your quick response. I have tested the pH of my tap water and find that this is also 7.0, so the water changes won't affect tank pH. I do have API "pH Up" and "pH Down" in case this is advisable (I have not previously used either). I have both nitrofurazone and Kanaplex in hand so I can add these after the two water changes later this evening.

When I move my guy into the 40 gallon tank, will I be able to use water and gravel from present 20 gallon tank to help establish the tank? It sounded from your earlier note that this might no longer be viable.

Thank you! I will let you know how my patient responds.

Yes, if the pH of your tap water is also 7.0, use both the kanaplex and nitrofurazone. No need to mess with pH up or down. Still do the 2 water changes before medicating then follow the directions of both meds for future water changes and redosing.
As for the 40, no, you can use the gravel in the 40 after you clean it like it was new gravel but no water from the 20. These meds will strongly depress and possibly kill off whatever nitrifying microbes might be in the 20 so it's not a good idea to try and transfer anything other than the totally cleaned out gravel and depending on the size, the filter as well after being cleaned.
While I usually recommend Fritzyme, if you want to rapidly get the 40 established, I'd use the Tetra Brand's SafeStart for your 40 instead of Fritzyme. Your pH is too low for the Fritzyme to work properly while the Tetra website says that 7.0 is an acceptable level for their strains of nitrifying microbes. You will be doing a " fish in" cycling so make sure you have enough reagents for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

 

[mawgui]

Thank you for your help. Following is an update on my patient and his treatment. I am hoping that you will have recommendations on updates to his treatment plan.

I conducted two partial water changes and then began treatment the afternoon of Thursday, January 8. I administered and continue to administer the Kanaplex and Nitrofurazone as indicated on the packages.

Photographs of my goldfish are attached below. His wounds on his caudal and pectoral fins appear less angry and red but also to have spread: a larger portion of his dorsal fin is affected and there is a "nodule" now on his anal fin. (Last time around, he was healed up by the Nitrofurazone within the week.)

I took measurements of water quality using my liquid test kit: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates all are zero but pH is 7.4. Logically, the higher than expected to tank pH had to be a result of the daily partial water changes. I measured the pH of my tap water and found that it was in fact 7.4- this time I measured the cold tap that I mostly use for water changes rather than warm water. I will get measurements verified at Petco tomorrow.

Please let me know your recommended adjustments to the treatment plan. Thank you!

 

[Andy Sager]

IMO, a big part of the problem is that the fish is in a tank that is too small for him/her so stress can help retard the healing. That said, the spot on the tail does look better but the continued spreading is of concern. I would continue as you've been unless you have a separate hospital tank ( I suggest a 15 gal at least) you can move the fish to for a more intense healing. The problem with using antibiotics in a main tank is that you have bacteria all over the tank, the substrate and all the decorations, filters, etc. so that makes the antibiotics a little less effective. In a hospital tank, the tank starts out sterile so the fish's issues take front stage. If you don't have a separate tank, I'd check with your local shops for medicated fish foods for bacteria ( not parasites) as that will get more medication into the fish faster. If you can't find any locally, there are online sellers but I have never bought from any of them I saw so I can't recommend one over another.
If you do end up having/getting a hospital tank, follow the directions in this thread, Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different? ( post #2) on how to set up the tank for medicating.

 

[mawgui]

We were doing much better and I thought my goldfish was out of the woods. Medications seemed to become more effective after I removed the carbon insert from my tank filter and re-introduced aquarium salt (these had slipped my mind). I have been doing 20 - 25% water changes every 24-36 hours, with aggressive suctioning of the gravel, accompanied by dosages of the antibacterial medications (I have certainly administered dosages for longer than recommended on the containers). Water quality has been maintained at chlorine, nitrite, alkalinity, ammonia all 0, nitrate 25.

About three days ago, the red spots started to spread again (photos below). There are now three rather than two spots on his tail, the sore at the base of his left side pectoral fin has started to reappear, and there is a spot on his right side pelvic fin. Interestingly, those spots on his caudal fin seem to move outward over time. It's hard to comment on my fish's behavior, but he seems pretty much as happy (if cramped) as ever. He is active and eats at meal time.

What I have been doing, remission period aside, isn't working. I need to introduce antibacterial food and/or hospital tank. What antibacterial foods have you used? I have watched your recommended YouTube video on hospital tanks. If I move my goldfish into the hospital tank, do I continue with the Kanaplex and Nitrofurazone or move on to something else? I would appreciate your recommendation. I want to get my guy healthy so he can move into his new, bigger home!

