Nitrate poisoning and I'm desperate to save my fish!!!! Please help...

[Libby1]

Haha! Okay, I'm gonna try doing the response thing... let's see if this forum likes me as much as it likes you lol

Okay, just for the record, I would not rule out an inflamed ovary. It's in the right area.

Oh! It works!! Wait -- inflamed ovary! Wow I didn't know that's possible. What can I do to fix that??? And what may have caused it (if that's what it is) .. the nitrates...?? The fact that I'm treating them with General Cure, could that potentially help heal this?

The only way to definitely know what it is is to get an x-ray of the fish. The rest of the time we are only ruling things in and ruling things out. Could it be constipation? Sure, it's possible but the area is not common for the intestines. That doesn't mean that it can't be tho. Reread my suggestion with Epsom Salt. THAT is the other way of curing constipation if peas don't work.

How in the world does one do an x-ray on a fish.....?? Also, that probably runs into thousands of dollars, no...?? I'm gonna re-read what you wrote about the Epsom salt. And I'll follow your instructions. I really pray it helps..

Step 1: Finish the deworming. Step 2: Do bigger water changes to lower the nitrate level. Step 3: feed more food. Step 4: do more frequent water changes .

Okay. But also, I need to know if there's anything else I should be doing to deworm, or whatever is going on. Like, I'm not treating their food with any medication or salt or anything. I'm afraid to do it without expert advice from someone who knows exactly how it should be done, or what should not be done. Do you know anything about this stuff? I'm afraid to follow random online posts.. although they do say it worked.

If the plant is not browning or dying, yes it's safe to leave in there. If those things start to happen, it should be removed as it's decaying water quality.

When a fish is poisoned, every " normal" behavior goes out the window. They are no longer " normal" fish.

Yes but slowly the poison leaves their system, no?? Has to be. Because otherwise my fish would not be straightening out, etc.

All I can say is read directions more carefully. A little Aquarium salt is not going to harm much, especially since you under dosed anyway. Yes, add the EPSOM SALT when you get it. Make sure it has no additives.

Got it. Thanks! I would not have known! I'll go back and check the dose you suggested.

Eheims are good filters as long as you keep the collection material from getting clogged up with gunk.

Every few months I rinse it out gently.

I'm not telling. It's a secret. But seriously, hit reply to the message you want to quote, place the curser at the end of the message you want to quote then hit enter and you should get a white background. If you only want to quote a small section of a long rambling post ( like mine ) you will need to delete the rest of the message as you would in any other program.

Haha too late -- it worked!!

As for the teeth issue, you are comparing chewing on a plant vs a hard pellet. Do you really think they are similar?

They never had to chew on the pellet! They simply grabbed and swallowed. This is a new problem.

I'm so sad about all of this. Ugh!

 

[Libby1]

P.s. What do you say about this? It's a screen shot of two reviews of General Cure, posted on Amazon.

The first review talks about medicating the food, etc. and I really would want to know more about it to see if I should be doing that, and how to do it safely.

The second one says it worked so fast - so I'm not understanding why I don't see a difference yet after 2 treatments... or maybe I shouldn't rush it and just be patient?

 

[Andy Sager]

Haha! Okay, I'm gonna try doing the response thing... let's see if this forum likes me as much as it likes you lol

Oh! It works!! Wait -- inflamed ovary! Wow I didn't know that's possible. What can I do to fix that??? And what may have caused it (if that's what it is) .. the nitrates...?? The fact that I'm treating them with General Cure, could that potentially help heal this?

Fish can get a number of diseases. If it's a body part, it can get infected. No, General cure will not treat an infection. You would need to use an internal antibiotic like Kanamycin or Minocycline depending on your water's pH. The meds are absorbed trough the skin and gills. You can make medicated foods but the if the fish doesn't eat them, they don't get into the fish. I prefer to medicate tanks but not main tanks. I use Antibiotics in separate Hospital Tanks.

How in the world does one do an x-ray on a fish.....?? Also, that probably runs into thousands of dollars, no...?? I'm gonna re-read what you wrote about the Epsom salt. And I'll follow your instructions. I really pray it helps..

Yes, it will probably be very expensive but unless you have x-ray eyes, it's the only way to see inside a live fish. I've done plenty of autopsies after the fact but those just confirmed or disputed my diagnosis.

Okay. But also, I need to know if there's anything else I should be doing to deworm, or whatever is going on. Like, I'm not treating their food with any medication or salt or anything. I'm afraid to do it without expert advice from someone who knows exactly how it should be done, or what should not be done. Do you know anything about this stuff? I'm afraid to follow random online posts.. although they do say it worked.

This is how to make Kanaplex medicated food: https://forum.seachem.com/forum/general-discussion/2922-how-to-feed-kanaplex

Yes but slowly the poison leaves their system, no?? Has to be. Because otherwise my fish would not be straightening out, etc.

Yes but that doesn't mean that permanent damage was not done to the organs or muscles. Poisons do a n umber of things to a body that don't always go away just because the victim lives.

Got it. Thanks! I would not have known! I'll go back and check the dose you suggested.


Every few months I rinse it out gently.

Haha too late -- it worked!!

They never had to chew on the pellet! They simply grabbed and swallowed. This is a new problem.

You weren't born this old were you? As everything ages, things change. Fish are no different. They have teeth but we are trying to feed them foods that not every fish developed teeth to eat them with. Just look at the human mouth. You don't grind your food with your incisors, you use your molars for grinding. You don't use your molars for biting into a food, you use your incisors. Silver Dollars do not naturally eat hard pelleted foods so they don't have teeth for that. Pacus have grinding teeth which is why they can eat nuts and seeds but how often do we feed Pacus nuts and seeds? Silver Dollars mostly eat vegetable matter. That's not a hard food to grind, that's a soft food that needs to be torn. That's the kind of teeth they have. They are ideal for soft foods like flakes and live foods or thawed frozen foods.

I'm so sad about all of this. Ugh!

 

[Andy Sager]

P.s. What do you say about this? It's a screen shot of two reviews of General Cure, posted on Amazon.

The first review talks about medicating the food, etc. and I really would want to know more about it to see if I should be doing that, and how to do it safely.

The second one says it worked so fast - so I'm not understanding why I don't see a difference yet after 2 treatments... or maybe I shouldn't rush it and just be patient?

