Q re cycling new 10gal tank

[EGGBERT]

Greetings all—w/a shoutout to AIKEN who’s helped me tremendously, & much of whose advice i’ve incorporated into my routine. Huge Thanks, Aiken

So, i have a 5gal that currently houses a hillstream loach, a mystery snail, & a horned snail. Crushingly, i lost my beloved betta; i have a few theories as to COD—regardless, his transition was the push i needed to setup a 10gallon.

My hope/plan—following successful cycling—is to move the hillstream & the mystery snail to the 10gal, & perhaps get another hillstream to keep the current one (Pancake) company—i’d then adopt another betta to be the primary occupant of the 5gal (perhaps w/a couple more horned snails, which full size r tiny—or another small bottom feeding fish—a different type of loach? & any recommendations on this front would be greatly welcomed!).

Re the 10gal, it’s got a hanging cartridge filter, a heater, aeration, a lid w/lighting, live plants (including a few plantlets from the other tank).

I added 3 components to the filter: 1 heavily used filter cartridge from the 5gal, a slab of sponge (Fluval bio-foam), & a pouch of Seachem’s Matrix nuggets.

My hope is that the friendly bacteria on the used cartridge & the plant life from the 5gal will contribute to at least a slight acceleration of the process.

The substrate consists of gravel & some sizeable (~1” diameter) smooth stones (prepared/intended for aquarium use).

I added a bottom feeder food tablet to generate ammonia content.

The process was initiated yesterday; I filled the tank w/tap water treated w/Seachem’s Stability & Prime.

Tested the pH today—it’s above neutral, but i’m wondering if i should raise it, as in another cycling-related thread someone said something about 7.8 pH being optimal for encouraging the cycle; is this true? I could readily raise it/maintain it w/Seachem’s alkaline buffer.

Should the water chemistry be tested every day? Every few days? & what about water changes during this process (frequency, amount)?

Re water hardness:
KH is betw. 100-200 (this # because the instructions r to ‘count the # of drops until the solution turns yellow—but further along it says BRIGHT yellow’—a confusing distinction imo: i’m a visual artist who’s very attuned to HUE/PIGMENTATION).

Same confusion for me re the GH, which i interpret as betw. 0-100 because, again, the instructions say ‘count the drops until the water changes from orange to green’, but it doesn’t say whether it’s barely changed to a faint pastel green or if it should be more intense. If anyone can offer a heads-up on this point i’d be HUGELY appreciative!!!!

Did i exclude any key points that might help u guys better help me? Please advise, & HUGE THANKS to one & all…

 

[Aiken Drum]

I would say fish food isn't the best ammonia source. It's difficult to judge how much food to add to introduce sufficient ammonia to cycle the tank. Ghost feeding you would need to add the same amount of food everyday as you would feed a tankful of fish. Once you can do this and see zero ammonia and nitrite in your test you are cycled.

Cycling can take months, so that's potentially a lot of food going into the aquariu that is going to decompose and go moldy.

An algae wafer left in the tank is going to be cleaner, but will take longer to decompose. Dropping half a cocktail shrimp in a filter media bag into the water and replacing every couple of days might be better than fish food. I think the shrimp method was 1 shrimp per 20 gallons, but I've never done that.

Ammonia is much more precise, and doesn't cause that decomposing issues.

As for raising pH, yes pH in the higher 7s is more optimum, as is temperature in the higher 20s. I personally wouldn't muck about with pH during cycling as microbes that suit the higher pH might not suit the lower pH your aquarium ends up at. Personal opinion, but give your plan a go if you prefer and let us know how it goes.

I would test the water as often as you can. Daily is good, but no harm if you skip a few days. No fish are at risk of poor water quality during a fishless cycle. Change water to keep parameters readable. You don't want ammonia elevating above 4ppm as too high ammonia can kill off the microbes you are trying to grow, you don't want nitrite going above your test kits ability to test.

 

[EGGBERT]

I would say fish food isn't the best ammonia source. It's difficult to judge how much food to add to introduce sufficient ammonia to cycle the tank. Ghost feeding you would need to add the same amount of food everyday as you would feed a tankful of fish. Once you can do this and see zero ammonia and nitrite in your test you are cycled.

Cycling can take months, so that's potentially a lot of food going into the aquariu that is going to decompose and go moldy.

