Plant quarantine: is it always a necessity?

[EGGBERT]

Apart from perhaps a thorough rinsing, i didn’t realize how key plant quarantining might be until i experienced a bladder snail infestation: the invaders had hitchhiked—likely in barely visible egg form or diminutive hatchlings—on either an anubius or java fern.

After embarking on this hobby i was intensely focused on water parameter issues, & i hadn’t been warned about the possible introduction of super prolific ‘unwanteds’.

Here’s a hitch: sometimes the wee invaders r a welcome addition—a food source for some, particularly the species that specializes in disappearing the pests: assassin snails…

Last summer, my 10gal tank—(which at the time housed 3 hillstream loaches & 3 assassin snails that i’d added to stem the bladder snail outbreak)—experienced another population explosion: hillstream fry & assassin snaillets.

(I’ve bartered for aquarium supplies w/50+ assassins—thus far…)

I setup a 20gal tank that became the new home for the hillstreams, a few (non-assassin) snails, & 2 African dwarf frogs.

The 10gal became the exclusive home of the assassins (eggs upon eggs hatching away, & they’re not much bigger than a chia seed when they begin their post-egg existence).

The 10gal is moderately planted; the assassins have been surviving on bloodworms since they’re so effective at decimating their fave food source.

I recently added a sorority of 3 female bettas & wanted to introduce more plants, so i obtained more java fern & another plant that’s new to me (bartered for today w/a slew of assassins).

After learning about plant quarantining, when i acquire new plants i rinse them in a mild solution of hydrogen peroxide.

Remarkably, w/my last batch of plants, this did not impact some well-concealed baby snails (not bladders—different species: ram’s horns & a type whose ID i forget). I isolated these in a 2.5gal w/the intention of adding them to the 10gal.

So—at last, the POINT of this post:
One of the plants i acquired today is visibly populated w/bladder snails. They’re currently immersed in a container w/conditioned water. My inclination is to give them a (non-aggressive) rinse & plop them in w/the sorority & the assassins.

Is that an ok move or should i be wary of parasites? If Yes (parasites) should i add an anti-parasitic remedy to the water they’re in before putting them in the 10gal?

I know from recent experience that the anti-parasitic remedy won’t harm the plants, nor the snails (on the plants). I’d like the assassins to have-at the new hitchhikers.

What should i do? Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Apart from perhaps a thorough rinsing, i didn’t realize how key plant quarantining might be until i experienced a bladder snail infestation: the invaders had hitchhiked—likely in barely visible egg form or diminutive hatchlings—on either an anubius or java fern.

After embarking on this hobby i was intensely focused on water parameter issues, & i hadn’t been warned about the possible introduction of super prolific ‘unwanteds’.

Here’s a hitch: sometimes the wee invaders r a welcome addition—a food source for some, particularly the species that specializes in disappearing the pests: assassin snails…

Last summer, my 10gal tank—(which at the time housed 3 hillstream loaches & 3 assassin snails that i’d added to stem the bladder snail outbreak)—experienced another population explosion: hillstream fry & assassin snaillets.

(I’ve bartered for aquarium supplies w/50+ assassins—thus far…)

I setup a 20gal tank that became the new home for the hillstreams, a few (non-assassin) snails, & 2 African dwarf frogs.

The 10gal became the exclusive home of the assassins (eggs upon eggs hatching away, & they’re not much bigger than a chia seed when they begin their post-egg existence).

The 10gal is moderately planted; the assassins have been surviving on bloodworms since they’re so effective at decimating their fave food source.

I recently added a sorority of 3 female bettas & wanted to introduce more plants, so i obtained more java fern & another plant that’s new to me (bartered for today w/a slew of assassins).

After learning about plant quarantining, when i acquire new plants i rinse them in a mild solution of hydrogen peroxide.

Remarkably, w/my last batch of plants, this did not impact some well-concealed baby snails (not bladders—different species: ram’s horns & a type whose ID i forget). I isolated these in a 2.5gal w/the intention of adding them to the 10gal.

That means your Peroxide dip wasn't strong enough.

So—at last, the POINT of this post:
One of the plants i acquired today is visibly populated w/bladder snails. They’re currently immersed in a container w/conditioned water. My inclination is to give them a (non-aggressive) rinse & plop them in w/the sorority & the assassins.

