Q re cycling new 10gal tank

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… Here’s the skinny:
Today (9 May), nitrite & ammonia BOTH .25ppm—so close, but no cigar

So, Obi Wan, what’s my next move?

Since i’m in learning/experimentation mode, & no fishes’ lives r in the balance, i’d LIKE to add some Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ since it appears to work remarkably, BUT, will more than likely follow your lead, so please advise!

TY

Something's not right. The Ammonia & Nitrite should not be at that level at the same time. Check out this graph: Notice where the ammonia level is when the nitrite level starts to go up? Notice where the ammonia level is when the nitrites are at .25 on the decline? This is why your readings don't gel. The good news is that your filter bed reduced the ammonia in 24 hours but not enough to be zero. So you are on your way. Bottom line, you either should get a second opinion on your test results from a local store or you need to put on your patience cap because the good news is that given enough time, the environment always straightens itself out.

 

[EGGBERT]

Glad to learn u don’t see this experiment as a total bust (at least partial decline of the ammonia).

At this point, i’m not averse to the Patience route, but wondering if u think there would be any harm in dosing w/bottled bacteria? And if i refrain from that practice (adding bacteria) what’s Your preferred/recommended tack?

TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Glad to learn u don’t see this experiment as a total bust (at least partial decline of the ammonia).

At this point, i’m not averse to the Patience route, but wondering if u think there would be any harm in dosing w/bottled bacteria? And if i refrain from that practice (adding bacteria) what’s Your preferred/recommended tack?

TY

I think you are close enough that it's not necessary HOWEVER, as I explained, your readings are not " normal" and that needs to be addressed before you keep adding more stuff into the water. Get a second opinion on the test results.

 

[EGGBERT]

OK. Perhaps another participant on this site can provide a second opinion? Any chance of u sharing these results w/someone here whose opinion u trust?

You say the readings r ‘not normal’, so based on your experience, what ‘should’ the readings be? Any clues as to the basis of the anomaly?

Perhaps i should immediately retest—might it be a glitch—eg, a poorly rinsed test tube (altho i’m pretty fanatic about that).

Please further advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

OK. Perhaps another participant on this site can provide a second opinion? Any chance of u sharing these results w/someone here whose opinion u trust?

You say the readings r ‘not normal’, so based on your experience, what ‘should’ the readings be? Any clues as to the basis of the anomaly?

Perhaps i should immediately retest—might it be a glitch—eg, a poorly rinsed test tube (altho i’m pretty fanatic about that).

Please further advise. TY

For as much as you've done, you should not have ammonia and nitrite readings that are the same, as you can see in the graph I posted. Maybe you are misreading them? Maybe your vials weren't clean? maybe your reagents aren't good? Too many possibilities you can't discount on your own. This is why you get a second opinion from an outside source. Your choices are to retest or have an outside source confirm your readings. What should the readings be? The readings are the readings. They are what they are. What you are waiting for is zero ammonia and zero nitrites and rising nitrates.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… I have an interesting update…

Firstly, re getting a ‘2nd opinion’—excellent recommendation—thing is, i’m isolated—the folks i interact w/on this topic (& various others) r online—so i mostly interface ‘virtually’ or via telephone, plus, i do plenty of reading/research.

I don’t currently trust the folk at my local pet emporium—recently had an extreme disagreement that was peppered w/disloyalty, & a bit of a back-stab/ghosting… Ergo, it’s online Yodas or a bus ride downtown (not ‘cake’ for me). So i’ve taken matters into my own hands!

As of today (11 May), nitrite & ammonia r back to zero. This result holds from testing yesterday—i’d re-added ~1oz of Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ on 9 May. Nitrates r 20ppm.

There’s been an unexpected development: teeny weeny, itty bitty snails (see pix. Do u know what species these r?).

& DON’T WORRY: i’m hep to the potential for a ‘population explosion—i read up on the matter following the discovery. My hunch is there were some eggs on recently purchased plants (vs the ones pulled from my 5gal).

I also removed what appeared to be egg masses (would rather neutralize eggs than fully realized creatures). So there r 4 of them (micro snails), & they’re doing a bang-up job of eating algae (which i didn’t want to eliminate specifically for any bottom feeders i might have introduced, but they saved me the trouble!!!).