An algae wafer left in the tank is going to be cleaner, but will take longer to decompose. Dropping half a cocktail shrimp in a filter media bag into the water and replacing every couple of days might be better than fish food. I think the shrimp method was 1 shrimp per 20 gallons, but I've never done that.

Ammonia is much more precise, and doesn't cause that decomposing issues.

As for raising pH, yes pH in the higher 7s is more optimum, as is temperature in the higher 20s. I personally wouldn't muck about with pH during cycling as microbes that suit the higher pH might not suit the lower pH your aquarium ends up at. Personal opinion, but give your plan a go if you prefer and let us know how it goes.

I would test the water as often as you can. Daily is good, but no harm if you skip a few days. No fish are at risk of poor water quality during a fishless cycle. Change water to keep parameters readable. You don't want ammonia elevating above 4ppm as too high ammonia can kill off the microbes you are trying to grow, you don't want nitrite going above your test kits ability to test.

Hi Aiken—Thanks for the input!
It’s day 3—just tested water parameters—they haven’t budged: ammonia/0, nitrite/0, pH/above neutral… (Waiting a few days to retest nitrate—tested yesterday—as expected, ‘0’).
Per the advice of a local aquarium professional, i’ve been dosing the tank w/Seachem ‘Stability’ to nudge the cycling process along. The bottom feeder tablet is mouldering away, but as u stated, there’s no predictable timeline re ammonia production.

Re adding pure ammonia, can i use the standard general store acquired product or do i need to get some specialized aquarium-use product? I’m inclined to do anything reasonable to pump-up the process, but i’m psychologically poised for a wait of months! So how much would i add to a 10gallon?

I have the temp set to ~26C, but i can raise it—should i? And re water changes, when is the best time to do that? I don’t understand the point of water changes until there’s some dramatic activity (ie, dramatic shift in parameters). Am i wrong? If yes, please set me straight!

Thanks again!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Am investigating adding ammonia—needless to say, there’s a wealth of info; here’s what i’m about to read:

How to Cycle Aquarium with Ammonia: The Ultimate Guide for Beginners

Cycling your aquarium can seem like a daunting task, but it's absolutely essential for the health and wellbeing of your fish and other aquatic creatures. One

aquariumslab.com

 

[EGGBERT]

PS: watching a cycling-related video right now, & the narrator is suggesting that adding media from a cycled tank can lead to greatly accelerated cycling. Do u agree? I did place a 2mo old cartridge from my fully cycled 5gal into the new 10gal’s filtration unit, plus there’s the plant life i added, also from the 5gal.
Surely this will make ‘some’ difference?

 

[Robbo80]

PS: watching a cycling-related video right now, & the narrator is suggesting that adding media from a cycled tank can lead to greatly accelerated cycling. Do u agree? I did place a 2mo old cartridge from my fully cycled 5gal into the new 10gal’s filtration unit, plus there’s the plant life i added, also from the 5gal.
Surely this will make ‘some’ difference?

Adding old filter media would certainly help with beneficial bacteria. I'm no expert but it would have had to have been in use from a cycled tank relatively recently.

 

[Aiken Drum]

When it comes to these bacteria in a bottle products there are some that work in the right circumstances and some that don't work at all. Stability is one of the ones that don't do anything IMO. I recently found a peer reviewed, published, scientific study that tested various of these products and the only ones that where found to have any benefit where the various Fritz products and Tetra Safestart. Dr Tims One and Only is essentially the same product as Safestart as they where both developed by Dr Tim Hovanec. This generally confirms the general consensus of opinion on these products of what hobbyists actually find to work. Outside of those mentioned products i wouldn't waste your money. Since you already have a bottle of Stability, may as well use it. It won't hurt anything.

You have to remember that the hobby is littered with social media accounts pushing endorsements for cash and seachem is very good at marketing. Guy in the fish store is also making money from selling these products too. If the store made more money from recommending Fluval Cycle instead of Stability they would be pushing that. You went into the store looking to buy something and they sold you something. The guy in the store did his job.

Using media from a cycled filter will do more to help you cycle a new aquarium than anything else you might try. That filter cartridge will be full of those microbes responsible for the nitrogen cycle and from that old cartridge those microbes can grow and occupy the rest of your filtration media. But they also need an ammonia source. If those microbes aren't fed ammonia they will just die. Either get some fish in the aquarium (fish in cycle) or a ready supply of ammonia (fishless cycle).

