Nitrate poisoning and I'm desperate to save my fish!!!! Please help...

[Libby1]

No. This is the end result of having a big fish in a small tank. It's not only about space. It's about water quality and it's very hard to keep water quality up in a small tank with a big fish no matter how large the filter media is. Right now, you have a water parameter that is making nitrification be slower so the toxic ammonia is present longer which is not good for the fish. If you need to go away for 2 or 3 days, I'd really push to get answers on whether the person can take your fish before you go away. Yes, it sucks but you may not like the results if you don't.

Hi, so I tested my ammonia just now it's almost at zero, maybe even zero but it's not the "deep" yellow shade, just a softer yellow so I guess it's not 100% there yet? My nitrates are approx 10-15. I fed the fish yesterday but very little because I'm being cautious with my feeding approach. I did a 30% water change yesterday (fresh water. Not using the old tank water anymore) during the day. (fed him after the water change) I didn't check my nitrites or PH today, only yesterday when I updated you.

What I'm confused about is, you had told me that when my ammonia is down to zero and my nitrates are rising, then my tank is cycled. My ammonia seems to be getting there, my nitrates aren't necessarily growing... what does this mean? Is it because I'm feeding very little? Is it possible that my tank did indeed get mostly cycled by now? I'm just trying to understand where I'm at.

In terms of the fish, he's doing great thank G-d. He's playful when I approach the tank, swims around in general, re-arranges stuff, marks his territory.

Bumpy Fish is doing fine as well except she became so picky with the eating. I need to figure out what else to try with her. How often do you feel it's safe to feed a cube of the frozen blood worms? She loves that and it's the only thing she came running to eat.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi, so I tested my ammonia just now it's almost at zero, maybe even zero but it's not the "deep" yellow shade, just a softer yellow so I guess it's not 100% there yet? My nitrates are approx 10-15. I fed the fish yesterday but very little because I'm being cautious with my feeding approach. I did a 30% water change yesterday (fresh water. Not using the old tank water anymore) during the day. (fed him after the water change) I didn't check my nitrites or PH today, only yesterday when I updated you.

What I'm confused about is, you had told me that when my ammonia is down to zero and my nitrates are rising, then my tank is cycled. My ammonia seems to be getting there, my nitrates aren't necessarily growing... what does this mean?

You are probably seeing a reduction in ammonia due to the water changes. As you can see in this graph, you are fully cycled when the ammonia and nitrites go up then down and the nitrates rise.
Because you are not feeding as much and the fish has settled down, there is less ammonia production. That will change when you start feeding him enough to keep him healthy. Keep in mind that it takes the 2 microbes for the ammonia and nitrites to eventually produce nitrates . You need to see if the ammonia continues to go down without doing the water changes. If it does, that's a sign that the 1st microbe is establishing and consuming the amount of ammonia present but they are only fully established when the ammonia production is consumed within 24 hours. Definitely start keeping track of the nitrites as well as the ammonia.

Is it because I'm feeding very little? Is it possible that my tank did indeed get mostly cycled by now? I'm just trying to understand where I'm at.

In terms of the fish, he's doing great thank G-d. He's playful when I approach the tank, swims around in general, re-arranges stuff, marks his territory.

Bumpy Fish is doing fine as well except she became so picky with the eating. I need to figure out what else to try with her. How often do you feel it's safe to feed a cube of the frozen blood worms? She loves that and it's the only thing she came running to eat.

You can also add the frozen gut loaded brine shrimp as they are full of an algae so just some extra nutrition and vegetation. You are going to have to try some different foods to find what she will accept. Ask your local shop if they have samples of foods for you to try. In the case of my Monkey, as he got older his tastes changed. He went from eating a protein biscuit almost all his life to not touching them in his final 2 years with me. He would eat eggs sometimes, bugs sometimes, but would eat cottage cheese all the time. That was a food he never had in 19 years but apparently fit his needs. My Vet had told me to try ANYTHING to find what he preferred. I just so happened to have some cottage cheese in the house because my Wife had had some dental work and needed to eat soft foods for a week. It was just a shot in the dark. So you never know what is going to work.

