need help with table aquarium!

[auris]

Hi everyone!
I've been a quiet observer of this forum for about 4 month now. I kind of thought I would learn on someone else's experience Well, I'm stuck...
I bought a 25G table aquarium with a glass top. I hope you know what I'm talking about. I realized later that this kind of aquarium is tricky, I can not maintain water temperature higher than my room temperature and comfortable enough for tropical fish- it fogs up. It was just the beginning.
Well, long story short. I did my fishless cycle for 4 month. Everything started working only when I provided enough air and high temperatures. I was patient and got to the results needed. When I changed 80% of my water to get nitrates out, future looked bright. I put 1 3 inch red oranda (I couldnt think of any other less waste producer in cold water ). Everything looked fine first week. I did 25% water change. Mid second week I got 0.5-1 ammonia and nil nitrite. End of second week I change another 25% water. Ammonia stays on the same level. Here I am in the middle of the 3rd week with the fish in the tank. Ammonia climbing up. The fish showing signs of depression and couple ich spots on it's tail. I changed 75% of water. Ammonia stays the same 1.0 , PH 7.4! What happened to all the bacteria? Why didn't it go down with the water change? If the bacteria died, can it survive 66-68 degre temp at all? How can I get a nitro cycle going now?
This is just a couple of my questions. Can anyone help me with it, pls? Anyone has any exp with table aquariums? Thanks

 

[Endgame319]

I dont think the water change caused it, most of the bacteria is on the surfaces of the tank (especially the filter media). But the nitrifying bacteria die if they go 24 hrs without food, so if you stopped adding ammonia for a while, you might have killed the bacteria.

 

[jsoong]

Yes, I've read of lots of problems with those coffee table aquariums.

By your numbers, with ammonia still rising, you are basically back to square one, and now have to cycle the old fashioned way (using fish). a 3" oranda is not the best one for the job, since orandas are finicky about having clean water. <If you were to cycle using fish in cold water, small metallic fantail or white clouds would have been better - but then you went through 4 months of fishless cycling, everything should have been fine. BTW I applaud you on your patience - I would have given up long before 4 months! >

Why you lost the bacteria? In your post it was not clear if your NH3 started climbing right away or at week 2. If it was right away, the bacteria might have died after the 80% water change if you didn't introduced the fish immedietely, since the bugs no longer have a nitrogen source to feed on.

If your NH3 only gets bad at week 2, then the bugs might have died from other reasons - did you change the filter, or did anything else? Also, was there a big temp. change between the fishless cycle & adding the fish? This might be a peob. too.

At this point, I guess you'll have to stick with daily water changes to keep the NH3 below 1 and cycle the fishie way. Sorry I don't have experience with those coffee table aquariums. However, I did cycle with fantails & it took me a good 6 weeks of daily 25% (up to 50%) water change to get the bugs established.

Hope this help ... & welcome to AA.

 

[auris]

Big thanks to you guys for your comments.
I'm afraid - yes, I changed my filter media. It looked really dirty and smelly. That was probably the main thing. Again, the temp difference between fless cycle and oranda tank was about 10 degrees F.
As soon as I was done with my fishless cycle I changed 80% of the water and put the oranda in no later than 2 hours after that.
Week 1 NH3 was 0.0. 25-30% water change. 3 days after that I have 0.5-1 NH3. It doesn't go down no matter how much water I change.

Trying to put my plan together now. Interesting thing - NH3 doesn't really climb above 1.0. Should I change water everyday even though NH3 is stable? What if I add some ammo-chips instead of carbon pellets in my filter? Whouldn't it control NH3 level? How often should I change my filter media and carbon not to have this situation again?

 

[jsoong]

Changing the filter can do it. Most people here just rinse out the filter in old tank water & reuse, so the good bugs are retained. If you are into filter changing, then you'll have 2 filters running & only change one every few months so you always have one mature filter funning at all times.