Is that an ok move or should i be wary of parasites? If Yes (parasites) should i add an anti-parasitic remedy to the water they’re in before putting them in the 10gal?

I know from recent experience that the anti-parasitic remedy won’t harm the plants, nor the snails (on the plants). I’d like the assassins to have-at the new hitchhikers.

You can't keep treating tanks with fish with any medication because they and their microbes can eventually become immune to the chemicals in the med. To treat a plant or fish for parasites, there has to be multiple applications to get not only the initial parasite but the eggs that hatch after the initial dose so treating them in the main tank is not a good idea.

What should i do? Please advise. TY

Bottom line if you don't want pests or hitchhikers to be in your main tank, you need to quarantine all new things that they can come in on in another tank. That means fish, plants, any materials that don't come from your own tanks, etc. Why doesn't everybody do this? Because they are in a rush to have their new purchases in their main tanks. But just like the drug commercial said, " Speed kills!!!". Look at public aquariums and zoos. They do comprehensive blood works, visual and physical assessments and do not allow any new addition to their collection to be exposed to their existing collection for at least 2-3 months even with all that information. Yes, it's an arduous task but that's what it takes to keep your existing collection safe. So, do you have the patience for that? If not, are you prepared to face the consequences of not waiting?

There are " Guaranteed pest free" plants on the market. Tissue cultured plants are one example. A google search says that Aquaflora Canada and Aquascaperoom are sources for tissue cultured plants in Canada. This doesn't help your Assassin snail food situation but does solve your pest introduction situation. If you don't want to add pests, this is your option for that. If not, buying plants that are in a shop's tanks is always a risk. So the choice is yours.

 

[EGGBERT]

If i subjected these new plants to medication, i wouldn’t do so in a fish-occupied tank, i’d do it in an unoccupied tank.

I wasn’t aware of ‘tissue cultured’/‘guaranteed pest free’ plants—that’s fantastic—thanks for enlightening me!!!

So what about the 2 plants i got yesterday: stronger peroxide dip? Or set them up in that wee hospital tank w/a dose of prazi-met?

Aside from that, i’ll look into those pest-free plant sources u recommended.

Thanks again

 

[Andy Sager]

If i subjected these new plants to medication, i wouldn’t do so in a fish-occupied tank, i’d do it in an unoccupied tank.

If you are doing it in a fishless tank, why not just leave the plant(s) in that tank ( with a bare bottom) for 30-40 days and you'd know if there was snails by then and any parasite issues would be unlikely because of no host fish?

I wasn’t aware of ‘tissue cultured’/‘guaranteed pest free’ plants—that’s fantastic—thanks for enlightening me!!!

This is a result of a lack of good fish magazines and mostly online sellers because if you were reading Mags or going to good stores, they should already know about these things.

So what about the 2 plants i got yesterday: stronger peroxide dip? Or set them up in that wee hospital tank w/a dose of prazi-met?

Aside from that, i’ll look into those pest-free plant sources u recommended.

Thanks again

 

[V227]

Several of my LFS's keep plant only display tanks. There might occasionally be a few YoYo Loaches present, to eliminate pest snails. If available, that would be the way to go.

As for using anti-parasitic meds as a preventative; exposing plants to Malachite Green & Formaldehyde probably isn't the best thing to do.

Holding new plants in a bucket of old tank water for two or three weeks is a pretty good plan.

 

[Andy Sager]

Several of my LFS's keep plant only display tanks. There might occasionally be a few YoYo Loaches present, to eliminate pest snails. If available, that would be the way to go.

As for using anti-parasitic meds as a preventative; exposing plants to Malachite Green & Formaldehyde probably isn't the best thing to do.

Holding new plants in a bucket of old tank water for two or three weeks is a pretty good plan.

The antiparasitic she's using is plant safe as per the manufacturer. No Malachite green or Formalin in the ingredients.

 

[Andy Sager]

Several of my LFS's keep plant only display tanks. There might occasionally be a few YoYo Loaches present, to eliminate pest snails. If available, that would be the way to go.

Unfortunately, this is a sign that they HAVE had snails or hitchhikers and just having fish does not guarantee against snail eggs.

As for using anti-parasitic meds as a preventative; exposing plants to Malachite Green & Formaldehyde probably isn't the best thing to do.

Holding new plants in a bucket of old tank water for two or three weeks is a pretty good plan.