If you don't see a difference after a full treatment course, the fish doesn't have worms or doesn't have the kind of worms the medication treats which is why you are not seeing any difference. Deworming is usually very quick. The second dose is to get the worms that hatched after the first treatment.
As for General Cure, since it contains ingredients to cover all the most common internal worm species, if it's not working, again, it's because your fish does not have worms.

 

[Libby1]

If you don't see a difference after a full treatment course, the fish doesn't have worms or doesn't have the kind of worms the medication treats which is why you are not seeing any difference. Deworming is usually very quick. The second dose is to get the worms that hatched after the first treatment.
As for General Cure, since it contains ingredients to cover all the most common internal worm species, if it's not working, again, it's because your fish does not have worms.

Damn. Well, the bloating did not go down as of yet. She is swimming fine, though, and I put a small piece of lettuce into the tank and she was part of the devouring crew. And btw she chewed it just fine! So her teeth are good. Which I'm relieved about. Also, as of this morning my fish seem a bit more lively which I'm also happy to see.. perhaps the meds are helping some underlying thing?

The real question now is --- what is that bloating??? I really, really don't wanna have to remove her to a hospital tank due to giving other meds - and I don't wanna medicate my main tank. So it's like a catch 22. Also, she's swimming around strongly so why stress her out.

What I'm not understanding is, how come nobody else on this forum is stepping in to join our solution-seeking discussion here; perhaps someone has had this type of experience and would know what it might be...??? I am desperate to figure this out so I can help my fish heal and live many more happy, healthy years.

 

[Andy Sager]

Damn. Well, the bloating did not go down as of yet. She is swimming fine, though, and I put a small piece of lettuce into the tank and she was part of the devouring crew. And btw she chewed it just fine! So her teeth are good. Which I'm relieved about. Also, as of this morning my fish seem a bit more lively which I'm also happy to see.. perhaps the meds are helping some underlying thing?

The real question now is --- what is that bloating??? I really, really don't wanna have to remove her to a hospital tank due to giving other meds - and I don't wanna medicate my main tank. So it's like a catch 22. Also, she's swimming around strongly so why stress her out.

What I'm not understanding is, how come nobody else on this forum is stepping in to join our solution-seeking discussion here; perhaps someone has had this type of experience and would know what it might be...??? I am desperate to figure this out so I can help my fish heal and live many more happy, healthy years.

Without trying to sound like a braggart or thinking my sh*t don't stink, I humbly say that I doubt there is anyone else on this forum with as much experience with fish keeping or medicating as I have. I was on my way to becoming a veterinarian before remaining in the fish business so not only do I have 60 years of fish keeping experience and 45+ years in the pet industry with most of it in the fish part the business, freshwater and saltwater and have worked in or owned every aspect of the tropical fish business, I also have medical experience and have been hired by multiple companies because of having this knowledge. Your situation is complex and because the fish have shown signs of poisoning, you have to take " normal" out of the equation because of the poisoning. There are situations with animal husbandry that are just out of our control. ( i.e. swallowing pieces of gravel or other non natural items. ) As I stated before, the only way to know exactly what is happening with your fish is to have it x-rayed or have blood work done for signs of infection. Not only is that usually expensive but finding a Vet that can do that is hard to find but not impossible. (Just search for Veterinary schools and ask for their fish Drs list. ) That means that without those results, we have to use educated guesses. The 3 most likely possibilities with bloated fish are Infection, constipation or parasites. With constipation, the fish usually stop feeding once they start to expand as your fish has. That's not what's happening according to you. You have tried to deworm the fish and that apparently has not worked as well according to you. The last step to try is antibiotic for infection. Just because you do not want to remove the fish to a separate hospital tank does not mean that that is not the correct procedure to do. With that, your next option is to feed the medicated food. That will help medicate the fish without the downside of affecting your biological filter.
In the end tho, there is also the possibility that since your fish is close to it's natural life span, it is possible that your fish's anatomy has changed due to it's age. The ovaries in fish are 2 long sacks that run inside the body cavity. They normally take up hollow space but that doesn't mean they are stuck there. As you can see in this pic ( ) the ovaries run along side the body and not just in the underbelly. Since your fish do not have an elongated body shape, the ovaries will be more compact and when the eggs inside enlarge showing they are ready for spawning, they could be the reason why the bulge is so pronounced and nothing you do will change this. Once the fish either spawns or absorbs the eggs, the swelling will remain. There is another possibility which is the fish has become eggbound and that will eventually cause the ovary to become infected as the egg(s) dies off. This is a secondary cause of infection vs the initial internal infection I earlier stated due to other circumstances.
So you see, you are more likely to stumble onto a " cure", if there is one, rather than knowing which path to address first without any outside medical testing. Sorry but that's just the facts with internal issues. External issues are easy because you can see with your eyes or microscope if it's a bacteria, a fungus, a parasite or a genetic fault and address it but you do not have that option with internal issues. It's a process of elimination. To be honest, I've only seen body disfigurement from being egg bound a couple of times but I had my fish's schedule written down so when a fish went off cycle, I usually addressed it quickly before anything got worse. That said, I have lost a number of fish due to being egg bound because fish don't have a voice that could tell me what was wrong or that they were having issues. Fish do not always show their illnesses before it's too late. What I do know is that no matter what the deformity, if a fish is eating, that is a good sign that the fish is not suffering from the deformity. In other words, it's bothering you more than it's bothering the fish.

So you have 2 options, 1) try the medicated food. 2) leave things be, make sure the nitrate level is as low as possible and do more frequent water changes to keep it low and the water clean.

Regarding the fish's teeth or them spitting their food in and out: Do your own research online and you will find most answers will include the following:
Some fish also spit their food out if the particles are too big, breaking them down into smaller more manageable sizes.
Also, some fish like to taste their food before eating it - Bettas and Siamese Fighters are well known for this!
and
To determine if a fish's teeth are bothering them, look for signs like reduced appetite, difficulty eating, visible signs of mouth irritation (redness, swelling), excessive rubbing of the mouth against tank decor, clamped fins, lethargy, or noticeable changes in eating behavior such as picking at food or only eating soft foods when they usually eat harder items; if you suspect an issue, consult a veterinarian specializing in aquatic animals.