 

[Libby1]

You are probably seeing a reduction in ammonia due to the water changes. As you can see in this graph, you are fully cycled when the ammonia and nitrites go up then down and the nitrates rise. View attachment 391411
Because you are not feeding as much and the fish has settled down, there is less ammonia production. That will change when you start feeding him enough to keep him healthy. Keep in mind that it takes the 2 microbes for the ammonia and nitrites to eventually produce nitrates . You need to see if the ammonia continues to go down without doing the water changes. If it does, that's a sign that the 1st microbe is establishing and consuming the amount of ammonia present but they are only fully established when the ammonia production is consumed within 24 hours. Definitely start keeping track of the nitrites as well as the ammonia.

Oh wow, so many details.. thanks for explaining it.

I'll test my nitrites. I just don't know what to expect; if it's above zero (I hope not) when do I need to panic? versus, what's expected and okay? And do I need to do a water change if it's above zero? And at which point?

Also, I know he's in a tiny tank but should I add a live plant to the tank to help the process...? Just a thought.

I think I'm gonna feed him a bit more now. I fed him some pellets before, he consumed it quickly.

You can also add the frozen gut loaded brine shrimp as they are full of an algae so just some extra nutrition and vegetation. You are going to have to try some different foods to find what she will accept. Ask your local shop if they have samples of foods for you to try. In the case of my Monkey, as he got older his tastes changed. He went from eating a protein biscuit almost all his life to not touching them in his final 2 years with me. He would eat eggs sometimes, bugs sometimes, but would eat cottage cheese all the time. That was a food he never had in 19 years but apparently fit his needs. My Vet had told me to try ANYTHING to find what he preferred. I just so happened to have some cottage cheese in the house because my Wife had had some dental work and needed to eat soft foods for a week. It was just a shot in the dark. So you never know what is going to work.

Oh wow, that is so interesting! Okay I'll call my LFS and find out what they have. If I add the frozen gutloaded brine shrimp, how often is it safe to feed that and the blood worms..? Like, how many times per week.

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh wow, so many details.. thanks for explaining it.

I'll test my nitrites. I just don't know what to expect; if it's above zero (I hope not) when do I need to panic? versus, what's expected and okay? And do I need to do a water change if it's above zero? And at which point?

You need to do a water change if you have a combined value above .25 ppm of ammonia + nitrite together. So for example, a Nitrite reading of .05 combined with a nitrite reading of .10 = .15 combined and no need for a water change however, a reading of .10 ammonia and .20 of nitrites = .30 ppm means you should do a water change to bring them both down.

Also, I know he's in a tiny tank but should I add a live plant to the tank to help the process...? Just a thought.

He'll probably tear it up.

I think I'm gonna feed him a bit more now. I fed him some pellets before, he consumed it quickly.

You'd gobble them up too if you haven't eaten in days.

Oh wow, that is so interesting! Okay I'll call my LFS and find out what they have. If I add the frozen gutloaded brine shrimp, how often is it safe to feed that and the blood worms..? Like, how many times per week.

They are safe to feed daily but I would not rely on them solely as the only diet. The reason they are safe daily is because both items contain chiton which aids in digestion. That said, they lack a high nutritional value which is why you shouldn't rely on them as a total diet. I always fed my fish a chiton based food as the last food of the day so that it helped push out whatever else the fish had eaten during the day.

 

[Libby1]

You need to do a water change if you have a combined value above .25 ppm of ammonia + nitrite together. So for example, a Nitrite reading of .05 combined with a nitrite reading of .10 = .15 combined and no need for a water change however, a reading of .10 ammonia and .20 of nitrites = .30 ppm means you should do a water change to bring them both down.

Oh!! Thanks for explaining this!
Okay. So I just now checked my parameters:

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate probably around 24/25. So my nitrates grew since yesterday..