Personally get an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product like Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride. There is zero chance it contains anything that might contaminate your aquarium. It might be a little more expensive than ammonia, but we are talking pennies. A bottle of Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride is under £10, and will be enough to cycle a few aquariums.

Yes, you can use pure ammonia. The most readily available ammonia will be bleach. You need neat bleach, no additives, surfacants, perfumes, etc. Just dilute ammonia. The really cheap stuff, janitor grade bleach. You need to look at the concentration to calculate the dosage. Household bleach is usually in the 5 to 10% concentration, and commercial grade bleach can be up to 25% concentration.

As for the link regarding cycling, i don't like their process. They are only allowing for a single dose of ammonia, and saying that once that's cycled out, you are cycled. You need to be able to cycle out 2ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, and that will take several doses of ammonia over what could take months. Their process is to cycle out 4 to 5ppm of ammonia in however long it takes, which would give you a start, but not enough to be considered cycled.

This is my process for a fishless cycle using ammonia.

Fishless Cycle Guide using Ammonia

STAGE 1 – SET UP AND PREPARATION. Set up the aquarium, stand, filtration, lighting, heater if required and any other equipment. Fill the tank and run for 24 hours to ensure there are no leaks and that all the equipment functions correctly. Drain the tank. Aquascape including substrate...

www.aquariumadvice.com

 

[EGGBERT]

Adding old filter media would certainly help with beneficial bacteria. I'm no expert but it would have had to have been in use from a cycled tank relatively recently.

Greetings Robbo80… Your opinion is appreciated! The transplanted filter cartridge in question has been in use for at least 2mos—taken from my other tank, a fully cycled 5gal. Per Aiken’s advice, i just ordered a bottle of Dr Tim’s Ammonium Chloride, which i’ll hopefully receive tomorrow. Will continue to post progress!

 

[EGGBERT]

When it comes to these bacteria in a bottle products there are some that work in the right circumstances and some that don't work at all. Stability is one of the ones that don't do anything IMO. I recently found a peer reviewed, published, scientific study that tested various of these products and the only ones that where found to have any benefit where the various Fritz products and Tetra Safestart. Dr Tims One and Only is essentially the same product as Safestart as they where both developed by Dr Tim Hovanec. This generally confirms the general consensus of opinion on these products of what hobbyists actually find to work. Outside of those mentioned products i wouldn't waste your money. Since you already have a bottle of Stability, may as well use it. It won't hurt anything.

You have to remember that the hobby is littered with social media accounts pushing endorsements for cash and seachem is very good at marketing. Guy in the fish store is also making money from selling these products too. If the store made more money from recommending Fluval Cycle instead of Stability they would be pushing that. You went into the store looking to buy something and they sold you something. The guy in the store did his job.

Using media from a cycled filter will do more to help you cycle a new aquarium than anything else you might try. That filter cartridge will be full of those microbes responsible for the nitrogen cycle and from that old cartridge those microbes can grow and occupy the rest of your filtration media. But they also need an ammonia source. If those microbes aren't fed ammonia they will just die. Either get some fish in the aquarium (fish in cycle) or a ready supply of ammonia (fishless cycle).

Personally get an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product like Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride. There is zero chance it contains anything that might contaminate your aquarium. It might be a little more expensive than ammonia, but we are talking pennies. A bottle of Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride is under £10, and will be enough to cycle a few aquariums.

Yes, you can use pure ammonia. The most readily available ammonia will be bleach. You need neat bleach, no additives, surfacants, perfumes, etc. Just dilute ammonia. The really cheap stuff, janitor grade bleach. You need to look at the concentration to calculate the dosage. Household bleach is usually in the 5 to 10% concentration, and commercial grade bleach can be up to 25% concentration.

As for the link regarding cycling, i don't like their process. They are only allowing for a single dose of ammonia, and saying that once that's cycled out, you are cycled. You need to be able to cycle out 2ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, and that will take several doses of ammonia over what could take months. Their process is to cycle out 4 to 5ppm of ammonia in however long it takes, which would give you a start, but not enough to be considered cycled.

This is my process for a fishless cycle using ammonia.

