Relatively New - Fish Died (again) - Need Advice

[Atoche]

Hello, thank you for reading my post. I am new to the board (today), and I am also new to the hobby.

I started about 2 years ago with a 5 gallon tank. Lived through 3 "fish kills" where my fish would die off after about 2 months of doing fine (guppies and platties). I decided to get a bigger tank thinking the water would be easier to keep in parameters.

Went to a 13 gallon tank. Cycled the tank (5 weeks)... populated with only a Swordtail and a Blue Neon Tetra... things were going good after 4 months, added 2 more Tetra's (pink and yellow) and a Gourami. Started to get a lot of algae - so I added 2 Mystery Snails (orange) and added some plants (Anubias)... things seemed to be very stable over the next 4 months...

About two weeks ago Swordtail was swimming slow and would not "perk up his fins" and the blue tetra seemed to be very bloated... the other two tetras and the gourami seemed ok... I added Metronidazole... 2 days later the swordtail seemed to perk up. Performed my normal 25% weekly water change (tap water + stress coat)... Two days later, the swordtail died . I am sad, and worried another "fish kill" is imminent.

I am worried about ammonia and oxygen levels so I ordered the ammonia test kit, as well as an air pump and bubble rock. They should arrive tomorrow (8.27.2024)...

Water Parameters: No3: 0; No2: 0; PH: 7; KH: 80; GH: 180. I don't know my ammonia number, that test kit arrives tomorrow. First pic is of the tank with the fish (minus the Swordtail). Second pic is a close up of the Gourami - I am curious if he has "hole in the head"....

Any advice, recommendations, encouragement or observations would be very welcome and greatly appreciated. My daughter loves the tank, feeding the fish... she even "misses them" when we are away for a couple of days. I feel terrible about killing the swordtail...

Thank you!

 

[Aiken Drum]

How did you cycle the tank? You don't have an ammonia test which is essential to cycling an aquarium.

 

[Atoche]

How did you cycle the tank? You don't have an ammonia test which is essential to cycling an aquarium.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, your question is appreciated.

What I did was I moved the small sponge from my old tank, to the new tank... and I moved the decorations as well, but used new gravel. I filled the tank with tap water + stress coat. I added Fitz "Turbo Start".... and ran the tank with no fish in it.... then about a week later the water got real cloudy (algae bloom?)... about a week after that the algae bloom dissipated quite a bit. I was using the API test strips and was watching the NO2 and the NO3. I read that the NO2 will go up, then go down to zero during the tank cycle, so I would test once per week just before water change. Then I did water changes once per week.. right around week 3 I started to see NO2 go down and considerable algae growth on the decorations... I added more turbo start, and waited a bit more than 1 week, then added fish.

I have never actually tested for Ammonia, that kit should come today. I assumed if the algae was growing on the decorations, it must be safe for the fish.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The problem with your cycling process is there is no ammonia going into the aquarium, so the cycle can't establish.

There are 2 main methods of cycling an aquarium. Fishless cycling and fish in cycling.

It looks like you tried to do a fishless cycle, but missed the most important step. A fishless cycle needs you to dose ammonia throughout the process. The microbes you are trying to grow feed on the ammonia, and grow sufficiently to add add fish. You made a good start by using established filter media, and the Fritz may have helped. But with no ammonia being dosed those microbes just starve due to lack of food. You need to be adding ammonia, and when you can add 2ppm of ammonia and see it cycled out in 24 hours you are cycled.

It looks like you had some ammonia in the system to have got to a point where you saw nitrite rise and fall, but not enough to cycle the tank. You really need to keep getting that ammonia up to 2ppm, and when you can cycle that out in 24 hours you are cycled. With no ammonia test you don't know how much ammonia there was to start with, and cycling out that initial amount once isnt enough to say you are cycled. This typically takes a couple of months, bit it can be quicker or take longer.

What looks like happened is you put fish into an uncycled aquarium. The ammonia will have effected the longterm health of the fish which became apparent weeks or months later when the fish died.

Your current nitrate suggests you still aren't cycled. The nitrogen cycle takes ammonia and turns it to nitrate. So in a cycled aquarium you should see some nitrate. However testing strips are notoriously not accurate and you simply can't trust what they tell you. When you get your ammonia test, just get a whole new test kit that is a liquid drop test. API Freshwater Master Testkit is easy to use, fairly reliable, and covers what you need. pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Short term. Change 25% of the water every day until you get a reliable test kit. Longer term. Get a reliable test kit and then we can work on getting your aquarium cycled.

