Panda Cory Spirling?

[MysticSkye]

I have 7 panda cory fish in my 75g tank along with 28 neons and 7 white clouds. Oh and 2 mystery snails and one nerite. Recently, I noticed one of the cory fish swimming in spirals or like a corkscrew, will seem as though it's in dire need laying on side a little bit breathing rapidly for a few seconds then calms down and acts like nothing ever happened. I was worried after Googling for HOURS that it'd be some kind of parasite or whirling disease (which I read is commonly found in Salmon) so I place the little guy in a hospital tank to monitor. He's done the spiriling once without any stimuli but then again, goes back to normal. I do a water change every day and noticed when he gets "startled" he goes into an episode. He has been in there for 3 days now and on the first night I put one sinking pellet and like one or two daphnia. I didn't see it the next day but could have disintegrated. I didn't feed him on the second night and today I placed one pellet again and he hasn't touched it. I started treating him with Paragard but not seeing any difference, could need more time. I feel so bad he is in there alone since he did go back to "normal" after his episodes, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice a whole tank if he DID have some kind of infectious disease or whatever. SO, has anyone had this experience? Is a lost cause? All other fish in tank are fine, parameters are 0 ppm ammonia, nitrite, and even my nitrates are 0 ppm. pH is a steady 8.0 and temp. is a steady 75 with maybe a degree drop during the night. Thanks in advance!

I feel like my tank is "perfect" in the sense I've done and got levels all right, but I guess some fish just aren't strong as the rest.

Other Info:
- Filtration: Fluval 407 & Sponge filter
- Tank Mates: 28 Neons, 7 white clouds, 2 mystery and 1 nerite snail
- Last Water Change: I do a 30% (~20g) every Friday
- Ownership Time: I purchased in a group a little over a month ago
- Haven't added anything new to the tank
- I put shrimp sinking pellets & Algae chips (alternate between the two) Oh, I've also seen the cory fish nibble on my protein & calcium tabs I put in for the snails 1-2x a week, but mostly my snails hog it...they sit on the chips and no one else is able to eat any lol

 

[Andy Sager]

You need to give it time. Catfish can go through weird things when swimming but since it could be an internal parasite, you don't want to expose the other fish to it.

 

[MysticSkye]

Figured. You think it'd still be a good idea to keep doing daily water changes in the hospital tank? I know clean water is the best for healing and the hospital tank is 5g. I've had a spare smaller sponge filter running in my main tank to gain BB and added that to the hospital tank and an almond leaf (that the cory currently hides under) and one plastic plant decor piece, bare bottom, no substrate. I haven't noticed any white, stringy poop. So I guess that's a good sign? Thanks for the response =)

 

[Andy Sager]

Figured. You think it'd still be a good idea to keep doing daily water changes in the hospital tank? I know clean water is the best for healing and the hospital tank is 5g. I've had a spare smaller sponge filter running in my main tank to gain BB and added that to the hospital tank and an almond leaf (that the cory currently hides under) and one plastic plant decor piece, bare bottom, no substrate. I haven't noticed any white, stringy poop. So I guess that's a good sign? Thanks for the response =)

Unfortunately, nothing you've done besides the paragard will help if it's a parasite. A hospital tank should be bare and sterile without anything in there that could interact with the medication being use. As for water changes, you only do them AS PER DIRECTED by the medication. Doing them more than recommended just wastes medicine and doing them when not directed to can diminish the effect of them because it's in the presence of these medications, things work.
You can read the proper way to set up a hospital tank in this thread , post #2: Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different?
The type of parasites that cause cranial issues will not be found in the intestines so no stringy poop does not really mean anything for this.

 

[MysticSkye]

Unfortunately, nothing you've done besides the paragard will help if it's a parasite. A hospital tank should be bare and sterile without anything in there that could interact with the medication being use. As for water changes, you only do them AS PER DIRECTED by the medication. Doing them more than recommended just wastes medicine and doing them when not directed to can diminish the effect of them because it's in the presence of these medications, things work.
You can read the proper way to set up a hospital tank in this thread , post #2: Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different?
The type of parasites that cause cranial issues will not be found in the intestines so no stringy poop does not really mean anything for this.

Ahh. True, if it's neurological it wouldn't be seen in waste (well duh, that makes sense once I see in writing lol) I almost wondered if it was simply a defect in this particular fish. I bought the fish with a group of corys & so far (fingers crossed) this one is the only one showing these symptoms. Fish are difficult because you try and be a marine biologist overnight. I read a post about the Fish Hand Keeping book that was SUPER interesting and helpful, however, with some cases you simply won't know unless you look under a microscope and are skilled enough to identify bacterial or parasite cells. The flow chart was really nice and provided PLENTY of information for the, "If it's this, then it's that" sort of thing.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ahh. True, if it's neurological it wouldn't be seen in waste (well duh, that makes sense once I see in writing lol) I almost wondered if it was simply a defect in this particular fish. I bought the fish with a group of corys & so far (fingers crossed) this one is the only one showing these symptoms. Fish are difficult because you try and be a marine biologist overnight. I read a post about the Fish Hand Keeping book that was SUPER interesting and helpful, however, with some cases you simply won't know unless you look under a microscope and are skilled enough to identify bacterial or parasite cells. The flow chart was really nice and provided PLENTY of information for the, "If it's this, then it's that" sort of thing.