Fishless Cycle Guide using Ammonia

STAGE 1 – SET UP AND PREPARATION. Set up the aquarium, stand, filtration, lighting, heater if required and any other equipment. Fill the tank and run for 24 hours to ensure there are no leaks and that all the equipment functions correctly. Drain the tank. Aquascape including substrate...

www.aquariumadvice.com

Sheesh, Aiken—methinks that at some point a retailer took ye for a ride! The guy wasn’t pitching Stability—i already had a supply that i chose based on a calculated risk, plus he uses the stuff! But this is beside the point (Cycling), & your outline of the process is BRILLIANT—especially w/that handy, dandy ‘summation card’—TERRIFIC!!!

So, took your advice re Dr Tim’s—wasn’t familiar w/his product line, but anything You recommend is worth investigating, which reminds me: how would u rate Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ friendly bacteria source? I would hope it’s efficacy equates w/its $price, which is significant, imho!!!

 

[Aiken Drum]

I'm not really positive on any of the bacteria in a bottle products. I've used one and only and it's difficult to say if it had any positive effects. It might have sped things up a bit, the tank may have cycled at the same rate without it. It certainly didn't cycle to the timescales stated on the instructions, but may have reduced cycling time from months to weeks. It is generally considered one of the better bacteria in a bottle products.

Tetra safestart was the first of these products to hit the market. Dr Tim Hovanec worked for tetra at the time, developed that product, and then left to do his own product that is One and Only. So they are pretty much the same. That study I mentioned (and linked in one of your other threads) cited only the various Fritz bacteria in a bottle products and to a lesser extent Tetra Safestart as being the only products they tested that showed any benefit. They specifically cited stabilty as being no more beneficial than adding nothing at all.

@Andy Sager is a big supporter of fritz products and has had success using their bacteria in a bottle products, so that's first hand experience of those products that I don't have. But they will still only speed things up, not do the job on its own. You still need to go through some kind of cycling process.

But as said, the old filter cartridge will be doing far more than any product. Even if you add a bacteria in a bottle products with your ammonia and get amazing results, it's far more likely to be the filter cartridge than any bottled product.

Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride is just dilute ammonium chloride in a bottle, the same as any other ammonium chloride in a bottle. It is a safe ammonia source for aquariums with clear easy instructions on how much to add to raise ammonia the desired amount. Fritz also do an ammonium chloride product, but i think its in powder form.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey all… w/special shoutout to Aiken! But he likely won’t checkin for several hours, so if ANY of u guys can give me some feedback on what i share here, i’d be super grateful!

So here’s my update on the cycling process (10gal, freshwater):

It’s only been 10days, but the steps i’ve taken to accelerate the process appear to be working brilliantly. Here r the current readings (i’ll follow w/details on steps taken):

- pH ~7.6
- ammonia, 0
- nitrite, .5ppm
- nitrate, 20ppm
- temp, 82F

Yesterday i received a bottle of Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’; instructions on the bottle recommended using the entire qty (!!!) OR a recommended minimum of 2 capfuls/10gals (& also, per label instructions, u ‘can’t overdose’), so i put in about 1oz.

On perhaps the 4th day i added Dr Tim’s ammonium chloride; 4drops/gal is recommended, BUT, that qty is reduced a bit for substrate/misc objects, so i put in 32drops.

At its highest, the ammonia content was 4ppm; over the next couple of days, the amm. dropped to betw .25 & .5ppm (before the ‘one & only’).

Prior to receiving the ‘one & only’, i was adding 1/2-1 capful of Seachem’s Stability (i know a lotta folks doubt the efficacy of this product. Conversely, some folks swear by it; in any case, i knew it couldn’t hurt, so i used it until i got the ‘one & only’.)

Note: remember, at startup i’d added a used (at least 2mos) filter cartridge & several plants from a fully cycled aquarium, which at least ‘contributed’ to accelerating the process.

If anyone has any input/advice/Qs, please step up!!! & THANKS

 

[Andy Sager]

The fact that you are still showing a nitrite reading makes your nitrate reading unreliable. In some test kits ( i.e. API's liquid tests), you get a nitrate reading from the presence of nitrite. I wouldn't bother testing nitrate until your nitrite reading is 0.
As for raising the ammonia to 4 ppm, if you make the ammonia level too high, it can cause die off to the microbes. Stick to the 2 ppm standard which will develop more than enough microbes for a bioload capable of being in a 10 gallon tank.

 

[EGGBERT]

The fact that you are still showing a nitrite reading makes your nitrate reading unreliable. In some test kits ( i.e. API's liquid tests), you get a nitrate reading from the presence of nitrite. I wouldn't bother testing nitrate until your nitrite reading is 0.
As for raising the ammonia to 4 ppm, if you make the ammonia level too high, it can cause die off to the microbes. Stick to the 2 ppm standard which will develop more than enough microbes for a bioload capable of being in a 10 gallon tank.