 

[Libby1]

Without trying to sound like a braggart or thinking my sh*t don't stink, I humbly say that I doubt there is anyone else on this forum with as much experience with fish keeping or medicating as I have. I was on my way to becoming a veterinarian before remaining in the fish business so not only do I have 60 years of fish keeping experience and 45+ years in the pet industry with most of it in the fish part the business, freshwater and saltwater and have worked in or owned every aspect of the tropical fish business, I also have medical experience and have been hired by multiple companies because of having this knowledge. Your situation is complex and because the fish have shown signs of poisoning, you have to take " normal" out of the equation because of the poisoning. There are situations with animal husbandry that are just out of our control. ( i.e. swallowing pieces of gravel or other non natural items. ) As I stated before, the only way to know exactly what is happening with your fish is to have it x-rayed or have blood work done for signs of infection. Not only is that usually expensive but finding a Vet that can do that is hard to find but not impossible. (Just search for Veterinary schools and ask for their fish Drs list. ) That means that without those results, we have to use educated guesses. The 3 most likely possibilities with bloated fish are Infection, constipation or parasites. With constipation, the fish usually stop feeding once they start to expand as your fish has. That's not what's happening according to you. You have tried to deworm the fish and that apparently has not worked as well according to you. The last step to try is antibiotic for infection. Just because you do not want to remove the fish to a separate hospital tank does not mean that that is not the correct procedure to do. With that, your next option is to feed the medicated food. That will help medicate the fish without the downside of affecting your biological filter.
In the end tho, there is also the possibility that since your fish is close to it's natural life span, it is possible that your fish's anatomy has changed due to it's age. The ovaries in fish are 2 long sacks that run inside the body cavity. They normally take up hollow space but that doesn't mean they are stuck there. As you can see in this pic ( View attachment 391023 ) the ovaries run along side the body and not just in the underbelly. Since your fish do not have an elongated body shape, the ovaries will be more compact and when the eggs inside enlarge showing they are ready for spawning, they could be the reason why the bulge is so pronounced and nothing you do will change this. Once the fish either spawns or absorbs the eggs, the swelling will remain. There is another possibility which is the fish has become eggbound and that will eventually cause the ovary to become infected as the egg(s) dies off. This is a secondary cause of infection vs the initial internal infection I earlier stated due to other circumstances.
So you see, you are more likely to stumble onto a " cure", if there is one, rather than knowing which path to address first without any outside medical testing. Sorry but that's just the facts with internal issues. External issues are easy because you can see with your eyes or microscope if it's a bacteria, a fungus, a parasite or a genetic fault and address it but you do not have that option with internal issues. It's a process of elimination. To be honest, I've only seen body disfigurement from being egg bound a couple of times but I had my fish's schedule written down so when a fish went off cycle, I usually addressed it quickly before anything got worse. That said, I have lost a number of fish due to being egg bound because fish don't have a voice that could tell me what was wrong or that they were having issues. Fish do not always show their illnesses before it's too late. What I do know is that no matter what the deformity, if a fish is eating, that is a good sign that the fish is not suffering from the deformity. In other words, it's bothering you more than it's bothering the fish.

So you have 2 options, 1) try the medicated food. 2) leave things be, make sure the nitrate level is as low as possible and do more frequent water changes to keep it low and the water clean.

Regarding the fish's teeth or them spitting their food in and out: Do your own research online and you will find most answers will include the following:
Some fish also spit their food out if the particles are too big, breaking them down into smaller more manageable sizes.
Also, some fish like to taste their food before eating it - Bettas and Siamese Fighters are well known for this!
and
To determine if a fish's teeth are bothering them, look for signs like reduced appetite, difficulty eating, visible signs of mouth irritation (redness, swelling), excessive rubbing of the mouth against tank decor, clamped fins, lethargy, or noticeable changes in eating behavior such as picking at food or only eating soft foods when they usually eat harder items; if you suspect an issue, consult a veterinarian specializing in aquatic animals.

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to explain to me in so much detail the ins and outs of scenarios and possibilities surrounding this situation, and in general, which gives me better understanding of fishkeeping and perspective of many aspects here. I always want to understand things as much as I can. So thanks.

Secondly, much respect to you for all the years of experience and knowledge!!! I did not doubt your expertise; if it came across that way, I apologize! I just wondered if it would be beneficial to perhaps hear others' advice as well, but I see you know what's up on a broad spectrum!

Regarding the problem at hand. I was wondering how I could tell if it's constipation, and you answered my question that the fish would stop eating if it were getting more and more constipated. I was worried to feed it because I was afraid I could do it more harm, but of your opinion, do you feel that constipation can be ruled out and I could feed it with no worries regarding that?

Also, it gives me a certain peace of mind knowing that if she's eating it shows that she is not suffering from the deformity. I'm just hoping she could live many years despite that. Which leads me to my next question:

You listed the 2 options I have. Option 1 being medicated food: do you feel I should do that? Or would you opt for option 2 which is leave things be and monitor/control my water perimeters? Is option 2 risky in terms of the possibility of the ovaries being infected? Or would there have been more signs by now if there was actual infection, versus deformity possibly due to one of the reasons you mentioned? Is it irresponsible for me to consider option 2, or is there a chance that it's totally okay to do that because she might not have infection just the deformity? (I know it's hard to tell... I can't afford huge expenses right now unfortunately so I'm hoping we can succeed by analyzing as best as possible.... although I'll research the x-ray possibility)

If you do suggest medicated food... my blood parrot gobbles up so much of the food/pellets (he's so obnoxious and harasses my other fish) is it okay to medicate the food and put it into the tank even if the others eat it, too? Or am I being naive and the correct way to do it is transfer it to another tank, feed it, then transfer back...? (which as you know I hate to do I even get so stressed out by each water change cuz I know how frightened silver dollars get for nothing lol) Or maybe it's okay because if any of the other fish caught infection it could heal them as well? (just brainstorming.. sorry for all the jumbled questions)

Also, I'm assuming it's safer not to medicate if not necessary or if it won't help.. so that's why I'm trying to dissect the situation as much as possible so we can determine what the best approach is..

Oh and what do I do about the General Cure....? I gave them 2 treatments. Should I do a third, just in case it did help with any underlying issues? Because my other fish (the silver dollars) look emaciated which I read could be due to a parasite of sorts (maybe the hex thing?) so perhaps it's a good thing to rule everything else out? Also perhaps it's because they were being fed extremely little for a long time now. They are eating, thank goodness. And like I mentioned, as of today they are swimming more actively. Today they all ate from the lettuce. I'm wondering if I should give them more. (I gave a small piece of a medium sized leaf, the very green part)

Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to work on this with me!!! I truly appreciate it.

