new 20g tank - going fishless - wife is distressed!

[3fish3boys]

My two sons 6 and 5 came home with two goldfish in baggies three months ago from a teacher at school (a cruel thing I now have realized)..i've kept them alive in an 2g bowl using Bowl Buddies and a full water change every week for over 3 months..my boys put a few marbles in the bottom and a plastic ship..the fish love the marbles and move them all around the bowl..it has been quite fun and now I'm hooked.

I went out 3 days ago and bought a TopFin 20g starter kit from Petsmart (includes filter,hood,etc), stand, a couple plants, a castle (boys idea!), gravel, a gravel vacuum, a Rena air supply, and wall bubbler, a bottle of stress coat...I've decided to go fishless until the tank is right and plan to move the two goldfish as soon as the tank is ready...I put in the required stress coat and the two pouches of bio gel provided in my start up kit...and I'm in waiting mode...now the problems

Its been just 3 days and tank smells already.. the Mrs. is fit to be tied...I expect that some water type smell is normal but must admit that this seems a bit strong..will this eventually go away?

the room my tank is in stays fairly warm summer and winter..about 72 to 74 degrees and the tank appears to be in the same range...the 2g bowl i have sits in a room that is generally 70 at all times...will this temperature change hurt my fish?

Finally, from my reading it appears that testing the water for nitrates, etc is important....does this still hold true even for goldfish? Also would appreciate a referral to a good website so that I can become better educated.

 

[peterp]

If you are doing a fishless cycle what are you using for an ammonia source?

May be better off to use the 2 goldfish to do the tank cycle.
Just clean the tank(no detergent), de-chlorinate the water and put the fish in. (Assuming the filter is running ) Then do a weeksy 15%-20% water change.

Goldfish tend to prefer cooler waters, but mine get whatever their little pond gets to in the summer and in winter they live in a 100 gal horse trough in my basement.
(With a 350 gph pond filter)

I'd guess the summer water may get into the 80's and in winter they are around 72. All doing well and some are way over 10 years old and over a foot long.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

DEFINITELY need to keep track of ammonia, and nitrites, in any tank, with any kind of aquatic life.

If you have test kits, i'd test your water right now. I'm not familiar with with "bio gel", but it's been pretty well documented that there is only one product out there that contains the necessary/appropriate bacteria (it's called Bio-Spira, there is a product review somewhere in this forum). Even if the bio-gel had the right bacteria...with no fish to "feed" the colonies, you are bound to have ammonia and nitrite problems once the goldies are introduced.

Wouldn't worry about the temp...sounds just about perfect for the goldfish.

http://www.goldfishinfo.com has lots of good info on keeping goldfish (I myself am a huge goldie fan!).

 

[3fish3boys]

Thanks... I have a lot to learn...I thought I didn't need ammonia at the start...like I said..could use some good advice on the right reading source..especially on cycling, etc.

Wow...a foot long gold fish...will they stay small if I keep them in my tank? I have no place to put them if they get this big...hardly seems fair to raise them...

 

[3fish3boys]

Thanks sweetsuvvyb...will get my test kit tomorrow and read the provided link.

Sorry..the bio gel was Stress Zyme...it came with the tank

 

[peterp]

I suspect it depends on the type of goldfish, my goldfish and koi were bought/sold as pond fish. I think they can max out at 18 inches.
I don't think the "fancy" goldfish sold for home tanks get quite that large.

Wow...a foot long gold fish...will they stay small if I keep them in my tank? I have no place to put them if they get this big...hardly seems fair to raise them...

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

I believe the goldfish sold for koi ponds are a slightly different species, that aquarium goldfish, while they can get that big...generally top out at 8 inches or so.

Your 20 gallon should be a great home for them!

A lot of the info (in my experience) provided with tank "kits" (which is what i have as well) is a little bit sub-par. When I got my very 1st tank, it seemed to suggest that if I left the tank alone for a week, it would somehow be ready for fish.

The pet stores (and some of the product manufacturers) would like you to believe that there is an additive or chemical that will cure any problem.

Really, all you need is a little patience.

Aquariums rely on what we call a "biofilter"...meaning we foster an environment where bacteria can grow inside the tank. These bacteria will keep the tank safe for your fish. There are 2 kinds that we want in there...the 1st kind will "eat" ammonia, and produce nitrite. The 2nd kind (which are a bit slower to grow initially), "eat" the nitrite, and produce nitrate...which is safe for fish to live in, unlike the ammonia or nitrite.

So when we talk about "cycling a new tank"...we're talking about the growing of those bacterial colonies. Goldfish are pretty hardy, so they'll probably be ok to be in the tank while this is going on (some fish can't tolerate the toxic ammonia or nitrite, even at low levels). But what you'll have to do is...every day, use your test kit to check the levels of ammonia and nitrites, and change 10-20% of the water if they test high. You'll initially see a spike in ammonia, then it will diminish, and you'll see a spike in nitrites (this is where the patience comes in!). Lastly...your nitrites will diminish, and you'll see nitrates...and voila! You have grown yourself a biofilter.