 

[EGGBERT]

V227: Thanks for contributing your perspective; what fish do u keep?

Andy—no opposition here to any of your advice. I need to clarify one point: i know that one of the plants i obtained yesterday has some snail hitchhikers; i was hoping to present this plant to the assassins so they’ll have a bit of their preferred diet.
That’s why i was wondering if adding prazi-mat would kill any parasites the hitchhikers might be carrying.
After what happened w/Egg, & the possibility that he might’ve picked up a nasty from the nerite snails he shares his 5gals with—i’d prefer to do whatever necessary to prevent a similar event.

The hitchhikers appear to be bladder snails—small, but at least snack-sized for the smaller assassins i retained (i traded w/medium-med-large-sized ones).

The ram’s horn population in a 2.5gal tank r mostly at the chia-seed stage size-wise, which is why the assassins currently subsist on bloodworms.

In any case, Andy, u’ve steered me thru multiple crises so i’m inclined to follow your instructions to the letter. If u think dosing these new plants’ container w/prazi-mat would be futile, then i’ll opt for letting them standalone for a month. If u think the medication route is not the most egregious approach u’ve heard, please advise.

In the meantime, i checked out one of the ‘tissue-cultured’ plant merchants u mentioned. They won’t be shipping until mid-January (vacay, i assume); they’ve got an impressive selection—will definitely order from them in the future!

 

[Andy Sager]

V227: Thanks for contributing your perspective; what fish do u keep?

Andy—no opposition here to any of your advice. I need to clarify one point: i know that one of the plants i obtained yesterday has some snail hitchhikers; i was hoping to present this plant to the assassins so they’ll have a bit of their preferred diet.

I'd just peel off the snails you see and add them to the tank for the assassins and quarantine the plant in case there are eggs you missed.

That’s why i was wondering if adding prazi-mat would kill any parasites the hitchhikers might be carrying.
After what happened w/Egg, & the possibility that he might’ve picked up a nasty from the nerite snails he shares his 5gals with—i’d prefer to do whatever necessary to prevent a similar event.

As I've tried to explain to you multiple times, that scenario was proved to not be the case because just using different water helped him heal. Parasites that use snails are mostly parasites that need a different animal in a higher class than snails to complete their life cycle so snail to snail infection is unlikely or extremely, extremely rare. The parasites use the snails as a conveyance to get to the other animal that eats snails in order to complete their life cycle.

The hitchhikers appear to be bladder snails—small, but at least snack-sized for the smaller assassins i retained (i traded w/medium-med-large-sized ones).

The ram’s horn population in a 2.5gal tank r mostly at the chia-seed stage size-wise, which is why the assassins currently subsist on bloodworms.

In any case, Andy, u’ve steered me thru multiple crises so i’m inclined to follow your instructions to the letter. If u think dosing these new plants’ container w/prazi-mat would be futile, then i’ll opt for letting them standalone for a month. If u think the medication route is not the most egregious approach u’ve heard, please advise.

Don't waste the medicine on snails.

In the meantime, i checked out one of the ‘tissue-cultured’ plant merchants u mentioned. They won’t be shipping until mid-January (vacay, i assume); they’ve got an impressive selection—will definitely order from them in the future!

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy—please be assured that u did not waste words or precious time teaching me about the taxi svce snails provide to certain ‘big game’ hunting parasites!!! I got it “”! (The plants r the snails’ ‘ride’, & the snails r the parasites’ ride to the ‘promised land’, in the form of some hapless fish)

My concern was that the 3 female bettas sharing the 10gal w/the remaining assassins might be viewed as ‘the promised land’ by the potential parasites.

Even if we’ve eliminated parasites as the culprit that bludgeoned Egg, potential encroachment from a parasite exists for any fish sharing real estate w/unvetted snails, right?

The more i learn the more i’m reminded how much more there is to learn & how little i know. I do enjoy being a student

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy—please be assured that u did not waste words or precious time teaching me about the taxi svce snails provide to certain ‘big game’ hunting parasites!!! I got it “”! (The plants r the snails’ ‘ride’, & the snails r the parasites’ ride to the ‘promised land’, in the form of some hapless fish)

My concern was that the 3 female bettas sharing the 10gal w/the remaining assassins might be viewed as ‘the promised land’ by the potential parasites.

Even if we’ve eliminated parasites as the culprit that bludgeoned Egg, potential encroachment from a parasite exists for any fish sharing real estate w/unvetted snails, right?