 

[Andy Sager]

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to explain to me in so much detail the ins and outs of scenarios and possibilities surrounding this situation, and in general, which gives me better understanding of fishkeeping and perspective of many aspects here. I always want to understand things as much as I can. So thanks.

That's fine. Just understand that there are going to be things that either defy explanation or need a lot more education on your part to decipher.

Secondly, much respect to you for all the years of experience and knowledge!!! I did not doubt your expertise; if it came across that way, I apologize! I just wondered if it would be beneficial to perhaps hear others' advice as well, but I see you know what's up on a broad spectrum!

No problem. If you read my bio here, you'd see that my knowledge is not only broad but it pertains to many animals as well. Here's my M: Me and Charlie ( I was much younger then.

Regarding the problem at hand. I was wondering how I could tell if it's constipation, and you answered my question that the fish would stop eating if it were getting more and more constipated. I was worried to feed it because I was afraid I could do it more harm, but of your opinion, do you feel that constipation can be ruled out and I could feed it with no worries regarding that?

Also, it gives me a certain peace of mind knowing that if she's eating it shows that she is not suffering from the deformity. I'm just hoping she could live many years despite that. Which leads me to my next question:

You listed the 2 options I have. Option 1 being medicated food: do you feel I should do that? Or would you opt for option 2 which is leave things be and monitor/control my water perimeters? Is option 2 risky in terms of the possibility of the ovaries being infected? Or would there have been more signs by now if there was actual infection, versus deformity possibly due to one of the reasons you mentioned? Is it irresponsible for me to consider option 2, or is there a chance that it's totally okay to do that because she might not have infection just the deformity? (I know it's hard to tell... I can't afford huge expenses right now unfortunately so I'm hoping we can succeed by analyzing as best as possible.... although I'll research the x-ray possibility)

If you do suggest medicated food... my blood parrot gobbles up so much of the food/pellets (he's so obnoxious and harasses my other fish) is it okay to medicate the food and put it into the tank even if the others eat it, too? Or am I being naive and the correct way to do it is transfer it to another tank, feed it, then transfer back...? (which as you know I hate to do I even get so stressed out by each water change cuz I know how frightened silver dollars get for nothing lol) Or maybe it's okay because if any of the other fish caught infection it could heal them as well? (just brainstorming.. sorry for all the jumbled questions)

Also, I'm assuming it's safer not to medicate if not necessary or if it won't help.. so that's why I'm trying to dissect the situation as much as possible so we can determine what the best approach is..

Oh and what do I do about the General Cure....? I gave them 2 treatments. Should I do a third, just in case it did help with any underlying issues? Because my other fish (the silver dollars) look emaciated which I read could be due to a parasite of sorts (maybe the hex thing?) so perhaps it's a good thing to rule everything else out? Also perhaps it's because they were being fed extremely little for a long time now. They are eating, thank goodness. And like I mentioned, as of today they are swimming more actively. Today they all ate from the lettuce. I'm wondering if I should give them more. (I gave a small piece of a medium sized leaf, the very green part)

Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to work on this with me!!! I truly appreciate it.

I was going to answer all the questions as they came but let me bottom line this:
You need to choose a treatment method and follow it fully through to determine if it was effective. General cure says to use 2 treatments then after 48 hours after the second treatment, do a 25% water change and add back NEW carbon or a new filter cartridge. If you haven't done that, you need to do that. I would not repeat the medicine.
No, I can't fully rule out constipation but the signs look promising that it isn't but with a lack of food, there's nothing to push the clog out with. What I would do is, 24 hours after changing the water from the General Cure and adding back the carbon, treat the tank with the Epsom Salt to help relax the fish's muscles so that IF this is a clog or the fish is egg bound, there is a better chance it can clear this way. Leave it in the water for 7-10 days before removing through water changes. If you do any water changes due to nitrate rise during the treatment period, add back Epsom salt only for the amount of water you changed.

Feed the fish!!!! Fish don't heal when they are starving. Slowly increase the amount of food you feed. If you are currently only feeding once per day, feed them once a day for 2-3 days then increase to twice a day for 3-4 days then increase to 3 times per day. Feed them no more than they can eat in 1 to 2 minutes. The amount of food they will eat will probably decrease for the second then the third feeding so don't assume all feedings will be of the same amount. If the Blood parrot is a pig, use a divider to separate him from the Dollars so they can eat in peace then remove the divider.

IF there is no change after the full treatments of Epsom salt and General Cure: Make the medicated food, Use the divider to isolate the Female and feed her the medicated food while feeding the other fish their regular diet. After feeding, remove the divider.

If there are no changes after these 3 treatments, there's nothing more YOU can do for the fish. It would be up to a Vet whether there are any other options they can do.

All else I can say is that the fish are old. There may not be more "years" in them. It's just an unknown how long they will actually live. Based on history, their average lifespan under the best continuous conditions is about 10 years for Silver Dollars. If you've had the fish for 9 years, they are living on borrowed time. Hopefully they can borrow more of it.

 

[Libby1]

That's fine. Just understand that there are going to be things that either defy explanation or need a lot more education on your part to decipher.

No problem. If you read my bio here, you'd see that my knowledge is not only broad but it pertains to many animals as well. Here's my M: Me and Charlie ( I was much younger then.

Hehe alright! I'll read up on you
I love animals btw. So that's awesome, that you have all that knowledge. We've attempted to save little birds that have fallen out of their nest, etc. It's hard to nail it! But amazing to try and when you succeed, it's the best feeling.

I was going to answer all the questions as they came but let me bottom line this:
You need to choose a treatment method and follow it fully through to determine if it was effective. General cure says to use 2 treatments then after 48 hours after the second treatment, do a 25% water change and add back NEW carbon or a new filter cartridge. If you haven't done that, you need to do that. I would not repeat the medicine.
No, I can't fully rule out constipation but the signs look promising that it isn't but with a lack of food, there's nothing to push the clog out with. What I would do is, 24 hours after changing the water from the General Cure and adding back the carbon, treat the tank with the Epsom Salt to help relax the fish's muscles so that IF this is a clog or the fish is egg bound, there is a better chance it can clear this way. Leave it in the water for 7-10 days before removing through water changes. If you do any water changes due to nitrate rise during the treatment period, add back Epsom salt only for the amount of water you changed.