Hi Andy… Thanks for the input… The ammonia is currently ‘0’—it started at 4ppm (right after i added the ammonium chloride) & had been dropping—today, to ‘0’—which i thought might be directly associated w/the use of Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ live bacteria.

I reviewed chart illustrating the cycling process. Beneficial bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite (which appeared yesterday & increased today; i thought this was a key objective, & therefore a good thing!!!)—& bacteria converts nitrite to nitrate (which appeared today—also an objective, no?), so i’m very confused now & am not sure how to proceed from here

It’s only day 10!

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy… Thanks for the input… The ammonia is currently ‘0’—it started at 4ppm (right after i added the ammonium chloride) & had been dropping—today, to ‘0’—which i thought might be directly associated w/the use of Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ live bacteria.

I reviewed chart illustrating the cycling process. Beneficial bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite (which appeared yesterday & increased today; i thought this was a key objective, & therefore a good thing!!!)—& bacteria converts nitrite to nitrate (which appeared today—also an objective, no?), so i’m very confused now & am not sure how to proceed from here

It’s only day 10!

Here's the deal, in a natural system, a microbe we will call Nitrifying microbe 1, forms and converts the ammonia present to nitrites. In time, a second microbe we will call nitrifying microbe 2, forms and converts that nitrite into nitrate. (That's the whole cycling process in a nutshell. ) That combination ( a.k.a. Biological filter bed) grows and shrinks based on the amount of ammonia present at any time. Fast forward to the time of "bacteria in a bottle" products and all they do is introduce some nitrifying microbes 1 & 2 into the tank or system. They then need to multiply to a level where there are enough microbes 1 & 2 to consume and convert all the ammonia present into nitrate. Under ideal conditions, nitrifying microbe colonies can double in size in under 24 hours. So if you started with 6 of each microbes, within 24hours there should be 12 of each microbes. In 24 more hours, 24 of each microbes and so on. That number will keep growing UNTIL, there is no more ammonia that needs to be converted. We don't know how many microbes you actually introduced so we use test kits. These are not scientifically accurate to the Nth degree but they are close enough for what we are using them for. Now, you take the average amount of ammonia that fish produce in a 24 hour period and it averages out to about 1-2ppm. So the biological filter bed will need to grow large enough to convert that amount of ammonia to eventually nitrates. The biological filter bed is a living breathing colony that grows and shrinks so if you make the biological bed large enough to convert 4 ppm of ammonia but you only add enough fish or life forms that produce 2 ppm of ammonia, 1/2 of the bed you created will die off from starvation. Since you are working with a very small tank, you will be working with rather small fish so they are not going to produce massive amounts of ammonia so there is no need for a biological bed that can convert 4 ppm of ammonia.
Now that you know all that, this is what the goal is: You want to add up to 2 ppm of ammonia to the tank. You want to then test the tank after 24 hours. IF the ammonia level is 0 and the nitrite level is 0, test for nitrates. If you have a nitrate level, it means that your tank is cycled for 2 ( or whatever level of ammonia you added) ppm of ammonia production. ( Unfortunately, as I explained, some test kits do not recognize the difference between nitrite and nitrate so there is no need to test nitrate when there are nitrites present. ) IF there is still ammonia or nitrites, your tank is not fully cycled and you need to wait before adding any livestock to it. Once the ammonia or nitrite returns to 0, you repeat the process again with the same amount of ammonia you used before. WHEN the ammonia and nitrites are 0 within 24 hours, no matter how many days it takes, and you have a rising nitrate level, THEN you are cycled and need to add your livestock so you can stop adding the ammonia. That is how you should proceed.

Hope this helps.

 

[EGGBERT]

Greetings Andy… Thank you for further sharing your knowledge/expertise of this process. I do comprehend the cycling phenomenon, but your explication is brilliant & much appreciated.

Howeve, your perspective seems associated w/the ‘fish-in’ approach to cycling (was that your intention?) & my new 10gallon is fish-free.

Having learned the hard way & incurring some losses (i had to conduct an emergency fish-in process w/my 5gallon) i’m intent on avoiding more of the same.