So, betw. water testing & evaporation, the 10gal water level is minus ~1”; should i just replace (w/conditioned water) or is it time for a partial water change?

Should i continue to keep the tank warm (80F; heater set for 82F)?

Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… I have an interesting update…

Firstly, re getting a ‘2nd opinion’—excellent recommendation—thing is, i’m isolated—the folks i interact w/on this topic (& various others) r online—so i mostly interface ‘virtually’ or via telephone, plus, i do plenty of reading/research.

I don’t currently trust the folk at my local pet emporium—recently had an extreme disagreement that was peppered w/disloyalty, & a bit of a back-stab/ghosting… Ergo, it’s online Yodas or a bus ride downtown (not ‘cake’ for me). So i’ve taken matters into my own hands!

As of today (11 May), nitrite & ammonia r back to zero. This result holds from testing yesterday—i’d re-added ~1oz of Dr Tim’s ‘one & only’ on 9 May. Nitrates r 20ppm.

There’s been an unexpected development: teeny weeny, itty bitty snails (see pix. Do u know what species these r?).

& DON’T WORRY: i’m hep to the potential for a ‘population explosion—i read up on the matter following the discovery. My hunch is there were some eggs on recently purchased plants (vs the ones pulled from my 5gal).

I also removed what appeared to be egg masses (would rather neutralize eggs than fully realized creatures). So there r 4 of them (micro snails), & they’re doing a bang-up job of eating algae (which i didn’t want to eliminate specifically for any bottom feeders i might have introduced, but they saved me the trouble!!!).

So, betw. water testing & evaporation, the 10gal water level is minus ~1”; should i just replace (w/conditioned water) or is it time for a partial water change?

Should i continue to keep the tank warm (80F; heater set for 82F)?

Please advise. TY

Unfortunately, by adding the Dr Tims, there's no way of knowing if it was your biological filter bed that ate up that remaining ammonia & nitrite or it was the microbes in the Dr Tim's. You wanted to speed things up but you only created more questions than answers. The goal is for your BFD to establish. It's established when it can convert any amount of ammonia into eventually nitrates without any help in under 24 hours. You see that by getting a 0 reading for ammonia and nitrite in under 24 hours. It's a shame you don't have a reliable pet shop to double check your readings because that would have answered the question in under 5 minutes. From this point you have 2 choices, blindly adding your stock and hoping for the best or adding just ammonia again and testing in 24 hours. It's your choice.

As for the snail, I'm no snail expert, past adding garlic butter to them , but it looks like a bladder snail to me. If they are cleaning off your algae and biofilm, they are not going to be a good companion for your hillstream loaches because they will be competing for the same food. I'd choose one or the other.

As for doing a water change, if you are satisfied with the tank being supposedly cycled, do a 50% water change to reduce the nitrates to 10 ppm and acclimate your stock into the tank. If you are going to add ammonia again to see what it is tomorrow night, fill the tank to the level it should be THEN add the ammonia to a level of 1 or 2 ppm and also test the nitrate level so you have an accurate reading for the nitrate to compare tomorrow's reading to. (When the water evaporates, the chemicals in the water do not all evaporate with the H & the O so levels get elevated in test results.) You need an accurate starting number to compare new test results to. Letting so much water evaporate is not a good thing. In order to accurately do say, a 50% water change, you would need to fill the tank to make up the water that evaporated then drain more than 50% of the water because when you added the water for the evaporation, you added more minerals and other properties that come in your source water so you weren't back at 0 ( the place you started from before the evaporation) ) when you filled the tank back up. OR, without filling first, you would have to drain less than 50% and refill the tank to it's full level. It's really a combination of both a chemistry and and math problem. How much did adding new water to make up for evaporation change the levels OR how high did the levels go from the evaporation? Needless to say, you don't want to have too much water evaporating at any time.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… U r certainly teaching me a lot—THANK U again for that. I know my approach to this process hasn’t been perfect, but i’m confident it’ll continue to improve w/folks like u in the mix!

