My unfortunate tale from Ranchu to African Cichlids keeper

[FlyingLime]

Hi, I am fairly new to fish keeping. I used to keep goldfish - particularly ranchu goldfish in my 120cm (4ft) aquarium.

It happened when I decided to put a layer of soil under the sand I had in the tank, and place some plants. It looked really good, but that's when the fish started dying.

Sadly, all 8 of them died from what I presume is disease. I tried to salvage what ranchu I could, but the only 1 I managed to save got dropsy and... Well, you know how dropsy is.

So I've had some experience with ranchus for about a year.

It's been a few months since my fish were wiped out, and I wanted to get a couple oscar fish to live in my 4ft tank.

So I worked a full 8 hours at home, separating sand from soiled (learned the hard way never to mix them). Finally, I filled my 2ft tank with just a couple inches of soil, filled it up with plants. The 4ft tank was back to just plain sand. I let both the tanks cycle for a couple of days and went to the aquarium shop.

I saw a new arrival of cardinal tetras, and immediately got the lot - 30 of them. I knew I must have them in my 2ft tank!

I looked around for their oscars, but they only had 1, in a small 2ft tank, all the way on the ground. The water was barely high enough to cover him, and he was swimming... Sideways. I felt terrible for the poor thing. It was a white and yellow oscar, beautiful fella. My heart broke when I saw him and thought I should just head home.

But that's when I saw them - with the new arrivals. African cichlids. Along with the cardinals, I told the shopkeeper I wanted the cichlids. All of them.

So now my 2ft tank has 30 cardinal tetras, with a simple sponge filter and a bunch of plants.
And my 4ft tank has 30 (what I assume to be) juvenile African cichlids. This one has 4 huge sponge filters, and I also got a fluval 207 canister filter, and a bag of coral chips to help raise the pH.

I rinsed all my previous media with clean, dechlorinated water.

I understand that there are 3 main groups of African Cichlids, but I'm not entirely sure which ones I got. I asked the guy who sold them, he said they're a mix from the Malawi lake.

So I reckon these guys are either haps, or mbuna. I'm afraid they're mixed, because it isn't the best idea to keep the 2 breeds together. Please feel free to comment what type of fish they are.

I'm here to learn from my past mistakes, and honestly wish I created an account here when I was keeping ranchus.

Any feedback and advice is deeply appreciated, but please understand that I'm still fairly new to fish keeping in general.

Thank you, for whoever sat through and read all this.
I hope to learn from, and help the community grow as I grow.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Id start with cycling the tanks.

You went months with no fish, so you will lost all of your cycle. You then "cycled" the tank for a couple of days. It typically takes a couple of months to cycle a tank. So you have 30 cardinal tetras and 30 cichlids in uncycled tanks, when safe numbers are probably 2 or 3 fish in the smaller tank and 5 or 6 in the larger.

How long have the fish been in their new homes? Do you know what the water parameters currently are?

Do you know how to cycle a tank? Its going to be very risky when they are so heavily stocked.

 

[FlyingLime]

They've been in their new homes for about 5 days now.
All the cardinals are alive and well. Only 2 of the cichlids have died, but that I believe is due to stress (they died within the first 2 days).
All the fishes in both tanks are active and eating well (after initial 2 days of fasting them upon arrival).
I will test water parameters tomorrow.
What's the best way to cycle the new tanks?
@Aiken Drum sorry I didn't know how to reply to comments so I think I just added a new one.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The best way to cycle the tanks would be to take all the fish back to the store and do whats called a fishless cycle. This is a process where you dose ammonia, pretty much on a daily basis, until you have grown sufficient microbes to consume all the ammonia a tank full of fish produces. This normally takes a couple of months. Once you have completed your fishless cycle, you can safely add fish into an already cycled tank.

The next best way is to return all the fish but a few, and do whats called a fish in cycle. You want to start with 1 small fish for every 10 gallons of water, test parameters and change water regularly, add more fish gradually when its safe to do so, and build up to a fully stocked tank over several months.

After that we get to trying to manage with what you have, which is far too many fish for an uncycled tank. You will need to follow a fish in cycle, but as you have way too many fish to do this safely, water quality will deteriorate much more quickly, become toxic much quicker, and be more hazardous for your fish. You will need to test water much more frequently and change water more frequently. Possibly a big water change daily, maybe twice a day.