 

[Atoche]

Short term. Change 25% of the water every day until you get a reliable test kit. Longer term. Get a reliable test kit and then we can work on getting your aquarium cycled.

Thank you for this insight, and clear communication that allows me to understand what perhaps is going on. I was nervous about posting, after receiving your response I am glad that I did!

The kit (API Freshwater Master Kit) should arrive today - I will perform the test and post the results here.

 

[Aiken Drum]

No need to be nervous about posting. There are no stupid questions. Everyone starts out somewhere, everyone makes mistakes. As long as we learn from mistakes and try not to repeat them too often everything is good.

We aren't miracle workers. Sometimes fish die for no apparent reason, but we can work through things and try to find out a cause and solution.

Getting those water parameters will be a good first step. Unfortunately it may be that the aquarium is now cycled and the parameters are now good, but the damage will have been done weeks ago when things might not been as they are now. In lieu of any other information getting the water as clean as possible and ensuring you are cycled is a good course of action.

 

[Atoche]

Thank you for the kind words.

My ammonia test strips came today (master kit is not until Sunday now)... but it is showing in the .25 - .5 range (it's darker than 0, lighter than .5).... They are API "Ammonia Test Strips"... I have created a spreadsheet and I will test daily for a while and record the results...

 

[Aiken Drum]

You don't want it getting any worse than that. If the ammonia gets above 0.5ppm change water.

 

[Atoche]

Thank you again for your advice and observations.

First things first, I believe that I have lost confidence in the test strips, and eagerly await the master test kit to help calm my nerves, and hopefully get more accurate parameter measurements. I will do two water changes this week (Weds and Sat) and limp along until the kit comes on Sunday. That will make 3 water changes in 1 week, I hope it does not over stress the fish.

That being said, given the parameters I am seeing, I am believing what you are telling me in that my tank is not cycled due to me never introducing enough ammonia to get the cycle started. So now, the big question in my mind is how can I introduce enough ammonia into my tank to get the cycle going - while at the same time keeping my fish alive?

I hope I asked that question well enough for you to comment... sorry I am so slow at this...

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you again for your advice and observations.

First things first, I believe that I have lost confidence in the test strips, and eagerly await the master test kit to help calm my nerves, and hopefully get more accurate parameter measurements. I will do two water changes this week (Weds and Sat) and limp along until the kit comes on Sunday. That will make 3 water changes in 1 week, I hope it does not over stress the fish.

That being said, given the parameters I am seeing, I am believing what you are telling me in that my tank is not cycled due to me never introducing enough ammonia to get the cycle started. So now, the big question in my mind is how can I introduce enough ammonia into my tank to get the cycle going - while at the same time keeping my fish alive?

I hope I asked that question well enough for you to comment... sorry I am so slow at this...

To put your mind at ease, there being fish in the tank is now your ammonia source so you do not want to add more ammonia on top of that.
What you need to understand is that when a tank " cycles" (a.k.a. establishes a biological filter bed), it means that there are enough nitrifying microbes present to handle the amount of ammonia being produced at that time. So you can " cycle" a tank with one fish or 100 fish and in the end, there will only be enough microbes for that one fish or those 100 fish. I read you are going to do a spreadsheet but to help you, this is what the full cycle looks like on a graph: Since there are 2 microbes that need to establish, there are 2 ( actually 3) things that need to happen. As you can see in the graph, the ammonia goes up then down as the nitrites go up and down. It's that second microbe, that makes the nitrites come down, that converts those nitrites into nitrates. Once you see the ammonia and nitrite go up and down to zero AND the nitrate level is climbing, THEN you have a "cycled" aquarium for however many fish you have in the tank. At that point, you will need to add new fish slowly ( timewise) to allow for that biological filter bed to grow to accommodate for the added ammonia produced by the new fish. The biological filter is a living breathing organism unto itself and it will grow and shrink based on the amount of ammonia present. If you add too many ammonia producers ( a.k.a. fish, crustaceans, frogs, etc) at one time, the water can become toxic before the biological filter can catch up. ( and it always eventually catches up. ) This is why after doing a " fish in cycle" ( which is what you are doing) you need to add new items in smaller amounts and over a longer period of time. For now, water changes are going to be your fish's best friend but you have to have ammonia present in order to feed that biological bed so you don't want to do large volume changes if at all possible. You'll be best served to do a weekly routine water change of 20%-25% to keep the ammonia level under .5 ppm. If your ammonia rises above that in less than a week, do more water changes per week until you get to the point where 1 per week will do that.
Hope this helps

 

[Atoche]

Hope this helps

Tremendously...