It’s 1:08p PT (12 May) as i write this. I’d replenished the missing water before i received your response. I’ve decided to go the ‘add ammonia’ route, again.

So my Q is (apologies: wasn’t certain of the answer here based on the info u supplied):

Do i do a 50% water change before or after i add the ammonium chloride?

TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… U r certainly teaching me a lot—THANK U again for that. I know my approach to this process hasn’t been perfect, but i’m confident it’ll continue to improve w/folks like u in the mix!

Nobody's perfect the first time around. My mentor used to tell me when I asked about doing things "odd", he would say " Try it and see what happens. " Most of the time, it was a disaster. My mentor was a certified Ichthyologist so he knew already what the outcome would be but it taught me a big lesson regarding being disappointed when new ideas didn't work. When I went into retail sales, my bosses would tell me to not encourage customers to spend money on things I knew would be a dead end or had a very small chance of working because it just makes them spend excess money and drives customers away in disappointment. So I make damn sure the people I advise have the greatest chances of success if they follow my advice.

It’s 1:08p PT (12 May) as i write this. I’d replenished the missing water before i received your response. I’ve decided to go the ‘add ammonia’ route, again.

So my Q is (apologies: wasn’t certain of the answer here based on the info u supplied):

Do i do a 50% water change before or after i add the ammonium chloride?

TY

Now that you filled the tank to the right level, 1) test your nitrates and write the number down for reference. 2) add the ammonia to 1 or 2 PPM . 3) don't change any water until after you get your 24 hour readings. IF the readings are 0 for ammonia and nitrite and there's a higher level of nitrates than before you added the new ammonia, THEN do at least a 50% water change to get the nitrate level to close to 10 ppm. After the water change, you should be able to add some stock to the tank. IF the nitrate reading is not higher or there is ammonia and/or nitrite still after the 24 hours, your tank IS NOT cycled. Test daily to see how long it takes to get to 0 and report back.

 

[EGGBERT]

Okie doke, Andy… Followed your instructions—nitrate was 20ppm; got ammonia up to 2ppm. Will report developments tomorrow night. THANKS for the expert tutelage

 

[Andy Sager]

Okie doke, Andy… Followed your instructions—nitrate was 20ppm; got ammonia up to 2ppm. Will report developments tomorrow night. THANKS for the expert tutelage

Consider yourself Tuteled.

 

[EGGBERT]

Consider yourself Tuteled.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy—here’s the skinny (& as per your experience/advice, said tank ain’t cycled):

- ammonia: 0
- nitrite: betw. .25-.50ppm
- nitrate: 30ppm
- pH 7.0

How should I proceed now?

TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy—here’s the skinny (& as per your experience/advice, said tank ain’t cycled):

- ammonia: 0
- nitrite: betw. .25-.50ppm
- nitrate: 30ppm
- pH 7.0

How should I proceed now?

TY

Your pH is too low. You need to raise it to the upper 7s- lower 8s. I'll bet cash money that that is why your nitrite didn't cycle all the way out. As you can see in the graph I posted earlier, there is going to be nitrate production before the nitrite zeros out. This is why you need all 3 things I mentioned ( ammonia AND Nitrite at zero and rising Nitrate) to be completely cycled. 1 or 2 of them alone does not cut it.
Just make sure your tap water isn't adding nitrates to the tank when you do water changes.
Keep in mind that the lower the pH goes, the slower the microbes work. Optimal pH is 7.4-8.2. I always opt for 7.8 pH. Make sure your temperature is 77-80 degrees as well. Colder water will also slow down nitrification.

What your readings are saying is that there are both nitrifying microbes present in the tank but the water is not the best for them to work and multiply at breakneck speed. This means when you get fully cycled under your current water parameters and keep them there, you would need to add any new life in very small quantities because the nitrite level will still be potentially unsafe still in 24 hours.

As for what you should do, make sure the pH and temps are adjusted as described then test the water tomorrow because you ain't completely cycled yet.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy! Wanted to get back to u w/updated results following the additional adjustments u’d recommended.