The details u provided r a stellar reference, but, based on the progression of the 10gal’s chemistry, i’m not entirely convinced that i need to do much more than allow it to cycle ‘naturally’—ie, at this point provide minimal additional assistance.

Here’s the basis of my continued confusion. First off, we all know that there r myriad variables/inconsistencies in the cycling process—it can take weeks or months, & i’m guessing rarely but not unheard of, the process can be abbreviated.

I’ve done a few things to accelerate it—(added bacteria-saturated, used filtration media from a cycled aquarium—added bacteria-coated plants from a cycled aquarium —added ammonium chloride & kick-starting bacterial medium [Dr T’s one & only]—fixed high temp & high pH)—& unless i’m totally mad/perhaps a tad cretinous (), empirically-speaking, the process appears to be markedly moving along. I need more opinions on this—which is not to say your position/recommendations won’t turn out to be the ones i ultimately follow to the letter!!!

Here r the measurements between yesterday & today:

- ammonia: yesterday 0, today 0
- nitrite: yesterday .5ppm, today betw 0 & .25

Given this continued downward trend, i checked the nitrate level (no disrespect! Curiosity led the charge here!!!):

- nitrate: yesterday .20ppm, today closer to .10ppm

Surely these r signs of successful cycling? If not, i’m gobsmacked Unless this sounds like a failure, i don’t get the need to add more ammonia, which is not to say i won’t, but i’m not convinced it’s necessary. Then again, i’m a rookie, so please try not to be too irritated w/me!!!

In any case, i sure could use advice on water changing at this stage.

Fyi, i’ve attached a pic of the 10gal.

 

[Andy Sager]

Greetings Andy… Thank you for further sharing your knowledge/expertise of this process. I do comprehend the cycling phenomenon, but your explication is brilliant & much appreciated.

Howeve, your perspective seems associated w/the ‘fish-in’ approach to cycling (was that your intention?) & my new 10gallon is fish-free.

Having learned the hard way & incurring some losses (i had to conduct an emergency fish-in process w/my 5gallon) i’m intent on avoiding more of the same.

The details u provided r a stellar reference, but, based on the progression of the 10gal’s chemistry, i’m not entirely convinced that i need to do much more than allow it to cycle ‘naturally’—ie, at this point provide minimal additional assistance.

Here’s the basis of my continued confusion. First off, we all know that there r myriad variables/inconsistencies in the cycling process—it can take weeks or months, & i’m guessing rarely but not unheard of, the process can be abbreviated.

I’ve done a few things to accelerate it—(added bacteria-saturated, used filtration media from a cycled aquarium—added bacteria-coated plants from a cycled aquarium —added ammonium chloride & kick-starting bacterial medium [Dr T’s one & only]—fixed high temp & high pH)—& unless i’m totally mad/perhaps a tad cretinous (), empirically-speaking, the process appears to be markedly moving along. I need more opinions on this—which is not to say your position/recommendations won’t turn out to be the ones i ultimately follow to the letter!!!

Here r the measurements between yesterday & today:

- ammonia: yesterday 0, today 0
- nitrite: yesterday .5ppm, today betw 0 & .25

Given this continued downward trend, i checked the nitrate level (no disrespect! Curiosity led the charge here!!!):

- nitrate: yesterday .20ppm, today closer to .10ppm

Surely these r signs of successful cycling? If not, i’m gobsmacked Unless this sounds like a failure, i don’t get the need to add more ammonia, which is not to say i won’t, but i’m not convinced it’s necessary. Then again, i’m a rookie, so please try not to be too irritated w/me!!!

LOL I don't get irritated easily so no worries. People like yourself don't always grasp the process at first because some of it makes no sense but you are creating a living system and that means things need to happen in order no matter how much you want to switch things around and do the easy stuff first. ( FYI, the easy stuff is last. )

In any case, i sure could use advice on water changing at this stage.

Fyi, i’ve attached a pic of the 10gal.

The end result is the same whether you are doing "fish in" or "fish less". If your tank can convert a specified amount of ammonia to 0 and nitrites to 0 in under 24 hours and have an increasing nitrate level at the same time, your tank is cycled. You actually proved my point on how unreliable doing a nitrate test during cycling is. Nitrates do not reduce on their own. There would need to be nitrate removing products, live nitrate consuming plants or water changes being done to be reducing. At the end of the day, a cycled tank, with livestock in it, will produce ammonia 24/7 365 so if you are not cycled, you are going to see your numbers going up and down and up and down and up and down and that is not good for the fish. A fully formed biological filter bed can keep the amount of ammonia being produced by the livestock to manageable levels to the point that the fish are not effected. But say you decided to add a bunch of new fish. If the amount of ammonia they produce is more than the biological bed can handle, you will see a rise in ammonia until the bed multiplies enough to handle the new extra ammonia present.