 

[Andy Sager]

Tremendously...

 

[Atoche]

Thank you both again for all of your time and assistance.

Finally RX'ed the Master Test Kit... Kit testing seems to confirm previous thoughts. Looks like Ammonia is now at .25, with NO2: 0; NO3: 0.

So it seems confirmed I'm on the slow road "Fish In Cycle"... I will be cautious, monitor the Ammonia closely, do frequent 3 gallon water changes (15 gallon tank) on a rigid schedule (same day/days). Perhaps by the time the tank is fully cycled - I will finally be in full understanding of water parameters...

Pics of test results for detail....

 

[Aiken Drum]

What about water parameters don't you understand?

 

[Atoche]

What about water parameters don't you understand?

Thank you for the question, it's a bit embarrassing - but.....

Well, I mean I understand what the parameters are, but I really had no idea how to manage the tank to keep the parameters livable for the fish. At first I didn't really understand the cycle at all. I was not concentrating enough and I wrongly assumed "it's not that important to focus on". I thought (incorrectly) if the water was clear everything was "ok"... I didn't take the time to ask nor educate myself on how a tank really works, and I also didn't understand how to really "clean" a tank (I still kind of don't).

Only recently have I discovered that I was over cleaning the filter sponge, and frequently changing out the bio-balls because I thought "clean and fresh" was the way to go... Thinking back it's amazing that my fish lasted as long as they did, given my poor focus and approach. I was in the "why can't I buy the right stuff to make my small tank a success" mentality, when in fact all I had to do is ask, listen and think about it a bit . I still don't have a "feel" for the time it takes to get to a stable place... something I will look forward to developing. I am not sure if I should be prepping water and letting it sit before adding to the tank. I also am not sure if Stress Coat instantly neutralizes chlorine... If my water changes are killing my filter bacteria... ect.... ...

I guess that's a long way to say, I knew what the parameters were, I just had no idea at all how to keep them correct. I'm starting to get it, but I think I have more to learn about managing a tank effectively long term.

I'm glad I found this board, I've been reading a lot of the posts, and the fog is beginning to clear ...

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you both again for all of your time and assistance.

Finally RX'ed the Master Test Kit... Kit testing seems to confirm previous thoughts. Looks like Ammonia is now at .25, with NO2: 0; NO3: 0.

So it seems confirmed I'm on the slow road "Fish In Cycle"... I will be cautious, monitor the Ammonia closely, do frequent 3 gallon water changes (15 gallon tank) on a rigid schedule (same day/days). Perhaps by the time the tank is fully cycled - I will finally be in full understanding of water parameters...

Pics of test results for detail....

Just so you know, fish in cycles do not happen overnight. We are talking it's going to take months. It is a slower process so your patience may be tested. Before the " fishless" cycle was " invented", we only did fish in cycles and many fish lived through them. The thing is there is no way to know just how long YOUR tank is going to take. I've had tanks take 6 weeks and some 4-5 months. Same room, same source water, different species of fish so as I said, patience pays. It happens when it happens. You just need to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low enough with water changes to keep the water safe for the fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you for the question, it's a bit embarrassing - but.....

Well, I mean I understand what the parameters are, but I really had no idea how to manage the tank to keep the parameters livable for the fish. At first I didn't really understand the cycle at all. I was not concentrating enough and I wrongly assumed "it's not that important to focus on". I thought (incorrectly) if the water was clear everything was "ok"... I didn't take the time to ask nor educate myself on how a tank really works, and I also didn't understand how to really "clean" a tank (I still kind of don't).

Only recently have I discovered that I was over cleaning the filter sponge, and frequently changing out the bio-balls because I thought "clean and fresh" was the way to go... Thinking back it's amazing that my fish lasted as long as they did, given my poor focus and approach. I was in the "why can't I buy the right stuff to make my small tank a success" mentality, when in fact all I had to do is ask, listen and think about it a bit . I still don't have a "feel" for the time it takes to get to a stable place... something I will look forward to developing. I am not sure if I should be prepping water and letting it sit before adding to the tank. I also am not sure if Stress Coat instantly neutralizes chlorine... If my water changes are killing my filter bacteria... ect.... ...