There is tons of information on this forum on cycling, and setting up new tanks. The search function can be useful if you're looking for something specific.

 

[tkos]

Goldfish are the reason that people at the fish stores tell you a fish will only grow as big as its tank. This isn't true for all fish, but goldfish tend to get their growth stunted by living in smaller containers. I suspect you have comet goldfish which if given the room would grow to be over 12 inches long, but they won't in your tank.

The big thing to remember with goldfish is that they are very ineffecient eaters and produce a lot of waste in their water. It is a must to test and do water changes frequently with goldfish. Also the 20 gallon may seem tempting to add more fish to but really 10 gallons per goldfish is the minimum you should have for them to stay healthy.

If the plants you bought were live ones then they will help keep the goldfish healthy by using the nitrates, nitrites and ammonia as a food source. Of course goldfish tend to use live plants as a food source.

One final note is that you should make sure you buy "Goldfish Food" and not tropical fish food. Goldfish are mainly veggitarians and need high carbohydrate food. Tropical fish food is very high in protein and can lead to digestive problems in goldfish.

 

[3fish3boys]

Many thanks to both of you

I was up past midnight last night reading up on the cycle...I see why you asked me about the ammonia source now...great call on the magic one week...basically they told me to pour in the bacteria and wait a week...but with nothing to eat how does that colonize the bacteria? It makes no sense unless they just expect the system to settle down, temperature adjust, gravel particles cleaned, etc...I've purchased my test kit and am heading home now to test...expect that I will add a fish tomorrow or Thurs..it will be kind of fun to test often and get feel for the cycle

Yes, I am feeding them goldfish food...I think I have a fantail and a Shunikun(sp?)..but they are Goldie (hey, the kids named them) and Tiger..the fantail is hilarious and pushes marbles all around the bottom of their current bowl...my board name comes from my third boy who I promised a fish when we got a 20 gallon tank...he already has a name (Pirate) but no fish...it sounds like I better back off the third fish or buy a Comet that will stay small and then plan on keeping things very clean

Very appreciative of the help...will post again when I have news or have completed the cycle

On more thing...the musty smell...pretty normal for a 20g aquarium?

 

[AtodaJ]

Re: Many thanks to both of you

...basically they told me to pour in the bacteria and wait a week...but with nothing to eat how does that colonize the bacteria? It makes no sense unless they just expect the system to settle down, temperature adjust, gravel particles cleaned, etc...

I think you are referring to the Stress Zyme bacterial product here. IMHO, that product does not work and actually should be avoided. The only product that seems to work is called Bio Spira. Search this forum for other topics on Stress Zyme and Bio Spira to read the experience of this forums members with these products.

Stress Zyme contains the wrong bacterial type. That is why you have to keep adding it during water changes.... cuz your tank won't have cycled. Don't waste your money on Stress Zyme as it will only create an unstable tank.

Good luck!

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

You actually got 2 very nice ornamental goldies rather than a comet (which are equally as nice, but are far too often, used only as food for other bigger fish, or are given away as "prizes").

Might want to look at getting an oranda for your the 3rd son to round out your goldfish family...I have a red cap who is a ton of fun (he's just in the past couple of months started to grow his "cap"...really beautiful, although he's lost some of the red, so its more of an orange cap LOL).

The ornamentals are generally going to be smaller than a comet, as their body shape is pretty different (comets are kind of diamond shaped...ornamentals are kind of round).

 

[jsoong]

it sounds like I better back off the third fish or buy a Comet that will stay small and then plan on keeping things very clean

I am also a goldfish fan. For a small aquarium, I would suggest not getting a comet. Comets are basically pond fish & will grow to 12 or so inches (or more), plus they are fast swimmer & need lots of room.

A small fantail is my suggestion if you wish to add a third fish (after your tank has cycled), they generally do not grow past 6-8 inches. However, when all 3 of your fish are full grown, they would still be pretty crowded in a 20 gal, so in a couple years (or less) you might have to look for larger accomodations!

 

[tkos]

If you are going to do a cycling with a fish in the tank I would suggest getting the new goldfish and using it. That way it will also quarentine him from the other fish. I too would suggest not getting the cheap comets as they are quite often diseased (poor guys) at the LFS. You have a better chance of getting a healthy fish by going with a fancy. Leaving him for at least a week by himself will let you know whether or not he is carrying a disease taht could be passed on to the other fish. Just make sure to do many water changes in the first while as the bacteria is growing strong in the tank. As you have read any ammonia or nitrites are harmful to the fish so make sure to eliminate them. The cyle with fish will take awhile but keeping them healthy will assure that they have a long life (up to 25 years for some goldfish).

 

[3fish3boys]

Update and questions

My fish are in and appear to be doing fine...but I have a few other rookie questions:

I bought a test kit that allows me to test 5 different items with a seperate test for Ammonia. My Nitrites were 0.5, my nitrates 20 ppm and my Ammonia 1.0....I'm disturbed by the ammonia because I took the test just 24 hours after doing a 20% water change and vacuum...does this seem normal? Are my level's looking OK to the experts?