Am I correct that based on what you explained above, I should not do a water change today and just see if by tomorrow the ammonia went down or up.. to know where I'm up to with the cycling?

Also, I'm gonna feed him now. That's okay even with the 0.25 ammonia, yes? I'm guessing it's important for the biosystem to fall into place? Yesterday when my ammonia was almost zero I fed him, not that little. I guess a "neat" portion. If that's the right terminology to use.

They are safe to feed daily but I would not rely on them solely as the only diet. The reason they are safe daily is because both items contain chiton which aids in digestion. That said, they lack a high nutritional value which is why you shouldn't rely on them as a total diet. I always fed my fish a chiton based food as the last food of the day so that it helped push out whatever else the fish had eaten during the day.

Oh, interesting. So you're saying the fresh veggies are even more beneficial than the blood worms, if I understand correctly..

I would appreciate to hear your take on this:
Is it possible that Bumpy Fish is eating but I don't see her eat? I fed them frozen blood worms just now and she came running, grabbed a huge bunch in her mouth and I got so excited (hasn't happened in so long!) but then she spit it out. Then right afterwards she went for 3 pieces that were floating together, and she spit it out again. Then, she took in a piece at a time but just a few pieces. But those may have stayed inside her, she didn't spit it. Then I saw her chew on something (finally) and it may have been a tiny piece of parsley leaf that was floating around. And after that she searched in the gravel (which I also haven't seen her do in a while). Is it possible she just needs to slowly get back to her comfort zone of eating (realizing that the bully isn't there anymore) and the ability to eat properly? And that somehow she's getting food into her system? I'm trying all I could. And yes, she's very skinny. But I don't know what else to do, and I'm seeing slow progress since I removed the parrot... so I'm hopeful.. but a bit anxious.

Thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh!! Thanks for explaining this!
Okay. So I just now checked my parameters:

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate probably around 24/25. So my nitrates grew since yesterday..

Am I correct that based on what you explained above, I should not do a water change today and just see if by tomorrow the ammonia went down or up.. to know where I'm up to with the cycling?

Also, I'm gonna feed him now. That's okay even with the 0.25 ammonia, yes? I'm guessing it's important for the biosystem to fall into place? Yesterday when my ammonia was almost zero I fed him, not that little. I guess a "neat" portion. If that's the right terminology to use.

Since you've reached the highest level of safety BEFORE you fed the fish, you should do a water change sometime tonight because it's obvious that the feeding yesterday raised the ammonia level which means there are not enough of the microbes present yet to handle that kind of load. Check the ammonia level tomorrow morning and again tomorrow night and you will know if you are going up or going down.

Oh, interesting. So you're saying the fresh veggies are even more beneficial than the blood worms, if I understand correctly..

For the Silver Dollars, yes. For a Carnivore fish like the Parrot, no

I would appreciate to hear your take on this:
Is it possible that Bumpy Fish is eating but I don't see her eat? I fed them frozen blood worms just now and she came running, grabbed a huge bunch in her mouth and I got so excited (hasn't happened in so long!) but then she spit it out. Then right afterwards she went for 3 pieces that were floating together, and she spit it out again. Then, she took in a piece at a time but just a few pieces. But those may have stayed inside her, she didn't spit it. Then I saw her chew on something (finally) and it may have been a tiny piece of parsley leaf that was floating around. And after that she searched in the gravel (which I also haven't seen her do in a while). Is it possible she just needs to slowly get back to her comfort zone of eating (realizing that the bully isn't there anymore) and the ability to eat properly? And that somehow she's getting food into her system? I'm trying all I could. And yes, she's very skinny. But I don't know what else to do, and I'm seeing slow progress since I removed the parrot... so I'm hopeful.. but a bit anxious.