Okay.. first, thanks. Now if I may, I am going to describe to you what I did in terms of the medication, based on my LFS because that's the instructions I followed (I posted here after that) and it's not based on what it says on the actual instructions on the box. So that might determine whether you would suggest a slightly different approach than what you wrote, or if I should stick to your suggestion anyway.

So per my LFS instructions: This past Thursday evening I removed the carbon filter, then did a 30% water change and dosed the water with General Cure. I added some aquarium salt (wasn't aware of the epsom salt at the time). Then on Sunday by day I did another 30% water change, and another dose of the medication, no salt added. Today he told me to do a 30% water change tomorrow, and on Thursday add another dose of the medication. And said it could take a long time for the bloatedness to go down. But then again, what does he know really. I am confused at this point.

So now the question is, since I did do a water change before my second dose (and instructions don't say to do a water change, only 48 hours after the second treatment) should I still stop treatment or maybe I should do the third dose on Thursday? The box does say that a full course is considered at least 2 treatments; I don't remember where I saw that a third was necessary (I've been reading people's experiences using it). I don't want to overdose though, of course.

Also, I replaced my carbon literally just a couple of weeks ago; do I still need to place a brand new one in the tank...? I guess in case it has any disease in it..? Rinsing it wouldn't suffice, right?

Feed the fish!!!! Fish don't heal when they are starving. Slowly increase the amount of food you feed. If you are currently only feeding once per day, feed them once a day for 2-3 days then increase to twice a day for 3-4 days then increase to 3 times per day. Feed them no more than they can eat in 1 to 2 minutes. The amount of food they will eat will probably decrease for the second then the third feeding so don't assume all feedings will be of the same amount. If the Blood parrot is a pig, use a divider to separate him from the Dollars so they can eat in peace then remove the divider.

Yikes!! I'm having so much guilt about the feeding, although in truth, they didn't have amazing appetite till a short time ago. I'll keep building them. Question is, what food is best to feed them, especially since we're trying to push out any potential blockage. Should I not feed pellets, but rather greens like lettuce or spinach leaves? (they love both, and silver dollars thrive on green veggies) Or should I alternate between the two? And I also have frozen blood worms but read somewhere that it could actually cause indigestion if used too often.. maybe now's not the time?

Today when I put the lettuce in, I saw my parrot was harassing my silver dollars (literally not allowing them to approach the lettuce! That little monster. Yes, he's a pig.) so I gave him some pellets, just a tiny few. I wish I had fed them more lettuce because they gobbled it up and it wasn't a big piece.

IF there is no change after the full treatments of Epsom salt and General Cure: Make the medicated food, Use the divider to isolate the Female and feed her the medicated food while feeding the other fish their regular diet. After feeding, remove the divider.

Great idea to use a divider! I could imagine my fish might get really spooked (yikessss it stresses me out like crazy) and my parrot might get so pissed.. but worth a try. I'll do research to find one for my tank (I have a 36-gal bowfront). I'm freaked out to use it so that I don't stress them out but I might have no choice.

In case I need to make the medicated food, what's your suggestion on how to make it?

 

[Andy Sager]

Hehe alright! I'll read up on you
I love animals btw. So that's awesome, that you have all that knowledge. We've attempted to save little birds that have fallen out of their nest, etc. It's hard to nail it! But amazing to try and when you succeed, it's the best feeling.

I used to breed Cockatiels, 3 types of Finches as well as Canaries. My Dad was breeding Canaries when I was born. I know the feeling of raising baby birds.

Okay.. first, thanks. Now if I may, I am going to describe to you what I did in terms of the medication, based on my LFS because that's the instructions I followed (I posted here after that) and it's not based on what it says on the actual instructions on the box. So that might determine whether you would suggest a slightly different approach than what you wrote, or if I should stick to your suggestion anyway.

So per my LFS instructions: This past Thursday evening I removed the carbon filter, then did a 30% water change and dosed the water with General Cure. I added some aquarium salt (wasn't aware of the epsom salt at the time). Then on Sunday by day I did another 30% water change, and another dose of the medication, no salt added. Today he told me to do a 30% water change tomorrow, and on Thursday add another dose of the medication. And said it could take a long time for the bloatedness to go down. But then again, what does he know really. I am confused at this point.

So now the question is, since I did do a water change before my second dose (and instructions don't say to do a water change, only 48 hours after the second treatment) should I still stop treatment or maybe I should do the third dose on Thursday? The box does say that a full course is considered at least 2 treatments; I don't remember where I saw that a third was necessary (I've been reading people's experiences using it). I don't want to overdose though, of course.

Also, I replaced my carbon literally just a couple of weeks ago; do I still need to place a brand new one in the tank...? I guess in case it has any disease in it..? Rinsing it wouldn't suffice, right?

I don't hold much faith in your fish advisor. If you got the 2 doses into the fish and nothing happened, I'd stop using it. Yes, you need to use fresh carbon. Throw away what came out of the tank. It's not reusable.

Yikes!! I'm having so much guilt about the feeding, although in truth, they didn't have amazing appetite till a short time ago. I'll keep building them. Question is, what food is best to feed them, especially since we're trying to push out any potential blockage. Should I not feed pellets, but rather greens like lettuce or spinach leaves? (they love both, and silver dollars thrive on green veggies) Or should I alternate between the two? And I also have frozen blood worms but read somewhere that it could actually cause indigestion if used too often.. maybe now's not the time?

Today when I put the lettuce in, I saw my parrot was harassing my silver dollars (literally not allowing them to approach the lettuce! That little monster. Yes, he's a pig.) so I gave him some pellets, just a tiny few. I wish I had fed them more lettuce because they gobbled it up and it wasn't a big piece.

