Tank improvement ideas please! Bristlenose pleco and fancy goldfish

[46GFreshwater]

I'd like to investigate ideas to improve my tank for the goldfish and bristlenose pleco!


Tank specs
46 gallon bowfront
Temp 74F or 23.5C
0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10-20 nitrate
pH 7.8
Tank occupants: 2 fancy goldfish approx 3 inches (8 cm) in length including tail fins, adult bristlenose pleco approx 3-4 inches in length
Filtration: Marineland Penguin 350 HOB, and Top Fin Pro Series 50 HOB
Feeding for pleco: top fin algae thins, fluval bug bites, occ blanched cucumber
Feeding for goldfish: Omega one small goldfish pellets (2 mm), Cobalt Aquatics goldfish flakes, occ dried bloodworms, occ squished cooked green pea

My concern with the pleco is that he hides all the time. He has always been shy, but it is worse since I re-scaped the aquarium in February. I swapped blue gravel for natural coloured gravel, replaced an artificial log with an artificial driftwood ornament, and added a second filter. I added the goldfish in March and re-added the pleco a month later. In the old aquascape, he would spend most of the time upside down on the artificial log or sometimes would go inside it. He would dart away and hide if someone walked by the tank or came up to the glass. In the new ‘scape he is even more shy and spends nearly 100% of the time in his “cave” which is inside the dragon ornament. I don't like it because I can't check on him daily, I don't know how much of the sinking wafers and bug bites he gets, and I worry he could get stuck in there. The dragon ornament is not new but I changed the log ornament for a different artificial wood ornament because the goldfish could have become stuck in the old log (it was hollow and had big enough holes for goldfish).

My concerns with the goldfish, is the current from my HOB filters too strong? They spend a lot of their time on the right side of the tank, away from the Marineland filter. I do see them all over the tank but I wonder if I should swap to a filter with more gentle flow.

Also I wanted some input on the diet for the goldfish, I was looking at adding in something like frozen spirulina brine shrimp. I have never used a product like that before - would it be good to give daily? Any other suggestions for feeding?

Thirdly, the goldfish have slightly tattered tails. When I first noticed this I removed some of the artificial plants that I thought could be too rough. The ones I left in there feel soft to my fingers but maybe I should remove all of them? I do want to get some live plants e.g. Anubias or Java fern but I think I need to buy a new light first. Any other reason for tattered tails? I don't see them pick at each other. Could a too-strong filter current cause
rips to develop?

Thanks!

Photos include old aquascape (blue gravel), 3 photos of the goldies to see the tattered tail fins, and full tank shot with new aquascape

 

[Jacky12]

Tattered tails can be caused by bacterial infections or nipping by other fish. Goldfish are not suitable for a tank your size. They can get up to a foot long, if well kept. I keep a small group of Goldies in a 225 G tank with a complex sump filtration system. Even so, I’m thinking about working on a koi pond a former owner of this house installed. If I didn’t have that big tank, I’d give them to someone with a pond. I see people doing that often in local FB groups.

 

[Andy Sager]

As Jacky12 stated, your tank is not really good for the goldfish in the long term. Unless you have a plan for them as they grow larger, you may want to reconsider keeping them.
As for the Pleco, they are not an out in front fish to begin with. Hiding is their typical behavior. They are primarily more active at night than during the day so I'd take a dim flashlight and look at the tank a couple of hour after lights out.
As for the tattered tail, there are a number reasons this can happen. The pleco could have been searching for food and found the goldie sleeping and accidentally bitten it. The other Goldfish could have chewed it. It could have scrapped against a decoration. It could be caused by malnutrition. It could have a genetic weakness in the tail making the fin easily tear. It could be the start of a bacterial infection. ( This is just the short list ) What you need to do is keep an eye on the area and watch for blood streaks in the tail, redness at the slits or any fuzziness around the area and keep the water clean.
As for the live plants, Goldfish do like to eat plants so you may want to reconsider those as well.
As for the foods, Goldfish do not have stomachs, per se, so they need to eat numerous times per day. The foods you are feeding are okay but I prefer flakes and frozen over pelleted foods . ( That could just be my " old school" ways tho. ) Adding the enriched frozen Brine Shrimp is not a bad idea. You might also want to look into Dr Bassleer brand of foods to help add more vitamins and minerals to their diet.

As for the flow issue, you can add something like a filter pad across the flow stream or even a taller rock or wood to help disperse the return flow so that the current isn't as strong in the tank while it is still filtering that larger amount of water. Goldfish are messy fish so the more water going through that filter, the better.

Hope this helps.

 

[46GFreshwater]

Tattered tails can be caused by bacterial infections or nipping by other fish. Goldfish are not suitable for a tank your size. They can get up to a foot long, if well kept. I keep a small group of Goldies in a 225 G tank with a complex sump filtration system. Even so, I’m thinking about working on a koi pond a former owner of this house installed. If I didn’t have that big tank, I’d give them to someone with a pond. I see people doing that often in local FB groups.