I used to teach a class for new hobbyists at one of the stores I worked out so maybe this will better help you understand what is happening: Say you started a tank of any size ( it doesn't matter the size because the exact same thing happens in every tank ) with one Guppy. When the tank fully cycles, it means there are enough nitrifying microbes to handle the ammonia production of one fish similar to a guppy's ammonia output. Say you started another tank with 100 Guppies. When the tank fully cycles, it means there are enough nitrifying microbes to handle the ammonia production of 100 fish similar to Guppies. Say you start a third tank with 5000 Neon Tetras ( I bet you thought I was gonna say Guppies. LOL ) when the tank fully cycles, there will be enough nitrifying microbes to handle the production of ammonia of 5000 fish similar to a neon Tetra. So here you are with 3 tanks that are fully cycled but you can't swap the fish in tank #3 into tank #1 or #2 without consequences. Why? Because there aren't enough microbes present in tanks #1 & #2 to handle the load from tank #3. Sure, you can put the one guppy into the tank that held 100 or 5000 fish without anything happening besides the biological bed dying off but you can't put the 100 or 5000 fish in the tank that cycled the 1 Guppy without having a massive ammonia level. Same with putting the 100 Guppies into the tank with the 5000 neons but you will have to remove 100 neons to keep the tank stable. The term " cycled" is a little misleading when you aren't following what " cycled" means. It means there are only enough microbes to handle the amount of ammonia present at the time. So in this example, you have 1 tank cycled for 1 guppy sized fish, 1 tank cycled for 100 Guppy sized fish and 1 tank cycled for 5000 neon tetra sized fish. They are not the same. It isn't a case where once you are cycled, you are cycled for everything that comes next. You then need to keep the biological filter bed going by feeding with fish or food ( ammonia) .

In terms of speeding things up, yes, adding things like "bacteria in a bottle" products or used filter cartridges does get the ball rolling faster because they contain nitrifying microbes but nitrifying microbes are found in a number of places on Earth. The soil, rocks, water, the water pipes to your house as well as sewage plants, just to name a few. Anywhere there is ammonia production, there are nitrifying microbes present. I can't tell you exactly how they get from where they are before you set up your tank to into your fish tank but the tests show that they somehow got there. ( That's the magic of fish keeping. ) What adding those products do is skip the magic part of how the microbes get into the tank. They don't change what " cycling" does in a tank.

As for doing water changes during cycling, if you are doing fishless cycling, IMO, there is no need to change water until the cycle is complete. You are only doing the water change then to reduce the nitrate level to as close to zero as you can get ( providing there are not live plants in the tank) so that you can add your new fish. The nitrifying microbes are not IN the water itself in quantity. They are attached to surfaces where there is the highest amount of oxygen so even doing a 100% water change should not affect the biological filter bed.

Hope this all helps.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy: this was super helpful, & your patience level is heroic!

Today’s (7 May) testing yielded the following:
- ammonia: 3rd day at 0
- nitrite: 1st day at 0
- nitrate: betw 5 & 10ppm

So, current set of Qs:

- can i lower the temp? Currently 82F (to facilitate process); would like to lower to 75F

- is it too soon to add a couple of snails &/or a hardy fish or two?

My objective is to—at the appropriate, ‘salubrious’ time (re conditions for the fish)—transfer the hillstream loach i have in my 5gal to the 10gal.

I’m hep to the mistake of ‘overstocking’, but would like to supply the hillstream (a female) w/another hillstream for company (she currently has 2 snails: 1 horned, 1 mystery) in the 5gal.

This may be anthropomorphizing, but i think she’d prefer another finned companion (based on my understanding of them being somewhat social & benefiting from being w/their own kind).
Any advice/opinions on this front?

The plants i transferred from the 5gal r algae coated, but i’m not sure the qty is adequate for the snails. The hillstream is nuts for those bottom feeder wafers, as is the mystery snail, but not so the teeny horned snail, who appears to strictly favor the algae.