Second question...the day of my water change the water smelled good and looked clear...the day after my filter was pure green and grungy and my water smelled foul...of course I changed the filter and after a day the water is 60% clearer...still a bit cloudy but clearer...and it still smells a bit..what's up here? I get the point that my cleaning and water change got all the particles, etc floating and the filter over loaded, etc...but how long on average should it take to for the new filter to do its stuff?

Third question: I have a Rena air pump...their ten gallon version...and I using it with half a wall bubbler...I bought the Rena because it was supposed be be quiet...and admittedly the pump itself does not vibrate a lot...but the noise once the air hits the water is just plain wrong...I can hear the buzz from the story below and just about any room in my house..any thoughts on this? Will changing to a standard air stone help? Do you think I have a defective pump?

Finally: My tests show I have a ph of over 8, that's just how my tap water is as I have tested it plain...should I be concerned for my little goldfish and take corrective steps? They lived in a bowl like this for three months.

Thanks...this site is just the best for newbies..

 

[Allivymar]

Urk! I think I can explain the ammonia readings. When you changed the filter you removed a large portion of the nitrifying bacteria. Your tank is re-cycling You're going to need to water change regularly to reduce those levels (you want ammonia and nitrites to be below .5 ppm IMHO). In the future, try rinsing the filter out in the removed tank water; it will keep those nitrifying bacteria in there. Once the tank is well cycled, which will take a month or 2, you can change the filter, but you may have a mini cycle if the filter doesn't also have a bio-wheel or there isn't enough bacteria in the gravel and on the tank walls.

Not sure why it smells; what does it smell like? A fish tank should have a slight odor; sorta like wet dirt. What sort of filter are you using? And what is the size rating?

And it may be the air pump. I have used 2 Renas; both were pretty noisy- I returned one. The Whisper pumps are pretty quiet. Yet you say the air coming into the tank "buzzes"? Hrmmm, I haven't had that happen. If no one else here has a suggestion, I'd reset the airstone; maybe its laying on something and vibrating it?

If the fish were doing ok with the pH of 8, I would leave it. Its a little higher then what goldfish usually are in, but lowering pH can cause problems in and of itself. As long as the fish are happy and healthy I think they'll be fine.

 

[3fish3boys]

Timing

Sorry...I was not real clear on the order of things.... :? ,In order: I did a water change/vacuum, then the next day the tank smelled foul and was cloudy, that's when I did my water test and got the readings in my previous post..so I had not removed the filter (my first - since adding the fish on the 22nd of Sept.) at the time of testing.

Then, I flipped the lid on the out of tank filter (Top Fin 20) and noticed the filter was green and stinky, then I changed the filter by keeping the frame(rinsed just a bit in cold water) - placing on a filter - and adding the little carbon pouch that came with the filter change kit..

This morning the smell was better, and the water clearer...but its worse again this evening...it smells worse, and is a bit more cloudy..it is a not the little musty smell...it smells a bit like their food(Marinelands for GoldFish..Bio Food?)...kind of fishy but more just like something died (no my fish still look great...eating..playing )

I'll test the air pump again just before my next water change...which looks like it needs to be tomorrow huh? I'll look for vibrating..etc...good thought

Also, thanks for the ph advice...I feel better already...my ph testing chart states that a ph of my level is "slow death" when combined with just a bit of ammonia...scary stuff

On the filter issue...I saw the Penguin bio wheel filters in the store...long term...will I and my fish just be happier with a better filter like this? Should I oversize it for my tank? Say a 30 gal for 20 gal tank?

 

[jsoong]

One thought on the smell, if it smells like dead fish/shrimp, then it is the ammonia or ammonia compounds you are smelling. Also, rotting fish food will pretty much smell like rotting fish too (my goldfish food lists fishmeal as first ingredient). You can try feeding less (it is a good idea when your tank is cycling anyway - reduces the NH3 load), any make sure to get rid of uneaten food.

If the smell is ammonia, then it should clear when your tank cycle. One thing I am finding out about the carbon thing is they don't last. With a high NH3 load, they get saturated quickly, maybe that's why the smell comes back in 24 hr after carbon change.

From reading here & elsewhere, it seems a lot of people are giving up on carbon & other chemical filtration unless there is a specific need (removing meds, for example), and simply relying on the biological & mechanical filtration.

On the airpump noise: I went through something similar to you, so here's my experience. My first pump was just plain noisy - the proof - unplug everything from the airpump & just run it by itself, it rattles like something is loose, so I returned it.

My next pump, I tested in the store, and it was quiet. However, all pumps vibrate when it is on, and when I put it on the shelf, the wood acted like some sort of amplifier & made a LOUD noise. That disappeared as soon as I picked the pump up. Eventually I solved the problem by placing the pump on a sponge, and the noise is now negligeble.

In your case, I would simply disconnect the airhose from the pump & see if there is noise. If there isn't, then I would attach one thing at a time, and when the noise appears, you've found the problem.