Hello, thank you for your reply! I have experience with keeping tropical community aquariums, but this is my first goldfish tank so I appreciate insight and advice so that I can take good care of our fish.
I thought fancy goldfish did not grow as large as single tailed varieties. My fish are the double tailed fantails. They are pretty small now, only about 3 inches in length, which includes the tails. How old are they likely to be now at 3 inches? I thought fantails grew to approximately 8 inches in size? How long does it take for them to reach their full size?
I am capable of upgrading their tank to a larger one when they need it. I think they currently have adequate swimming space and the water parameters have been stable with weekly or every 2 week water changes. Nitrates usually between 10-20 (the colour looks the same to me on the API Master kit).
In the last 2 weeks I removed the artificial plants and put in java fern and a large sword plant. I have installed a full spectrum LED light. The fish seem to use more of the tank now that I removed the artificial plants - I think they were too bulky

 

[46GFreshwater]

As Jacky12 stated, your tank is not really good for the goldfish in the long term. Unless you have a plan for them as they grow larger, you may want to reconsider keeping them.
As for the Pleco, they are not an out in front fish to begin with. Hiding is their typical behavior. They are primarily more active at night than during the day so I'd take a dim flashlight and look at the tank a couple of hour after lights out.
As for the tattered tail, there are a number reasons this can happen. The pleco could have been searching for food and found the goldie sleeping and accidentally bitten it. The other Goldfish could have chewed it. It could have scrapped against a decoration. It could be caused by malnutrition. It could have a genetic weakness in the tail making the fin easily tear. It could be the start of a bacterial infection. ( This is just the short list ) What you need to do is keep an eye on the area and watch for blood streaks in the tail, redness at the slits or any fuzziness around the area and keep the water clean.
As for the live plants, Goldfish do like to eat plants so you may want to reconsider those as well.
As for the foods, Goldfish do not have stomachs, per se, so they need to eat numerous times per day. The foods you are feeding are okay but I prefer flakes and frozen over pelleted foods . ( That could just be my " old school" ways tho. ) Adding the enriched frozen Brine Shrimp is not a bad idea. You might also want to look into Dr Bassleer brand of foods to help add more vitamins and minerals to their diet.

As for the flow issue, you can add something like a filter pad across the flow stream or even a taller rock or wood to help disperse the return flow so that the current isn't as strong in the tank while it is still filtering that larger amount of water. Goldfish are messy fish so the more water going through that filter, the better.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your response! I have experience keeping freshwater tropical community tanks but this is my first goldfish tank. I appreciate your time and I want to learn how to take good care of my fish.

Since my first post I have removed the artificial plants and have planted a large sword plant and attached a few java ferns. The plants have been in the tank for 1-2 weeks. I also have a better LED light now for the plants. I posted an updated photo in my reply to Jacky12.

The goldfish are swimming all over the tank now, I think they like the new arrangement. Maybe the artificial plants were too bulky. The pleco does come out at night and he ate some of the sword leaves so I have been occasionally putting in some romaine lettuce for him at night and putting more sinking pleco foods at night. I also figured I can put a sinking wafer in the front of the dragon's mouth so the goldfish can't get it but the pleco can (he made the inside of the dragon his cave).

Thank you for your insight about the torn tails. The tails start to heal and then get new rips in them. There have never been red streaks or fuzzy growth. I have an API test kit and have been checking the parameters usually twice a month. The nitrates have always been less than 20. I do partial water changes every 1-2 weeks.

Thank you for your comments on the food, I did end up getting the spirulina loaded brine shrimp and have been feeding the fish those a few times a week. I have dried bloodworms they get occasionally too. The pellets I feed daily and sometimes alternate with flakes if I feed more than once a day. I am thinking of getting an automatic feeder so they are guaranteed one meal at the same time every day and then I can manually give additional feedings.

How long do you think it will take until they outgrow this 46 gallon tank? I don't know how fast they are supposed to grow. They don't seem to have grown much in the past 6 months but I see them every day so maybe I just haven't noticed it. I think fantails are supposed to grow to 8 inches total?

Thanks again!

 

[Andy Sager]

If you are only feeding once a day, they aren't going to grow much or grow too fast because Goldfish don't have a stomach so they are constantly digesting food so they really should be fed 3 or 4 times a day, not just once or occasionally twice. Because of this, it's hard to say when they will outgrow your tank.
Glad to see the changes have improved the way the fish are acting.

 

[46GFreshwater]

If you are only feeding once a day, they aren't going to grow much or grow too fast because Goldfish don't have a stomach so they are constantly digesting food so they really should be fed 3 or 4 times a day, not just once or occasionally twice. Because of this, it's hard to say when they will outgrow your tank.
Glad to see the changes have improved the way the fish are acting.

Thank you! It sounds like I can improve their care by feeding more times a day. I just ordered a drum type automatic feeder so that I can increase their daily feedings.

 

[46GFreshwater]

Since I will be feeding them more, I will make sure that I test the water weekly and do partial water changes once or twice weekly as needed to keep nitrates low.

I will get a larger tank when they need more space. We have the floor space for a longer tank and it is located in the basement so the cement floor can take the weight. What are good recommendations for mature fancy goldfish? I.e. gallons per fish, filtration, substrate vs bare bottom tank. I realize a lot can be personal preference but I appreciate any insight.