Since they don't have a knife and fork to cut the pieces into a smaller size, they put food in their mouths and then spit it out into smaller pieces. As long as you see the fish not spit out some food, it means they are swallowing it. That she's looking around the gravel means she's hungry so I'd have food available for her to chew on all day long. Put a leaf in in the morning and then remove when the lights go out at night.

Thanks!

 

[Libby1]

Since you've reached the highest level of safety BEFORE you fed the fish, you should do a water change sometime tonight because it's obvious that the feeding yesterday raised the ammonia level which means there are not enough of the microbes present yet to handle that kind of load. Check the ammonia level tomorrow morning and again tomorrow night and you will know if you are going up or going down.

Good morning,

So I did a 25% water change last night.. I just now tested my ammonia and it's between 0.25 - 0.50 ( quite a bit closer to 0.5)
Nitrite is at zero

Do I need to worry about the ammonia? At which point do I have to do a water change? Now, or check in a bunch of hours, like around 5:00pm?

For the Silver Dollars, yes. For a Carnivore fish like the Parrot, no

Good to know.

Since they don't have a knife and fork to cut the pieces into a smaller size, they put food in their mouths and then spit it out into smaller pieces. As long as you see the fish not spit out some food, it means they are swallowing it. That she's looking around the gravel means she's hungry so I'd have food available for her to chew on all day long. Put a leaf in in the morning and then remove when the lights go out at night.

I will put in a leaf, and some parsley leaves. I guess I shouldn't worry if I don't actually see her eat..? Could it be that the fact that she did chew on something the other day, means she's eating, I just don't get to see it?

 

[Andy Sager]

Good morning,

So I did a 25% water change last night.. I just now tested my ammonia and it's between 0.25 - 0.50 ( quite a bit closer to 0.5)
Nitrite is at zero

Do I need to worry about the ammonia? At which point do I have to do a water change? Now, or check in a bunch of hours, like around 5:00pm?

If it's closer to .5 then do a larger water change. For example, a 50% water change should bring the ammonia down to .25. If by tonight the ammonia is back up close to the .5, you know you are on the upwards trend and that means daily water changes to keep the ammonia level tolerable while not at zero.

Good to know.


I will put in a leaf, and some parsley leaves. I guess I shouldn't worry if I don't actually see her eat..? Could it be that the fact that she did chew on something the other day, means she's eating, I just don't get to see it?

Anything is possible. If you see chew marks in the leaves, you know the fish are eating. The only way to know for sure that SHE is eating is to see her eat since you have the other 2 fish in with her.

 

[Libby1]

If it's closer to .5 then do a larger water change. For example, a 50% water change should bring the ammonia down to .25. If by tonight the ammonia is back up close to the .5, you know you are on the upwards trend and that means daily water changes to keep the ammonia level tolerable while not at zero.

Okay, interestingly, I just now checked the ammonia and it's now less than 0.25 and probably a bit closer to zero, or maybe right in the middle. And this change happened since my testing this morning. What does this mean? I did not feed him yet today, though. And I did the last water change last night.

I'm only able to change water either now, or tomorrow night after 7:00pm. I hope I'm lucky and you see this message in the next few minutes so I know what to do... I don't wanna do a water change and remove any beneficial ammonia levels...

 

[Aiken Drum]

If your ammonia and nitrite are both below 0.25ppm, and your nitrate is below 20ppm, no need to do a water change today.

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay, interestingly, I just now checked the ammonia and it's now less than 0.25 and probably a bit closer to zero, or maybe right in the middle. And this change happened since my testing this morning. What does this mean? I did not feed him yet today, though. And I did the last water change last night.

I'm only able to change water either now, or tomorrow night after 7:00pm. I hope I'm lucky and you see this message in the next few minutes so I know what to do... I don't wanna do a water change and remove any beneficial ammonia levels...