The more i learn the more i’m reminded how much more there is to learn & how little i know. I do enjoy being a student

Snail to snail transmission is what you were concerned about. As I explained, not only is it rare but not the usual. Assassin snails will not get the parasites from ingestion of advanced worms. They get it by ingesting the worm eggs or larvae. Those eggs or larvae then grow inside the snail causing the snail to be "abnormal" which makes them easier prey for birds or fish to consume. The most common parasites for snails are bird parasites so they need a bird to consume the snail to complete the worm's lifecycle. The snail finds the eggs or larvae external from the body. If a fish eats the infected snail, a bird still needs to eat the fish in order for the worm to complete it's lifecycle. If you are concerned about the fish catching something from the snails, don't put the snails in the fish tank. It's really that simple. If necessary, put the snail infested plant into a separate tank and put the assassin snails into that tank. When they are done feeding on the pest snails, put them back in with the fish. Don't make this more complicated than that. You are talking about something the likes of getting hit by a lightning bolt a 3rd time. It's just that rare.
Yes, there is a lot to learn, so much of it is not in typical fish keeping books either. I went to school to become a Veterinarian so I was looking at much more complex books than the typical TFH books. ( There was no "online" info back then. ) If you want to learn more about your question, look up " zombie snails".

 

[EGGBERT]

If you are concerned about the fish catching something from the snails, don't put the snails in the fish tank. It's really that simple. If necessary, put the snail infested plant into a separate tank and put the assassin snails into that tank. When they are done feeding on the pest snails, put them back in with the fish.

Rock/hard place: YES, my concern IS the possibility of the 3 BETTAS contracting something from the snails.

I don’t have the means or space to isolate the assassins w/the plants to enable them to chow-down on the bladder snails, altho i’m not opposed to the idea in principle!!!

At the moment, my impulse is to toss the plants altogether—it’s just not worth risking the health of any fish—‘better safe than sorry’, & i’ve already made enough mistakes during my ongoing enlightenment process. Frankly, i could kick myself

Wondering if u agree w/Aiken that Seachem’s Stability is, in essence, a scam. I use both Stability AND Prime to condition water. The manager of one of the aquarium specialists i frequently deal with relies on Stability & apparently considers it a viable product; he, like u & Aiken, is a highly experienced aquarist
whose life/time is dedicated to the practice, but i can’t be dismissive of Aiken’s opinion.

Methinks i’ll acquire a different product, but—as if Canada is a third world or otherwise forbidden territory, certain products that imho should be uniformly available in N America, AREN’T, as u know

TBC

 

[Andy Sager]

Rock/hard place: YES, my concern IS the possibility of the 3 BETTAS contracting something from the snails.

I don’t have the means or space to isolate the assassins w/the plants to enable them to chow-down on the bladder snails, altho i’m not opposed to the idea in principle!!!

You wrote in post #1 that you isolated some snails in a 2 1/2 gallon tank. Why can't you use that tank? Toss the plants, an assassin or two into this tank and watch the buffet get eaten.

At the moment, my impulse is to toss the plants altogether

When it comes to fish keeping, you have to control your impulses.

—it’s just not worth risking the health of any fish—‘better safe than sorry’,

That's one method and I usually subscribe to that. It's also why with today's fish, fish stores and breeding practices by many farms, quarantining is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo important.

& i’ve already made enough mistakes during my ongoing enlightenment process. Frankly, i could kick myself

If you do, don't kick too hard. You actually learn more from mistakes than successes. It's also faster to learn from other's mistakes vs making them yourself.

Wondering if u agree w/Aiken that Seachem’s Stability is, in essence, a scam. I use both Stability AND Prime to condition water. The manager of one of the aquarium specialists i frequently deal with relies on Stability & apparently considers it a viable product; he, like u & Aiken, is a highly experienced aquarist
whose life/time is dedicated to the practice, but i can’t be dismissive of Aiken’s opinion.

Aiken posted about a study done that showed that of the numerous "bacteria in a bottle" products they tested, only 3 were actually shown to work. Fritzyme, Fritz Turbo and Tetra brand SafeStart. One can only assume that Dr Tim's one and only would also be included as supposedly, Dr Tim created the product that became Tetra's SafeStart. I don't know if Stability was tested but maybe Aiken can post what brands were tested or a link to the study he referenced. In concept, once a biological filter has been established, it rarely needs an additional boost. Doing a water change is not going to effect the biological filter so adding more microbes is nonsensical to me. If you did a huge cleaning of the filter and substrate during that water change, then it makes sense to add back microbes HOWEVER, you should never have to do a huge cleaning in a good system so I'd save my money.