They need a higher vegetable diet so the spinach or romaine lettuce are good sources of vitamins as well as fiber. You can also feed spirulina flakes for convenience. I'd add to it meat protein foods like the Frozen blood worms, the gut loaded Brine Shrimp or frozen or live Daphnia to the mix. What makes these important is that these animals have chiton in their skeletons ( exoskeletons actually) which is very good for digestion. So when you get to the 3 meals a day, I would feed either Romaine, Spinach or even Watercress as the first meal. Put a whole leaf of Romaine or Watercress or Parsley or a few leaves of spinach in the tank and let them go at it for 1-2 minutes then remove what remains. Use a different Vegetable or the Spirulina flakes for the second meal. Feed one of the meat foods as the last meal of the day. I'd also get all three meat foods and feed a different one each day. ( As for the pellets you currently have, I'd soften them and mix them in with the meat foods until you use them up. Do not overfeed them. I would not rebuy them. )

Great idea to use a divider! I could imagine my fish might get really spooked (yikessss it stresses me out like crazy) and my parrot might get so pissed.. but worth a try. I'll do research to find one for my tank (I have a 36-gal bowfront). I'm freaked out to use it so that I don't stress them out but I might have no choice.

You can get sheets of plexiglass in assorted sizes at places like Home Depot or Lowes and cut it to shape or have them cut it to shape. Just bring the dimensions including the bow. I wouldn't go past 1/3 of the tank so you won't need the dimensions at the middle of the bow. To make it easier on you, place 4 rocks, 2 in the front of the tank & 2 in the back on the bottom of the tank to act as holders for the divider. This way you just have to escort the desired fish to the side of the tank with the divider then slip the divider between the rocks. Use chip clips on either side of the top ( front and back) to hold the divider in place .

In case I need to make the medicated food, what's your suggestion on how to make it?

I gave you a link in my earlier post directly from Seachem's blog. The directions are in that blog.

 

[Libby1]

I used to breed Cockatiels, 3 types of Finches as well as Canaries. My Dad was breeding Canaries when I was born. I know the feeling of raising baby birds.

Awww!! That is too adorable!! I actually have a bird; an obnoxious, too-smart-for-his-own-good conure
He was actually abandoned by his owners so I took him in, but they trained him so badly; when he wants something he gets insanely loud and I get so mad lol. I've managed at certain periods of time to teach him to make sweet sounds when he wants food, etc. and it worked, but then he goes and reverts right back to his bad habits. When they bought him he was 2 weeks old and if he ever needed anything he screeched, and instead of training him they gave him food and what-not to shut him up. Great parenting, wouldn't you agree! So I'm stuck with a SUPER LOUD and obnoxious bird but in truth, he's really adorable and so smart and when he makes his sweet noises I love him. Lol. Do I sound all over the place I think you get what I'm saying!! Birds are awesome. Oh, btw, how did you get them not to poop all over the place????? He kind of poops on demand but if I don't poop him every 5-10 minutes, oh dear there's poop anyplace.

I don't hold much faith in your fish connection. If you got the 2 doses into the fish and nothing happened, I'd stop using it. Yes, you need to use fresh carbon. Throw away what came out of the tank. It's not reusable.

My only question is, when I was focusing on the nitrate problem, I did see some alarming stringy white stuff when I suctioned the gravel. And my silver dollars got the skinny look, both which seem to be symptoms of parasites of sorts (the hex thing I mentioned) which General Cure is supposed to help. So that's my only question, is it possible they were more lively today because it did help fix an underlying problem? I don't know what the bloating is.. but is the above-mentioned a reason you'd feel I should do the 3rd dose? Or you still say not to. By the way I'm not trying to challenge what you're saying, just running all the details by you just in case.

Also, should I hold off on tomorrow's water change so the medication is in the tank for a day longer? I did a water change on Sunday.

Gonna respond to the food in a bit, just gotta run out for a little and will be back soon and will hop back on here. Thank you so much for everything!!

They need a higher vegetable diet so the spinach or romaine lettuce are good sources of vitamins as well as fiber. You can also feed spirulina flakes for convenience. I'd add to it meat protein foods like the Frozen blood worms, the gut loaded Brine Shrimp or frozen or live Daphnia to the mix. What makes these important is that these animals have chiton in their skeletons ( exoskeletons actually) which is very good for digestion. So when you get to the 3 meals a day, I would feed either Romaine, Spinach or even Watercress as the first meal. Put a whole leaf of Romaine or Watercress or Parsley or a few leaves of spinach in the tank and let them go at it for 1-2 minutes then remove what remains. Use a different Vegetable or the Spirulina flakes for the second meal. Feed one of the meat foods as the last meal of the day. I'd also get all three meat foods and feed a different one each day. ( As for the pellets you currently have, I'd soften them and mix them in with the meat foods until you use them up. Do not overfeed them. I would not rebuy them. )

You can get sheets of plexiglass in assorted sizes at places like Home Depot or Lowes and cut it to shape or have them cut it to shape. Just bring the dimensions including the bow. I wouldn't go past 1/3 of the tank so you won't need the dimensions at the middle of the bow. To make it easier on you, place 4 rocks, 2 in the front of the tank & 2 in the back on the bottom of the tank to act as holders for the divider. This way you just have to escort the desired fish to the side of the tank with the divider then slip the divider between the rocks. Use chip clips on either side of the top ( front and back) to hold the divider in place .

I gave you a link in my earlier post directly from Seachem's blog. The directions are in that blog.

 

[Andy Sager]

Awww!! That is too adorable!! I actually have a bird; an obnoxious, too-smart-for-his-own-good conure
He was actually abandoned by his owners so I took him in, but they trained him so badly; when he wants something he gets insanely loud and I get so mad lol. I've managed at certain periods of time to teach him to make sweet sounds when he wants food, etc. and it worked, but then he goes and reverts right back to his bad habits. When they bought him he was 2 weeks old and if he ever needed anything he screeched, and instead of training him they gave him food and what-not to shut him up. Great parenting, wouldn't you agree! So I'm stuck with a SUPER LOUD and obnoxious bird but in truth, he's really adorable and so smart and when he makes his sweet noises I love him. Lol. Do I sound all over the place I think you get what I'm saying!! Birds are awesome. Oh, btw, how did you get them not to poop all over the place????? He kind of poops on demand but if I don't poop him every 5-10 minutes, oh dear there's poop anyplace.

I didn't train birds to poop on command. They went when they needed to go. Same thing with my Monkey. If I didn't let him get off of me when he needed to go, I got a little wet or pooped on. Thankfully his diet was such that the poops were solid so they just rolled off. LOL

My only question is, when I was focusing on the nitrate problem, I did see some alarming stringy white stuff when I suctioned the gravel. And my silver dollars got the skinny look, both which seem to be symptoms of parasites of sorts (the hex thing I mentioned) which General Cure is supposed to help. So that's my only question, is it possible they were more lively today because it did help fix an underlying problem? I don't know what the bloating is.. but is the above-mentioned a reason you'd feel I should do the 3rd dose? Or you still say not to. By the way I'm not trying to challenge what you're saying, just running all the details by you just in case.