Which way do you want to proceed? Id strongly recommend option 1 or 2. I can post a full method on how to cycle a tank once you have decided whether you are prepared to return fish or not.

I will say the store you bought all these fish from have been extremely negligent in selling them to you without ensuring you have somewhere to safely keep them. I wouldnt deal with that store any more.

In the short term. Remove a glass of water from each tank and get that sample tested later and know what they are living in now. Then do a 50% water change. Do 50% water changes every day until you get a test kit and can test your water.

The test kit should at the very least test for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. A liquid test kit is best, for example API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Given my next point, you might want general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) tests too.

Cardinal tetras prefer soft acidic water. The cichlids prefer hard, higher pH water. What type of water do you have? I assume your water is going to be pretty much the same in both, so its unlikely to suit both. You may need to do some work with adjusting water hardness in one or the other tank. But, its always better to select fish that suit the water rather than trying to adjust water to suit the fish. Given your cardinals havent suffered, and you have some deaths in the cichlids, that suggests your water better suits the tetras.

 

[FlyingLime]

The best way to cycle the tanks would be to take all the fish back to the store and do whats called a fishless cycle. This is a process where you dose ammonia, pretty much on a daily basis, until you have grown sufficient microbes to consume all the ammonia a tank full of fish produces. This normally takes a couple of months. Once you have completed your fishless cycle, you can safely add fish into an already cycled tank.

The next best way is to return all the fish but a few, and do whats called a fish in cycle. You want to start with 1 small fish for every 10 gallons of water, test parameters and change water regularly, add more fish gradually when its safe to do so, and build up to a fully stocked tank over several months.

After that we get to trying to manage with what you have, which is far too many fish for an uncycled tank. You will need to follow a fish in cycle, but as you have way too many fish to do this safely, water quality will deteriorate much more quickly, become toxic much quicker, and be more hazardous for your fish. You will need to test water much more frequently and change water more frequently. Possibly a big water change daily, maybe twice a day.

Which way do you want to proceed? Id strongly recommend option 1 or 2. I can post a full method on how to cycle a tank once you have decided whether you are prepared to return fish or not.

I will say the store you bought all these fish from have been extremely negligent in selling them to you without ensuring you have somewhere to safely keep them. I wouldnt deal with that store any more.

In the short term. Remove a glass of water from each tank and get that sample tested later and know what they are living in now. Then do a 50% water change. Do 50% water changes every day until you get a test kit and can test your water.

The test kit should at the very least test for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. A liquid test kit is best, for example API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Given my next point, you might want general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) tests too.

Cardinal tetras prefer soft acidic water. The cichlids prefer hard, higher pH water. What type of water do you have? I assume your water is going to be pretty much the same in both, so its unlikely to suit both. You may need to do some work with adjusting water hardness in one or the other tank. But, its always better to select fish that suit the water rather than trying to adjust water to suit the fish. Given your cardinals havent suffered, and you have some deaths in the cichlids, that suggests your water better suits the tetras.

Hi

The best way to cycle the tanks would be to take all the fish back to the store and do whats called a fishless cycle. This is a process where you dose ammonia, pretty much on a daily basis, until you have grown sufficient microbes to consume all the ammonia a tank full of fish produces. This normally takes a couple of months. Once you have completed your fishless cycle, you can safely add fish into an already cycled tank.

The next best way is to return all the fish but a few, and do whats called a fish in cycle. You want to start with 1 small fish for every 10 gallons of water, test parameters and change water regularly, add more fish gradually when its safe to do so, and build up to a fully stocked tank over several months.

After that we get to trying to manage with what you have, which is far too many fish for an uncycled tank. You will need to follow a fish in cycle, but as you have way too many fish to do this safely, water quality will deteriorate much more quickly, become toxic much quicker, and be more hazardous for your fish. You will need to test water much more frequently and change water more frequently. Possibly a big water change daily, maybe twice a day.

Which way do you want to proceed? Id strongly recommend option 1 or 2. I can post a full method on how to cycle a tank once you have decided whether you are prepared to return fish or not.

I will say the store you bought all these fish from have been extremely negligent in selling them to you without ensuring you have somewhere to safely keep them. I wouldnt deal with that store any more.

In the short term. Remove a glass of water from each tank and get that sample tested later and know what they are living in now. Then do a 50% water change. Do 50% water changes every day until you get a test kit and can test your water.

The test kit should at the very least test for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. A liquid test kit is best, for example API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Given my next point, you might want general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) tests too.