I’d added some alkalinizing crystals—got the pH back up to 7.6 (which was its reading prior to adding the amm-chloride). Temp has been holding steady at 80+F.
So, today the readings were:
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: ~30ppm

So what’s my next move? Water change?
Looking forward to your next input!!!!

Best,
A

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy! Wanted to get back to u w/updated results following the additional adjustments u’d recommended.

I’d added some alkalinizing crystals—got the pH back up to 7.6 (which was its reading prior to adding the amm-chloride). Temp has been holding steady at 80+F.
So, today the readings were:
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: ~30ppm

So what’s my next move? Water change?
Looking forward to your next input!!!!

Best,
A

Okay, I'd change 3/4 of the water which should get your nitrates under 10 ppm, adjust your heater to the temperature you want and then proceed to add small amounts of the stock you wanted to add. Keep in mind that with the colder water, nitrification will be slow and you can't rush it once there are fish in the tank. If ammonia or nitrite ( or a combination of both together) reach .25ppm, you will need to do water changes to bring it down. If you get into a habit of weekly water changes, that can have a big effect on keeping water parameters more stable.

 

[EGGBERT]

Again, THANK YOU for the continued guidance!

I have Qs about NITRATES, which might shift this convo to another section/category, under which i’ve previously shared concerns, but i’m not finished w/this cycling epoch!!!

Re nitrates… This is the 3rd tank i’ve cycled, &, following the establishment of amm/nitrite 0 status, nitrates have proven to be the biggest challenge re maintenance of levels not threatening to the health of the scaly population.

I do a water change on the 5gal every 5days to keep the nitrates, at best, betw. 10-20ppm.
I’m consistent about cleaning/testing—daily siphoning of uneaten food, etc.. The hillstream & the mystery snail chow down on algae biscuits (Fluval bug bites) & the algae coating the plants (what the horned snail subsists on).

The population of the 5gal is 1 hillstream loach, 1 mystery snail, 1 horned snail. I’m hoping to move the hillstream to the 10gal—perhaps the mystery snail too.
The objective is to make the 5gal a home for a plakat betta (a successor to the one i lost).

I’ve attached a pic so u can see the plant factor.

Any anti-nitrate tips?

TY!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Oops—forgot pic

 

[Andy Sager]

The problem with little tanks is they can go bad really quickly so unless you get better nitrate absorbing plants that consume a lot of it, frequent water changes are your best solution. BTW, just because it's a plant does not mean it's going to consume a lot of nitrates. With this experience cycling the new tank, you should now understand that in order for there to be a lot of nitrates, there has to be a large ammonia source first. That's most likely coming from the wafers the loach is eating then pooping. You also have the issue of: If you are adding plant fertilizers, that can be adding nitrate or ammonium to the water ( Check your fert's ingredients). So it's more than likely one of those two.

 

[EGGBERT]

Everything u’ve said (re nitrate load) makes sense—period—no argument!

Since i’ve been learning on the go, i’ve made a truckload of mistakes that have ultimately been beneficial since they’ve highlighted the priorities of this process & heightened my edge in knowing what to look for/what to avoid, etc.. I’ve become somewhat fanatic—i’m not a ‘half way’ type—it’s ‘all in’ or not at all…

So, i check certain water parameters daily:
amm., nitrite, pH; i sometimes check the pH 2ce/day because it sporadically creeps toward acidity, & i like to keep it within the 7-7.6 range.

Amm./nitrite r consistently 0; i don’t always check nitrate because i know it’s mostly high & i do a water change every 5 days to keep it below 20ppm.

Re the hillstream’s eating/pooping, my thoroughness extends to daily removal of uneaten grub & any other conspicuous waste.

Although i have a product on hand, i haven’t used fertilizer because the plants have gone wild without it, which is why i was able to transfer a quantity of them to the 10gal

Tonight i did the ~75% water change, temp reset, etc, on the 10gal per your instruction:
dropped temp to 75F—pH, at the moment, remains at 7.6—amm./nitrite both 0 (yippee)—& the nitrate is a bit above 5ppm (est. re ‘colour’).

Not sure when i’ll feel confident enough to add varmints; will check levels tomorrow—stability will boost my confidence!

Of course u continue to have my gratitude—you’re a stellar teacher