I told you what I would do if it were my fish. If the medicine worked and the worms died, the bloat would be smaller. If your advisor told you about Epsom salt when he told you about the general cure, this question would most likely be moot because: If the full 2 doses of the med didn't kill the worms, the third dose won't either. If the worms are dead inside the fish. it means the fish can't shed them. THAT is what you need to determine and address at this point. If the food and relaxed muscles don't get the area smaller, it's most likely not worms. If the bulge gets bigger with the food and the relaxed muscles, the fish is constipated or there is an intestinal issue that would need surgical correction. All you can do is work on the constipation if that is the most likely diagnosis.

Also, should I hold off on tomorrow's water change so the medication is in the tank for a day longer? I did a water change on Sunday.

Gonna respond to the food in a bit, just gotta run out for a little and will be back soon and will hop back on here. Thank you so much for everything!!

 

[Libby1]

No, I said to use Epsom Salt, not aquarium salt. Aquarium salt is Sodium chloride. Epsom salt is Magnesium Sulfate. 2 VERY different chemicals. Do not add aquarium salt. Pick up Epsom Salt at any pharmacy or medicine aisle of the grocery store. It's usually very cheap. Just make sure it has no additives.

Hi there, my day ended up being insane which is also why I did not end up doing a water change yesterday. I'm going to do one soon, just wanted to double check with you on the details. As a refresher, I had dosed my tank with 2 rounds of General Cure (but did do a water change between the two doses, and the instructions do not say to do a water change, only after the second dose... do you think the treatment still had full potency?)

So today I'm going to add Epsom Salt after my water change so we could try to help relax her muscles, per your suggestion, and hopefully that helps. (I'm gonna look up the dose you mentioned; but if I remember correctly it's 2 tbsp per 5 gal? I have a 36-gal.. I'm afraid to add that much salt! Maybe I just need a yelling.....)

Also, I'm adding back the carbon filter today, right? (new one). And should I feed them less after putting the salt in...? Or it doesn't make a difference or cause harm to feed them?

Thank you!

P.s. by the way.. I just remembered that at some point (before I treated with General Cure) I noticed some strange white stuff sticking to the top of my tank walls (where the top of the water touches. Not crazy much, but enough to surprise me). Which was alarming; I've never had that. Which leads me to believe there may have indeed been something in my tank, so I don't regret treating with General Cure anyway just in case it got rid of whatever that was.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi there, my day ended up being insane which is also why I did not end up doing a water change yesterday. I'm going to do one soon, just wanted to double check with you on the details. As a refresher, I had dosed my tank with 2 rounds of General Cure (but did do a water change between the two doses, and the instructions do not say to do a water change, only after the second dose... do you think the treatment still had full potency?)

They received 2 treatments. Do not add a third.

So today I'm going to add Epsom Salt after my water change so we could try to help relax her muscles, per your suggestion, and hopefully that helps. (I'm gonna look up the dose you mentioned; but if I remember correctly it's 2 tbsp per 5 gal? I have a 36-gal.. I'm afraid to add that much salt! Maybe I just need a yelling.....)

You may need a yelling to but that's not what I do. I will however suggest that apparently your memory is not as good as you think so you should read back through the replies in your thread before doing anything because the correct dosage is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of actual water, not 2. Just make sure you get Epsom Salt with no additives. The ingredients should only read Magnesium Sulfate and nothing else. (If you are unsure, ask the pharmacist if you are picking plain Epsom Salt with no additives , fragrances or dyes. ) You may have a 36 gallon tank but you do not have 36 gallons of water in the tank. I strongly suggest you mark the top of the water line on the tank then remove exactly 5 gallons of water and then measure the water level up to the mark you made so you know how much space those 5 gallons take up. Then measure the water from the top mark before the water was removed to the top of the substrate. Divide that number by how much space the 5 gallons took up and you will know how much actual water you have in the tank and how many tablespoons of Epsom Salt to add. ( It's very simple math. )

Also, I'm adding back the carbon filter today, right? (new one). And should I feed them less after putting the salt in...? Or it doesn't make a difference or cause harm to feed them?

Yes add the carbon. The Epsom salt will not affect the food. Read through my previous response on how to INCREASE food.

Thank you!

P.s. by the way.. I just remembered that at some point (before I treated with General Cure) I noticed some strange white stuff sticking to the top of my tank walls (where the top of the water touches. Not crazy much, but enough to surprise me). Which was alarming; I've never had that. Which leads me to believe there may have indeed been something in my tank, so I don't regret treating with General Cure anyway just in case it got rid of whatever that was.

Internal worms will not leave any outward signs like this so what you saw is most likely related to the nitrates and food you fed. The tank was polluted so froth is not unusual under those conditions.

 

[Libby1]

They received 2 treatments. Do not add a third.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying and for remaining patient with me through all my repeat questions!!

You may need a yelling to but that's not what I do. I will however suggest that apparently your memory is not as good as you think so you should read back through the replies in your thread before doing anything because the correct dosage is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of actual water, not 2.

Thanks for not yelling at me lol. I actually do appreciate it. And yes -- you're right about being mistaken with what I remembered. I was gonna look back at the discussion anyway before dosing, but I'm glad you caught that!!

And yikes on measuring the water in my tank... but I will somehow attempt to do so lol. But either way, I don't have to freak out about adding so much salt, right..? It won't affect my water quality, the fish, etc negatively (don't hate me please!!) Also, I don't remember exactly when I had added the aquarium salt.. but I don't have to be concerned about that, right? I will do a approx 30% water change now so it should flush out plenty of that. (I think)

Yes add the carbon. The Epsom salt will not affect the food. Read through my previous response on how to INCREASE food.

Yes.. I need to buy some of the stuff you mentioned. It's a bit tough because I probably have to still feed pellets due to my blood parrot; he can't chew on veggies. Yesterday I put a piece of lettuce in the tank, my silver dollars loved it. And then a bit later I gave my blood parrot a few pellets. Interestingly, the other fish didn't really come up for it but it's possible the lettuce made them happy enough...