Cardinal tetras prefer soft acidic water. The cichlids prefer hard, higher pH water. What type of water do you have? I assume your water is going to be pretty much the same in both, so its unlikely to suit both. You may need to do some work with adjusting water hardness in one or the other tank. But, its always better to select fish that suit the water rather than trying to adjust water to suit the fish. Given your cardinals havent suffered, and you have some deaths in the cichlids, that suggests your water better suits the tetras.

Hi Aiken,

I cannot express how thankful I am to have someone actively help and post advice on this.

Unfortunately, I cannot return the fish back to this shop. I called and they said the last time they accepted returns, the whole tank got ich/ ick.
That's understandable.

Yeah, this shop isn't the best, but it's the only one I have that's near me, and the next closest one is also the same shop, different outlet.

I'm very big on water change, I used to do 80 to 90% changes with my Ranchu, and did a (first time) 50% water change with the cichlids the other day. Now as I'm writing, I'm doing an 80% water change.
I'll do at least 50% water change everyday till you recommend is enough.

Sorry, I cannot do options 1 or 2 because no one is going to care for my fish while I cycle the tank.

But I'd like to mention that even thothe fish were gone, I still ran the tank for a few weeks even though it was empty. I didn't want to kill off any bacterial colonies. Even after I drained the water, the soil and sand were still wet, I made sure to keep it, my media, and sponge filters damp by adding dechlorinated water.
So, there was still water in the 4ft tank, just really very shallow. This was so my plants didn't die while I figured out what to do with the tank.

I'd think that a lot of the nitrifying/ beneficial bacteria is still alive in the media and filters. Perhaps not so much in the sand when I was rinsing soil off them.

I have the fresh water test kit, and I'll test the water soon before adding water back to the tank. But the test kit I have doesn't test for water hardness. Only pH, ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. I will look for a hardness test kit.

Cheers.

 

[FlyingLime]

Hi

Hi Aiken,

I cannot express how thankful I am to have someone actively help and post advice on this.

Unfortunately, I cannot return the fish back to this shop. I called and they said the last time they accepted returns, the whole tank got ich/ ick.
That's understandable.

Yeah, this shop isn't the best, but it's the only one I have that's near me, and the next closest one is also the same shop, different outlet.

I'm very big on water change, I used to do 80 to 90% changes with my Ranchu, and did a (first time) 50% water change with the cichlids the other day. Now as I'm writing, I'm doing an 80% water change.
I'll do at least 50% water change everyday till you recommend is enough.

Sorry, I cannot do options 1 or 2 because no one is going to care for my fish while I cycle the tank.

But I'd like to mention that even thothe fish were gone, I still ran the tank for a few weeks even though it was empty. I didn't want to kill off any bacterial colonies. Even after I drained the water, the soil and sand were still wet, I made sure to keep it, my media, and sponge filters damp by adding dechlorinated water.
So, there was still water in the 4ft tank, just really very shallow. This was so my plants didn't die while I figured out what to do with the tank.

I'd think that a lot of the nitrifying/ beneficial bacteria is still alive in the media and filters. Perhaps not so much in the sand when I was rinsing soil off them.

I have the fresh water test kit, and I'll test the water soon before adding water back to the tank. But the test kit I have doesn't test for water hardness. Only pH, ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. I will look for a hardness test kit.

Cheers.

Update on the 4ft tank before 80% water change:

pH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5.0ppm

 

[Aiken Drum]

Unfortunately, I cannot return the fish back to this shop. I called and they said the last time they accepted returns, the whole tank got ich/ ick.
That's understandable.

No, thats not understandable. They have an awful returns policy that just shows that they have no care about what they sell. All they want is your money and arent interested in any kind of continued customer care. You have seen how they keep their fish, the oscar. They have sold you what must have been somewhere around £400 of fish to keep in uncycled aquariums. They are now admitting to selling whole tanks of fish with ich which is easily preventable if they properly quarantine their fish before sale. What a terrible store. Personally, i would just bag up all the fish, return them to the store, leave them on the counter, walk out and never return. Mail order for everything if there are no other stores within an hours drive, dont give them any more money. But its up to you.

But I'd like to mention that even thothe fish were gone, I still ran the tank for a few weeks even though it was empty. I didn't want to kill off any bacterial colonies. Even after I drained the water, the soil and sand were still wet, I made sure to keep it, my media, and sponge filters damp by adding dechlorinated water.
So, there was still water in the 4ft tank, just really very shallow. This was so my plants didn't die while I figured out what to do with the tank.