I guess that's a long way to say, I knew what the parameters were, I just had no idea at all how to keep them correct. I'm starting to get it, but I think I have more to learn about managing a tank effectively long term.

I'm glad I found this board, I've been reading a lot of the posts, and the fog is beginning to clear ...

I'll tell you what my Mentor told me. Keep in mind that he told me this when I was 7 years old: " By the time I'm done with you, you'll have the scientific education most scientists don't get. " My Mentor was a friend of my Mother's who owned the only pet store in the town they grew up in and all the fish he sold in the front of his store, he bred in the back of his store. He went to school for many years to become a certified Ichthyologist. By listening and learning from him, I was breeding many of his fish for his store by the time I was 10. So the information is not difficult but it sometimes goes against what one perceives would be right. Case in point: Cleaner is better. Ecosystems are cleaned not by sterility but by what we consider dirty. It's the " stuff" in the gunk that is cleaning the water and environment making it healthy for living things to exist in it. Our job is just to keep the gunk from getting overloaded.
So the best thing you can do is ask before doing. It's much easier (and less costly) to prevent problems than fix them.

 

[Atoche]

You just need to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low enough with water changes to keep the water safe for the fish.

So the best thing you can do is ask before doing. It's much easier (and less costly) to prevent problems than fix them.

Again, thank you. And I am sure my fish appreciate all the help I am getting as well (whether they know it or not)...

 

[Andy Sager]

Again, thank you. And I am sure my fish appreciate all the help I am getting as well (whether they know it or not)...

 

[Aiken Drum]

I am not sure if I should be prepping water and letting it sit before adding to the tank.

What most people do when changing water, myself included, is remove water from the tank, add enough dechlorinator to treat the whole tank volume to the aquarium, and then refill the aquarium with water that's a similar temperature to that in the aquarium from buckets or with a hose straight from the tap. This might be using more dechlorinator than is needed, but it ensures your fish aren't effected by chlorine/ chloramine. If you are filling the aquarium bucket by bucket, you can treat each bucket with enough dechlorinator to treat the bucket volume, but I find this fiddly and inconvenient. Much easier to treat your 13 gallon tank with enough dechlorinator to treat 13 gallons of water, than to individually treat 2 or 3 three gallon buckets. By prepping water I presume you mean letting it sit for a period. This will allow chlorine to offgas, but won't do anything if your tapwater is treated with chloramine. If you are treating with dechlorinator then you don't need to let it sit to remove chlorine/ chloramine. If you are adding buffering salts to raise pH, KH and/ or GH, then you need to do this before you refill the aquarium.

I also am not sure if Stress Coat instantly neutralizes chlorine.

Dechlorinators work on contact. If you add dechlorinator to your water it will remove chlorine/ chlorine as soon as its mixed. As per above, I add my dechlorinator straight into the aquarium and simply refilling should be enough to mix it sufficiently to ensure chlorine/ chloramine won't effect your fish.

This doesn't relate to your question, but I'm not a fan of Stresscoat. Personal opinion, though, so you should make up your own mind.

• I'm not keen on adding aloe vera into the aquarium. Aloe vera is a sugary, oily substance that coats fishes gills and makes then inefficient, and irritates the fish to promote a slimecoat response. None of this seems a good idea to me.
• It's ridiculously expensive. This is my main objection to this product.

473ml of API Stresscoat is about £12. It will treat about 3700 litres of tapwater. So about 32p to treat 100 litres of water.

500ml of Seachen Prime is around £21. It will treat 20000 litres of tapwater, so £0.10 per 100 litres of water treated.

473 ml of API Aqua Essential is around £12. It will treat 18000 litres of tapwater, so £0.07 per 100 litres of water treated.

These aren't typos. Stresscoat is 3x more expensive than Prime, and 4.5x more expensive than Aqua Essential. Prime and Aqua Essential are also far better products IMO.

Stesscoat does remove chlorine and chloramine, but the bells and whistles arent worth the extra money, and Stresscoat doesn't detoxify ammonia the same as Prime and Aqua Essential.