As for today, I'm thinking to start them with lettuce again (or parsley leaves) and a bit later to feed them one cube of frozen blood worms. I'm hoping it does the situation good.

Internal worms will not leave any outward signs like this so what you saw is most likely related to the nitrates and food you fed. The tank was polluted so froth is not unusual under those conditions.

Thanks for clarifying and explaining! Now I know. And these bits of information are important.

 

[Andy Sager]

Got it. Thanks for clarifying and for remaining patient with me through all my repeat questions!!

Thanks for not yelling at me lol. I actually do appreciate it. And yes -- you're right about being mistaken with what I remembered. I was gonna look back at the discussion anyway before dosing, but I'm glad you caught that!!

People think fish keeping is just about tossing some water into a container and adding fish to it. It's more complicated than that and attention to detail is quite important. When it comes to diagnosing things, it's not always the one thing that's important but the combination of the many things that happened before you noticed the one thing that makes correct diagnosing possible. People shouldn't just look at their fish tanks, they should study their fish tanks as well to see if anything is out of sorts with all the fish or just one fish. Fish develop habits so it's easy to tell when something is off because the fish is not acting according to habit. In the case of feeding, if you fed at the same times every day and at the same spot every day, the fish will know to be at that spot a few minutes before you feed. They can be that predictable.

And yikes on measuring the water in my tank... but I will somehow attempt to do so lol. But either way, I don't have to freak out about adding so much salt, right..? It won't affect my water quality, the fish, etc negatively (don't hate me please!!) Also, I don't remember exactly when I had added the aquarium salt.. but I don't have to be concerned about that, right? I will do a approx 30% water change now so it should flush out plenty of that. (I think)

It's very simple math. For example: If 5 gallons of water took up 1 inch of space and your tank held 10 inches of water, 10 x 5 = 50 gallons of actual water. If 5 gallons took up 2 inches of water and you had 10 inches of water in the tank, 10" divided by 2" = 5. 5 x 5 gallons = 25 actual gallons of water. Once you know how many actual gallons of water you have, the easier it is to know how much water is 30% or whatever percentage of water you are looking to change.

Yes.. I need to buy some of the stuff you mentioned. It's a bit tough because I probably have to still feed pellets due to my blood parrot; he can't chew on veggies. Yesterday I put a piece of lettuce in the tank, my silver dollars loved it. And then a bit later I gave my blood parrot a few pellets. Interestingly, the other fish didn't really come up for it but it's possible the lettuce made them happy enough...

I forgot about the parrot. You can still buy foods for the parrot because that fish is more a carnivore and needs different food than the Dollars. It will still benefit from the foods with chiton for it's digestive system as well but those should not be it's only food. As for the other fish not eating the pellets, because you have been starving them ( or feeding them very little) their stomachs will have shrunk so less food fills them faster. This is why you gradually increase food amounts and not just toss in a lot of food at once.

As for today, I'm thinking to start them with lettuce again (or parsley leaves) and a bit later to feed them one cube of frozen blood worms. I'm hoping it does the situation good.

Follow the feeding schedule for increasing feeding amounts.

Thanks for clarifying and explaining! Now I know. And these bits of information are important.

 

[Libby1]

Oh - quick question - should the tablespoon be heaping or flat? (I'm guessing flat...?)

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh - quick question - should the tablespoon be heaping or flat? (I'm guessing flat...?)

Flat. A heaping tablespoon is more than a tablespoon.

 

[Libby1]

It's very simple math. For example: If 5 gallons of water took up 1 inch of space and your tank held 10 inches of water, 10 x 5 = 50 gallons of actual water. If 5 gallons took up 2 inches of water and you had 10 inches of water in the tank, 10" divided by 2" = 5. 5 x 5 gallons = 25 actual gallons of water. Once you know how many actual gallons of water you have, the easier it is to know how much water is 30% or whatever percentage of water you are looking to change.

Does it make sense my tank holds only 28.33 gallons of water??? It's a bow-front, I'm afraid that needs to be taken into equation. Should I assume it holds approx 31 gallons? (I measured from the top of where my water is filled. Also, I'm guessing it's better if I dissolve the salt before adding it...? And also, 5 tablespoons of salt based on the 28 gallons) sounds like so much salt!! (sorry I'm just so freaked out about everything so I need the reassurance lol)

 

[Libby1]

Does it make sense my tank holds only 28.33 gallons of water??? It's a bow-front, I'm afraid that needs to be taken into equation. Should I assume it holds approx 31 gallons? (I measured from the top of where my water is filled. Also, I'm guessing it's better if I dissolve the salt before adding it...? And also, 5 tablespoons of salt based on the 28 gallons) sounds like so much salt!! (sorry I'm just so freaked out about everything so I need the reassurance lol)

Okay. So here's what I did...

30% water change, replaced the carbon filter with a new one. Did NOT dose the tank again with General Cure per your instructions. Regarding the epsom salt....... you might yell at me this time.....yikes. I got scared and ended up putting 3 tablespoons instead of 5 (Or would I have needed 6? I'm still confused due to what I asked you about the bow-front feature). And I diluted the salt mostly, before adding it slowly to the water. Because people wrote scary stuff online. I shouldn't be reading stuff online except right here, while speaking to the expert! I know, I know.

Questions:
1) Will the 3 tablespoons potentially make the difference? Or it's too diluted?
2) how long do we wait and monitor to start seeing a difference hopefully? Someone wrote that for constipation it could take 10 days or so. (again, that's just online stuff)
3) I will check my nitrate levels tomorrow, but I'm guessing it's gonna be around 30 or 35. So the question is how often to do a water change at this point. The salt is in there, and any medication residue.
4) Oh, also, I did not feed them today... someone was saying it's important not to feed them the first day you add the epsom salt.. are you in agreement with that?

At some point I'd love to discuss what I can potentially do with the nitrate problem to help it. I guess it doesn't have to be right now. Because doing water changes twice per week is something I can try to maintain but knowing my crazy schedule, there's definitely gonna be weeks when I will not be able to do that. Also, I hate doing anything in my tank because my silver dollars are such idiots (I love them, don't worry) because they get spooked so easily!!! Also, my blood parrot has been harassing them a lot lately. It really bothers me. Maybe cuz he's hungry..? Who knows.

Thanks!