Unfortunately to keep those bacterial colonies alive they need a supply of both oxygenated water and ammonia to stay alive. With no fish supplying the ammonia they will start to die off after around a week. If you turned off the filteration and cut off the "oxygenated" water we are talking a couple days before the bacteria dies. If things dry out completely 2 or 3 hours. You are seeing ammonia and nitrite in your testing.

Update on the 4ft tank before 80% water change:

pH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5.0ppm

Thats where you want things to be. Test the water every day. When things get to that sort of level do a water change. When your daily water test shows zero ammonia and nitrite over an extended period you are cycled. Your pH is very high and that makes ammonia more toxic, so its really important to not let ammonia get any worse than that. A high pH suggests high GH and KH which would suit the cichlids more than the tetras, so going forward you should keep an eye on the tetras and see how they go. If they dont do so well, id suggest looking at fish that do better in harder water for your smaller tank, like maybe livebearers. They should live 2 or 3 years in aquariums, if they arent getting beyond a year you might want to consider different fish.

 

[Aiken Drum]

And just to add on the ich. You now know they have sold fish infected with ich in the past, and there is no reason to suggest they put any effort into eradicating it from their tanks and won't sell infected fish again in the future. So thats something else to consider. Ich should manifest in the first couple of weeks at tropical water temperature, so look for early signs like your fish rubbing up against your aquascape trying to scratch themselves clear of parasites. Going forward, if you continue to buy fish from them, id really recommend setting up a quarantine tank and quarantining new fish for 2 or 3 weeks before adding them to display tanks

 

[FlyingLime]

And just to add on the ich. You now know they have sold fish infected with ich in the past, and there is no reason to suggest they put any effort into eradicating it from their tanks and won't sell infected fish again in the future. So thats something else to consider. Ich should manifest in the first couple of weeks at tropical water temperature, so look for early signs like your fish rubbing up against your aquascape trying to scratch themselves clear of parasites. Going forward, if you continue to buy fish from them, id really recommend setting up a quarantine tank and quarantining new fish for 2 or 3 weeks before adding them to display tanks

You're right. I know that these people are terrible. I think I'll stop going to them, unless it's an emergency (need a filter or pump urgently, etc.)

Here I've done a test on my cichlid tank this morning, and am doing another 80% water change:
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5.0ppm

As for the pH, the reason why it's on the higher side is I put a bag of crushed coral in the tank, and also added a little alkaline buffer to get things going. But I didn't know it affects to ammonia toxicity. I will not add any more alkaline buffer after this water change.

I'm going to do a test on the tetra tank after this, and will consider how much water to change thereafter. 1 tetra died last night. Worst of all, I realise the little sponge filter in this tank was bone dry for months! Please let me know if I should squeeze some content from a large sponge filter in my cichlid tank (which was kept wet since I kept ranchus) into the tetra tank to help jumpstart a cycle?

Thanks.

 

[FlyingLime]

You're right. I know that these people are terrible. I think I'll stop going to them, unless it's an emergency (need a filter or pump urgently, etc.)

Here I've done a test on my cichlid tank this morning, and am doing another 80% water change:
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5.0ppm

As for the pH, the reason why it's on the higher side is I put a bag of crushed coral in the tank, and also added a little alkaline buffer to get things going. But I didn't know it affects to ammonia toxicity. I will not add any more alkaline buffer after this water change.

I'm going to do a test on the tetra tank after this, and will consider how much water to change thereafter. 1 tetra died last night. Worst of all, I realise the little sponge filter in this tank was bone dry for months! Please let me know if I should squeeze some content from a large sponge filter in my cichlid tank (which was kept wet since I kept ranchus) into the tetra tank to help jumpstart a cycle?

Thanks.

Update on tetra tank parameters:
pH: =/< 6
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5ppm

It's worth noting that this tank is heavily stocked with plants. All the plants I had in the 4ft tank, I moved to this 2ft tank, anchored with 2 inch soil as substrate. I will not be doing a water change on this tank today.

Yesterday, I topped up some water which evaporated over the week, and noticed a tetra die last night. Could I have done something wrong?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Id stick with adding the buffer and keeping the crushed coral in the cichlid tank as thats what those fish prefer. While it will make the ammonia more toxic, the solution to that is to keep up with your water changes when ammonia is present and get the aquarium cycled.