Check your ammonia again tomorrow morning or before you change any water. As Aiken & I have said, as long as the combined level of Ammonia and Nitrite are .25 or below, no need to panic about changing water.
What's becoming hard to work out is that when you fed the fish, there is going to be more ammonia in the water than if you don't feed at all so you have to keep track of the ammonia level a number of hours after feeding the fish vs the ammonia level when you don't feed. If the microbes can remove that after feeding ammonia in under 24 hours, that's a good thing. If it can't, that's a bad thing ( in respect that the biological bed just isn't growing fast enough and that is most likely because your pH is too low for maximum growth. )

 

[Libby1]

Okay so I did not do a water change yesterday. Today at 1:00pm (before I fed my parrot, and I hadn't fed him the day before) my ammonia was basically at zero, nitrite zero, nitrate not more than 20. I fed my fish.

Now I checked my ammonia (it's 10:45pm so almost 10 hours later) and it's basically at zero but not quite. Might have the slightest tinge of green... or maybe it just looks that way because it's not the deep yellow of the actual zero rating. What are your thoughts? Can I assume that's a good sign?

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay so I did not do a water change yesterday. Today at 1:00pm (before I fed my parrot, and I hadn't fed him the day before) my ammonia was basically at zero, nitrite zero, nitrate not more than 20. I fed my fish.

Now I checked my ammonia (it's 10:45pm so almost 10 hours later) and it's basically at zero but not quite. Might have the slightest tinge of green... or maybe it just looks that way because it's not the deep yellow of the actual zero rating. What are your thoughts? Can I assume that's a good sign?

Yes but you need to check it again today to see if the microbes filtered out that " not quite zero" ammonia or not.

 

[Libby1]

Okay, here's a recap and update on the status:

So the last water change I did was on Thursday night. (as indicated in thread #127)
Then we had the further exchange of information (thank you so much for guiding me)

We last left it off at Saturday night, when I updated you that I fed my fish on Saturday approx 1:00pm, and that night my ammonia was "basically" zero.. but not the deep yellow.

Yesterday (the next morning; Sunday) at approximately 1:00pm my ammonia was zero, and nitrite 0. I fed my fish. Sunday at approx 6:30pm my ammonia was at zero.

This morning (Monday) at 11:00am my ammonia was zero. I fed my fish.
At 5:15pm (a bit more than 6 hrs later) here's what it was:
Nitrite 0
Nitrate approx 25/30
Ammonia was zero-ish (that same light yellow, not the deep kind, so is there the slightest tinge of green..? Hard to tell. But likely no green, but definitely not the deep yellow)

I will check it tomorrow morning and will update you, but would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

Looks good like the biological filter is fully active.

 

[Libby1]

Looks good like the biological filter is fully active.

Wow thank G-d. I'm very relieved. Seems it took about a week to establish it.

I just now checked my ammonia, it's zero, just still not the deep yellow. Just regular yellow.
I'll feed my fish soon and check again later just to see what it's at.

So what does this mean now, do I still have to check daily? Or is once a week enough, and do a water change as necessary? At this point it's more than 4 days since I did my last 25% water change and it's been holding up..

Thank you so much for walking me through this. Now that I know my parrot's water is safe, I can soon start figuring out my next move.

 

[Andy Sager]

Wow thank G-d. I'm very relieved. Seems it took about a week to establish it.

I just now checked my ammonia, it's zero, just still not the deep yellow. Just regular yellow.
I'll feed my fish soon and check again later just to see what it's at.

So what does this mean now, do I still have to check daily? Or is once a week enough, and do a water change as necessary? At this point it's more than 4 days since I did my last 25% water change and it's been holding up..

Thank you so much for walking me through this. Now that I know my parrot's water is safe, I can soon start figuring out my next move.

Just imagine, if the water's pH was in the " optimal level" for the microbes, this should have taken a couple of days instead of a week. That's why it's the most recommended way of cycling an aquarium.
Because it's a big fish in a small tank, I would get into a routine of twice a week doing a water change to keep the tank clean. That will prevent a lot of problems that dirty tanks create.
Definitely work on your next move soon because it's still not the optimal tank for the Parrot.