So TIMING-wise, despite the zero readings for ammonia & nitrite, introducing fish will introduce ammonia, but will that cause the tank to REcycle or, spikes aside, does it sound like the process has been established & is good to go & will therefore self-resolve at this point?

Granted, i took steps to accelerate the process, & that ‘appears’ to have worked, BUT, it’s only been 11days…

What would u recommend?

TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy: this was super helpful, & your patience level is heroic!

I'm a very good fisherman as well so I have to have patience.

Today’s (7 May) testing yielded the following:
- ammonia: 3rd day at 0
- nitrite: 1st day at 0
- nitrate: betw 5 & 10ppm

I'd add the ammonia to a level of 2 ppm and see if it and the nitrites are gone within 24 hours and the nitrate level is higher. ( Better safe than sorry.) If it is, then you are cycled.

So, current set of Qs:

- can i lower the temp? Currently 82F (to facilitate process); would like to lower to 75F

Not yet

- is it too soon to add a couple of snails &/or a hardy fish or two?

Yes, too soon. Let the tank get some biofilm growing before adding clean up fish/snails.

My objective is to—at the appropriate, ‘salubrious’ time (re conditions for the fish)—transfer the hillstream loach i have in my 5gal to the 10gal.

I’m hep to the mistake of ‘overstocking’, but would like to supply the hillstream (a female) w/another hillstream for company (she currently has 2 snails: 1 horned, 1 mystery) in the 5gal
This may be anthropomorphizing, but i think she’d prefer another finned companion (based on my understanding of them being somewhat social & benefiting from being w/their own kind).
Any advice/opinions on this front?

It's my understanding that hillstream loaches do not do well in small groups. They either are singles or more than 3 but a 10 gallon tank is not large enough to house 3 or more of them. Like many other fish species, one will become the more dominant fish and bully the others. By only have one more, the less dominant one will get all the bullying which will lead to more problems. I suggest you stick to the one or set up a much larger and longer tank for them.

The plants i transferred from the 5gal r algae coated, but i’m not sure the qty is adequate for the snails. The hillstream is nuts for those bottom feeder wafers, as is the mystery snail, but not so the teeny horned snail, who appears to strictly favor the algae.

I wouldn't move the loach or the mystery snail yet but if the ammonia test above works in 24 hours, I'd move the horned snail to deal with the plant algae OR do a peroxide dip to rid the plants of the algae by doing the following:

1. Mix 2-3ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide in 1 gallon of water.
2. Dip your plant in the hydrogen peroxide plant dip solution for no longer than 5 minutes.
3. Using gloves, remove the plant from the solution and gently and thoroughly rinse your dipped plant in a neutralizing rinse solution prepared with a concentrated dechlorinator at 3x the recommended aquarium strength.
   ( Make sure you are using 3% peroxide, nothing stronger.)

So TIMING-wise, despite the zero readings for ammonia & nitrite, introducing fish will introduce ammonia, but will that cause the tank to REcycle or, spikes aside, does it sound like the process has been established & is good to go & will therefore self-resolve at this point?

Not necessarily. As I explained, the downside of doing the fishless cycle is that you don't know how large your biological filter bed is. With fish , you know because when it finishes, there are enough microbes to handle what is in the tank. By doing the 2 ppm, that is usually more than an average tank load of smaller fish produce so if your ammonia test above clears in 24 hours, it's unlikely you will add more fish than the bed can handle thereby no spikes. In the future, you should add fish or livestock in smaller quantities so that the bed can catch up faster.

Granted, i took steps to accelerate the process, & that ‘appears’ to have worked, BUT, it’s only been 11days…

The amount of days doesn't matter. I can cycle a tank in 24 hours by using established filter material and a very small amount of fish. Like I said in my previous post, " Cycled" just means for the amount of ammonia production.

What would u recommend?

Follow my instructions above. Like the sign says , " Speed kills". You are closer to the end than the beginning but if you lose patience now, you can screw up the whole thing. Another 24 hours to be sure won't hurt anything.

TY

 

[EGGBERT]

THANKS Andy. Will dose the tank w/ammonia today (8 May), & report results on the 9th.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… Here’s the skinny:
Today (9 May), nitrite & ammonia BOTH .25ppm—so close, but no cigar

So, Obi Wan, what’s my next move?

Since i’m in learning/experimentation mode, & no fishes’ lives r in the balance, i’d LIKE to add some Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ since it appears to work remarkably, BUT, will more than likely follow your lead, so please advise!

TY