Methinks i’ll acquire a different product, but—as if Canada is a third world or otherwise forbidden territory, certain products that imho should be uniformly available in N America, AREN’T, as u know

Don't be in a rush to get something. Study the info first.

TBC

 

[EGGBERT]

OK, i’ll explain why i’m reluctant to add the bladders to the 2.5gal…

The first 2 pix below r of some spongey filtration material i affixed to the lattice-like filtration tube extending from the filtration unit. I DIY’d that because i didn’t have appropriately sized sponges for that purpose & i’d decided to setup an experimental environment for potential hatchlings—specifically, frog or hillstream.
The water parameters in the 2.5gal r nearly identical to the 20gal where the Af dwarf frogs & the hillstreams have been having at it. I’d mentioned to u that i was inspired by that article u shared wherein someone was discussing their attempts to incubate frog eggs.
Consider here the outcome i described w/the reproductive efforts in the 20gal (eaten or unviable [remember the brood box i added to the tank]).
Figuring i had nothing to lose & possibly something to gain, i used a dropper to transfer a plethora of eggs to the 2.5gal, figuring it would offer greater ‘safety’ & stability.

Outcome:
Several eggs hatched—not certain which species (& remember this is a ‘let’s see what, if anything happens’ experiment).

The critters either shortly deceased or r in hiding (there’s a stellar retreat in a plant-filled object [pic 3]).

Right now there’s at least ONE visible creature that seems to have some stamina (all things being relative). The only other occupants r baby ram’s horns & a few tiny assassins.

I’m fascinated by this mini miracle. I’ve squirted in some daphnia (the pkge says suitable for fry, & they literally look like ‘dust’).

So what’s your opinion of this?

 

[EGGBERT]

Pix didn’t post previously

 

[EGGBERT]

Fyi… From loaches.com website—first image: what my singlet appears to be… (click pic to view 1st image)

 

[Andy Sager]

Fyi… From loaches.com website—first image: what my singlet appears to be… (click pic to view 1st image)

If it's not a tadpole ( big head, fleshy tail), it's a loach fry, no question.
You didn't mention that this tank was in use for eggs too, just snails. So scratch the other idea. Get a bucket, an air stone, put the plant(s) and some assassins in the bucket. Problem solved, money saved.

 

[EGGBERT]

Good idea Andy (bucket)
Just an airstone? I have extra filters—suitable for small aquariums…

Re FRY… Is it possible that any might be hunkering down in that planted object? The fry that entered this world via the 10gal had me fooled for weeks!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Good idea Andy (bucket)
Just an airstone? I have extra filters—suitable for small aquariums…

Dealer's choice. Hopefully the snails are hungry enough that they shouldn't be in the bucket for long anyway.

Re FRY… Is it possible that any might be hunkering down in that planted object? The fry that entered this world via the 10gal had me fooled for weeks!!!

Fish fry are cleaver. They know that hiding is the best survival method. I wouldn't change anything other than water until you see the first fry large enough to move into the bigger tank.
When I bred Danios, even after the fry had absorbed their yolk sacs, they were still so small and clear that I couldn't see them without a magnifying glass and they were literally hanging on the sides of the tanks fully exposed.

 

[EGGBERT]

Looking forward to setting up that bucket!!!

I saw a 2nd fry in the 2.5gal!!! Whatever the outcome, the process is fascinating (& of course, a trifle nerve wracking—from the life/death perspective)—& i’m glad i isolated those eggs!!!

Further re PLANTS, algae growth, & nitrates…
I’d mentioned that the water parameters in Egg’s 5gal were steady—ammonia, nitrite, AND nitrate, consistently ‘0’.

The ‘0’ nitrate never made sense to me, but that status was concomitant w/the cyanobacteria bloom. I tested the 5gal parameters today: amm, nitrite: 0—NITRATE: 10ppm, which makes a helluva lot more sense than ‘0’. Deduction: the cyano was thriving on the nitrates…? (The pH is neutral—& Egg’s a happy camper).

Will keep u posted re new fry