Can you post a link to that book please. I'd like to see it. I've been using and recommending this book since 1980 because of the diagnostic flow chart: Handbook of Fish Diseases (Smaller Size) PDF | PDF | Gallon | Litre . It was ( and may still be) the best diagnosing book for the average hobbyist. The problem now is that there are new diseases that aren't included in this book and some of the medications it suggests are no longer available to the hobbyist. For most diseases common to the hobby, it's a great book.

As for your fish in particular, Panda cories have always been tough. Add to that that bottom dwelling fish are prone to picking up parasites that live and/or breed in the substrate and you have an unfortunate situation that you can't see until enough time has gone by. This is why quarantine times of just a few days or a few weeks is still not sufficient. While rare, there are parasites with life cycles of over 100 days so you are talking about quarantining for 3-4 months if you really want to be 100% sure your fish isn't infected. Bacterial and fungal diseases usually appear in the first 7-10 days but parasites, a much more hazardous issue, can take a long time to show up unless you are doing bloodwork or other diagnostic pathologies to rule them out and that is just cost prohibitive and unrealistic for the tropical fish hobby.

 

[MysticSkye]

Can you post a link to that book please. I'd like to see it. I've been using and recommending this book since 1980 because of the diagnostic flow chart: Handbook of Fish Diseases (Smaller Size) PDF | PDF | Gallon | Litre . It was ( and may still be) the best diagnosing book for the average hobbyist. The problem now is that there are new diseases that aren't included in this book and some of the medications it suggests are no longer available to the hobbyist. For most diseases common to the hobby, it's a great book.

As for your fish in particular, Panda cories have always been tough. Add to that that bottom dwelling fish are prone to picking up parasites that live and/or breed in the substrate and you have an unfortunate situation that you can't see until enough time has gone by. This is why quarantine times of just a few days or a few weeks is still not sufficient. While rare, there are parasites with life cycles of over 100 days so you are talking about quarantining for 3-4 months if you really want to be 100% sure your fish isn't infected. Bacterial and fungal diseases usually appear in the first 7-10 days but parasites, a much more hazardous issue, can take a long time to show up unless you are doing bloodwork or other diagnostic pathologies to rule them out and that is just cost prohibitive and unrealistic for the tropical fish hobby.

ha! I had the title of the book incorrect, that is the one I was talking about with the flow chart. I haven't found or heard of any newer version of a book with similar information. It would make sense that bottom dwellers are more susceptible to disease and infections since they are near the poop and waste zone constantly! Ehh...guess it just comes with the hobby then. Do what I can to provide the best replica of an underwater habitat as possible and hope for the best.

 

[Andy Sager]

ha! I had the title of the book incorrect, that is the one I was talking about with the flow chart. I haven't found or heard of any newer version of a book with similar information. It would make sense that bottom dwellers are more susceptible to disease and infections since they are near the poop and waste zone constantly! Ehh...guess it just comes with the hobby then. Do what I can to provide the best replica of an underwater habitat as possible and hope for the best.

Well, ya got me all excited for nothing. I've been waiting for another book to be a more current replacement. Yeah, Untergasser really hit the nail on the head when this book came out. I must have made him a fortune because I know I sold a lot of this book when I working in retail pet shops. It should be on every hobbyist's bookshelf IMO ( just in case a phone or computer goes on the fritz. )

Sadly, with today's fish, the best thing you can do is quarantine everything before it goes into your main tank. The longer the better too. It's not a given that every bottom fish will be sick, just that they have a better chance of it. There are a lot of fish that swim off the bottom and a lot of non fish options for cleaning the bottom so you are not tied to bottom dwelling fish to have a great setup.

 

[MysticSkye]

Well, ya got me all excited for nothing. I've been waiting for another book to be a more current replacement. Yeah, Untergasser really hit the nail on the head when this book came out. I must have made him a fortune because I know I sold a lot of this book when I working in retail pet shops. It should be on every hobbyist's bookshelf IMO ( just in case a phone or computer goes on the fritz. )

Sadly, with today's fish, the best thing you can do is quarantine everything before it goes into your main tank. The longer the better too. It's not a given that every bottom fish will be sick, just that they have a better chance of it. There are a lot of fish that swim off the bottom and a lot of non fish options for cleaning the bottom so you are not tied to bottom dwelling fish to have a great setup.

Aweee, sorry for the disappointment Well, good news is the little guy is doing well. He's still in the hospital, but he's out forging and acting normal cory behavior. I haven't seen him go into an episode, so if he's still normal and I still haven't noticed any white stringy poop, I plan to reunite him with the crew. He did eat the one little pellet added, so that's good too, I guess. Everyone else in the tank are swimming along just fine.

 

[Andy Sager]

Aweee, sorry for the disappointment Well, good news is the little guy is doing well. He's still in the hospital, but he's out forging and acting normal cory behavior. I haven't seen him go into an episode, so if he's still normal and I still haven't noticed any white stringy poop, I plan to reunite him with the crew. He did eat the one little pellet added, so that's good too, I guess. Everyone else in the tank are swimming along just fine.

All sounds good. As for the book, glad I have another who sees how great that diagnosing flow chart is.