 

[Andy Sager]

We were doing much better and I thought my goldfish was out of the woods. Medications seemed to become more effective after I removed the carbon insert from my tank filter and re-introduced aquarium salt (these had slipped my mind). I have been doing 20 - 25% water changes every 24-36 hours, with aggressive suctioning of the gravel, accompanied by dosages of the antibacterial medications (I have certainly administered dosages for longer than recommended on the containers). Water quality has been maintained at chlorine, nitrite, alkalinity, ammonia all 0, nitrate 25.

About three days ago, the red spots started to spread again (photos below). There are now three rather than two spots on his tail, the sore at the base of his left side pectoral fin has started to reappear, and there is a spot on his right side pelvic fin. Interestingly, those spots on his caudal fin seem to move outward over time. It's hard to comment on my fish's behavior, but he seems pretty much as happy (if cramped) as ever. He is active and eats at meal time.

What I have been doing, remission period aside, isn't working. I need to introduce antibacterial food and/or hospital tank. What antibacterial foods have you used? I have watched your recommended YouTube video on hospital tanks. If I move my goldfish into the hospital tank, do I continue with the Kanaplex and Nitrofurazone or move on to something else? I would appreciate your recommendation. I want to get my guy healthy so he can move into his new, bigger home!

Once again, I believe the nitrates are the secondary issue to the tank size. This is how I would move forward: Get yourself a 10 gallon or 15 gallon tank to use as a hospital tank. Set it up as I describe in this thread, post #2: Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different? If the pH has risen to 7.4 or higher, just use the Kanaplex as Nitrofurazone is more an acidic water medication. If the pH is back to 7.0 or between 6.8 and 7.2, use the Kanaplex/ Nitrofurazone combination again. Once the redness is gone, put the fish into the 40 gallon not back into the 20.
Another option is to take the fish out of the 20 and strip it down, sterilize it and reset it up in one motion then use that as the hospital tank. There is no need to cycle the tank or filter as a hospital tank should be sterile so no bacteria. The water should also be as clean as possible so all new water and no gravel. Just use an air stone for aeration. Once again, when the fish no longer has the redness, get him into the 40.

As for what food I fed, it's no longer on the market. If the medication was working before, you may get away with just using that again without a medicated food. If you do need to go a medicated food route, here's a video on how to make your own with Kanaplex. In your case, use the goldfish pellets instead of the cichlid pellets in the video.

Bottom line: The tank you are keeping the fish is is too small which has the fish stressed which when just the slightest thing is off, just complicates the problem(s). The nitrates are not super high for a non stressed fish but in your case, they are too high. They should be under 10 ppm and ideally with goldfish, zero is even better.

As for the 40 gal, you can use the cycled filter cartridges from the 20 which will give you an instantly cycled tank for the one fish. Put them in the 40 before you use any medications. They should be fine for the few days I expect the fish will take to recover in nice clean water.

 

[mawgui]

Thank you. I very much appreciate your advice! I watched the video on how to prepare medicated fish food and will go to work as soon as I receive more Kanaplex (Monday or Tuesday). Will also get a new plastic hospital "tank" at Walmart.

I do have one question: what do you recommend in the way of a net for moving my guy? I understand that finer is better but I am concerned regarding size. He's tough to measure accurately in motion but my goldfish is roughly 10" now head to tail tip. The largest net I see on Amazon is about 10". Is this too small? Thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you. I very much appreciate your advice! I watched the video on how to prepare medicated fish food and will go to work as soon as I receive more Kanaplex (Monday or Tuesday). Will also get a new plastic hospital "tank" at Walmart.

I do have one question: what do you recommend in the way of a net for moving my guy? I understand that finer is better but I am concerned regarding size. He's tough to measure accurately in motion but my goldfish is roughly 10" now head to tail tip. The largest net I see on Amazon is about 10". Is this too small? Thanks!

To be quite candid, I'd get something to scoop the fish out so that you don't agitate the the red areas by them rubbing in a net. If you don't want to hand transfer him, you can use a tupperware container or I know my neighbor got a plastic pitcher from the dollar store to transfer some of his koi from tank to tank without having to use nets. He just put the pitcher in the tank and gently guided the fish into it. If all else fails, using a 10" net on a 10" fish is not going to kill him as the fish will bend some in the net and you are not going to have him in the net that long. Make sure the cloth is a fine cloth so the fin rays don't get snagged. A bigger net would be better but you have to work with what you can get.