Interesting that your NH3 is staying at 1 & not moving with water change. I would rule out a false test or ammonia in the water. Also, what dechlorinator / other additives do you use. Some dechlor binds ammonia & this will show as false positive in Nessler test (but not in Salicylate test).

I would do a test on your tap water, then tap with dechlor. If any test positive, then we need to dig further.

Also, what is the nitrite & nitrate readings? This would give indication on where you are at in the cycling process.

I wouldn't do daily water changes if the ammonia is less than 1. You do need some ammonia to cycle a tank. I would check both NH3 & nitrites, and do water change if NH3 is approaching 1 or nitrite approaching 0.5.

 

[Guest]

I put 1 3 inch red oranda (I couldnt think of any other less waste producer in cold water ).

If you want some cool/cold water fish, really hardy, White Cloud Mountain Minnows. I love mine, hardy as hell, and very good in a wide range of temps.

 

[auris]

Bingo!
I just tried testing my tap water for NH3. Pure tap water 0.0 . De-chlorinated water color went out of scale! If 0.0 is clear and goes towards yellow showing ammonia present, this one went brown. That means I went overboard with de-chlorinating this particular sample and probably all my water in the tank :x I use Tetra Aqua Aquasafe conditioner. Looks like it binds NH3. Could you guys point me to water conditioner that has no danger of doing that, pls?
Well, this setup gives me an idea why NH3 is not climbing up. Nitrites are at 0.0 . I don't have a tester for nitrates. I have hope some of the bacteria is still present.
What should be my next move now? Should I put some tap water with no de-chlorinator to make it easier on my Oranda? I can see it stressed and even loosing some scales with some ich on it's tail. Will chlorine do no harm to the fish? How much chlorinated water % can my tank tolerate?
I just don't want to do anything stupid and do more harm.
Oh, and one more question: I have changed my carbon pellets into ammo chips in the filter. Should I switch it back? Will the chips do the same job in the cycle as the carbon ?
I must be giving you guys a headache with my pile of questions... Sorry. I do appreciate any input from you regarding all of this.

 

[Endgame319]

I dont think that would really change much. Do you have sponge media? That is an excellent place for bacteria to grow due to all the surface area.

 

[jsoong]

No need to panic The NH3 reading is a false positive. Your tap water prob. has chloramines as disinfectant, this react with the dechlor, forming NH3 & Cl. The NH3 is bound by the dechlor, and is not harmful. But your test cannot tell the bound NH3 from free one. To tell the real NH3 level, you need a Salicylate test - this is a 2 part liquid test & costs more than the regular NH3 test.

Unless you are overdosing the dechlor, I think you can keep using the Aquasafe. <JUst in case - you only add the amount of dechlor for the volume of water you are changing, not for the whole tank. Apologies if you already know that...>

If your water change is less than 10 or 20%, you can skip the dechlor. Note this is controversial. Some will never skip the dechol. I would also not skip dechol is doing very frequent water changes. Chloramines take at least a week to break down, so if you are doing daily changes without dechlor, it will accumulate.

With the ammochips in, I suspect that you have no NH3 in the water to start the cycle. I think that the first thing is to get a true reading of NH3 to guide you in the water change. I would use ammochips/ammolock, etc only in an emergency if NH3 is sky high & I can't get it down with water change.

Since the oranda is show signs of ich, you'll need to look after that as well. I suggest you read Alli.'s article here:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=32

I personally had much better luck treating ich with salt than with meds. Also, meds can kill the bacteria & set you back in the cycling department. With goldies, high heat is prob not a treatment option.

I am not sure if the oranda is getting ich from NH3 (since your level was never very high to start with). It might have been a temp change, or he might have it to start with. You said the tank temp is 10 F lower now than during fishless cycling, if the fish is subjected to this temp drop, it can bring on ich (I was told to never drop temp more than 4 F at a time). Since your NH3 is not too high, I think the orandas might be getting stressed more from the ich than the water itself.