 

[madi.ayala10]

Hi, thanks so much for the advice and validation. I really hope they still get to live many healthy years.. I'm so scared of that time coming..

Regarding the planted tank, I am trying to wrack my brains to figure out how to keep plants in a tank where the fish will devour it within just a few days. I would need some kind of mesh "compartment" or something for it to grow in.. if that makes any sense. I should really do the research on that. Also, I would need to figure out which plants are specifically good for nitrates control. I you happen to know, I'd love to hear.

I would definitely recommend pothos. It’s not an aquatic plant, so to grow it it aquariums you put the roots in the water and the vines out of the water coming out of the tank. It’s okay if some vines are in the water, it’s just a few that have to be out. Pothos roots absolutely devour nitrates and seems good for the situation your in. I’ve also not seen many fish eat pothos roots so that’s a plus. You can also also try some fully aquatic plants but they might get eaten. How is the tank doing though? Any improvement ?

 

[Libby1]

Just imagine, if the water's pH was in the " optimal level" for the microbes, this should have taken a couple of days instead of a week. That's why it's the most recommended way of cycling an aquarium.
Because it's a big fish in a small tank, I would get into a routine of twice a week doing a water change to keep the tank clean. That will prevent a lot of problems that dirty tanks create.
Definitely work on your next move soon because it's still not the optimal tank for the Parrot.

How can I maintain the water's PH to be optimal level (and what number would that be...?) Would the right amount of crushed coral do the job..?

Also, I am very very worried about "Bumpy Fish". She has not been eating, from what I see, and her fins are becoming a bit frayed at the edges. And she's breathing fast. And I'm wondering if I see some fraying at the gills...??? Is that even possible...?? But she swims around (except she rests a lot). What should I do...?? What could be the problem...?? I'm panicked.

 

[Andy Sager]

How can I maintain the water's PH to be optimal level (and what number would that be...?) Would the right amount of crushed coral do the job..?

Also, I am very very worried about "Bumpy Fish". She has not been eating, from what I see, and her fins are becoming a bit frayed at the edges. And she's breathing fast. And I'm wondering if I see some fraying at the gills...??? Is that even possible...?? But she swims around (except she rests a lot). What should I do...?? What could be the problem...?? I'm panicked.

I hate to say it but that sounds like you are seeing her end of life stages. The resting a lot is a sign of that. When the fish get old and are not eating well, they have no substance to maintain the health of the tissues and the fins. Usually at that stage, other fish in a tank or in nature will pick on and at the diminished fish. I'm just assuming the other 2 fish in with her are not picking at her. If I'm wrong about that, we are back to square one where she would need to be isolated from the other fish. Sadly, this is a reality in the pets we keep. They do not have a lifespan as long as ours so we have to experience deaths. You can take comfort in that you did keep her for so many years ( 10 I believe) which is basically their natural lifespan. You can't stop the inevitable, you can only delay it and you've done that.

As for the pH issue, crushed coral is just one way of helping keep pH at an alkaline state but that is done when the crushed coral dissolves after the water turns to an acid state. There is no formula for how much crushed coral is needed to achieve a certain pH level in a certain sized tank. The best pH level for nitrification is the upper 7s to lower 8s. If your source water is not that high, you will run into issues where you add lower pH water and the fish adjusts to that and then the pH rises from the coral dissolving and then you do a large water change because there are high nitrates because your fish is big and needs a good amount of food to stay healthy and because you have the pH in the better nitrification zone so they are producing nitrates at the optimal level, you risk putting the fish into pH shock from dropping the pH too much too rapidly using lower pH water for the change. In your case, since your source water's pH is lower 7s if I recall, doing water changes will be your best bet instead of trying to alter the pH to a different level. Getting that Parrot into a larger tank, no matter where, is still the best thing to do for it. You are trying to build a sand castle at the water's edge with the expectation that a wave won't wash that castle away. A 10 gallon tank is not the right tank for an adult Blood Parrot.