I should have realized they will eventually need a larger tank. Even if they only grow to 8 inches as I first thought, a longer tank would be ideal so they can have enough swimming room. I found an old post by jlk with an image of a juvenile 1.5 inch telescope eye goldfish next to a mature 15 inch fish. Eye-opening!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Since I will be feeding them more, I will make sure that I test the water weekly and do partial water changes once or twice weekly as needed to keep nitrates low.

I will get a larger tank when they need more space. We have the floor space for a longer tank and it is located in the basement so the cement floor can take the weight. What are good recommendations for mature fancy goldfish? I.e. gallons per fish, filtration, substrate vs bare bottom tank. I realize a lot can be personal preference but I appreciate any insight.

I should have realized they will eventually need a larger tank. Even if they only grow to 8 inches as I first thought, a longer tank would be ideal so they can have enough swimming room. I found an old post by jlk with an image of a juvenile 1.5 inch telescope eye goldfish next to a mature 15 inch fish. Eye-opening!!!

Yup, they do get large. A common comet gets over a foot long when fully mature. Fancy goldfish may get 8"-10" bodies then add in the fins. :^0 For mature goldfish, only a pond is " ideal" but for while they are growing, a tank at least 4' long will work until they need an upgrade to a 5' or 6' + tank. Gallons per fish does not matter. Square footage at the bottom does. The more water in the tank tho, the longer it will take for the water to go bad. So think in terms of swimming space more than gallons.
As for filters, you should use oversized canister filters.
As for substrate or not, it will depend on what color the fish end up being. You either want a bare bottom that has a contrasting color so the fish show up better or a substrate that does the same. Substrate can hide food in it which is the argument against using it while the fish by nature ( as a carp relative) like to dig in the substrate for food which is the argument for using substrate. So you have to weigh the pros and cons for you.

 

[46GFreshwater]

Yup, they do get large. A common comet gets over a foot long when fully mature. Fancy goldfish may get 8"-10" bodies then add in the fins. :^0 For mature goldfish, only a pond is " ideal" but for while they are growing, a tank at least 4' long will work until they need an upgrade to a 5' or 6' + tank. Gallons per fish does not matter. Square footage at the bottom does. The more water in the tank tho, the longer it will take for the water to go bad. So think in terms of swimming space more than gallons.
As for filters, you should use oversized canister filters.
As for substrate or not, it will depend on what color the fish end up being. You either want a bare bottom that has a contrasting color so the fish show up better or a substrate that does the same. Substrate can hide food in it which is the argument against using it while the fish by nature ( as a carp relative) like to dig in the substrate for food which is the argument for using substrate. So you have to weigh the pros and cons for you.

I appreciate all the time you have taken in replying to me
I just want to leave an update, my fish have been doing well! They seem healthy and I have been doing big water changes (50-75%) 1-2 times a week. I also added an apple philodendron and an ivy to the top of the tank (leaves out, roots in). I purchased an automatic feeder to help make sure they are getting fed 1x automatically and then I give additional feeding.

My future plans are for a longer tank with sand substrate or what do you think of a small gravel? Would it be easier for their gut to pass sand if they ingested some while foraging or would it be easier for them to spit out the very small gravel? So far they have been fine (knock on wood) with foraging in the gravel they have currently.

Also is it actually ill-advised to keep the bristlenose in with them? They seem to coexist peacefully and I recently added a second wood piece for the pleco. The temperature of the tank is 23-23.5 which is a range that both species can live at according to aqadvisor

Thanks! Take care

 

[Andy Sager]

There are 2 ways of looking at substrate: smaller materials ( i.e. sand, small gravel, etc) will tend to not hide any food that falls on it but there is always the chance that the fish can swallow a piece or pieces and either choke or have it cause an intestinal blockage. ( The fish in my Avatar died from a piece of gravel I was using to hold down a plastic plant. I did an autopsy and found it in his intestine. )
Larger materials: Using a large stone type (i.e. pea gravel or similar) substrate ensures that the fish can't swallow any pieces but can have food get in between the pieces and cause water quality issues if not attended to frequently. For goldfish, my preference is large stone. I don't want them putting anything other than food into their mouths. ( This is also why most of my tanks are bare bottom as well unless the fish needed a sand bottom for breeding or for fish like Cory cats. ) So the choice is yours now that you see what the pitfalls of all of them are.

Bristlenose plecos are mainly nocturnal so you won't see them much but they do a heck of a job keeping any biofilm or algae from building up. As for if its actually ill-advised, YES, they are usually a bad combo because if there is a lack of food, most all pleco species can suck the slime coat off the goldfish as a substitute because they have a lot of it. I've even caught them sucking on some breeder Angelfish that I was raising while they were sleeping at night. They are a risk you have to weigh. There is more to matching compatible tankmates than temperature range. This is one combo problem you don't usually find in many books or sites but a very real issue.

As for the future tank size, as I explained in my previous post, go big( longer and wider) vs taller as the fish need floor space more than water volume over their heads.

 

[46GFreshwater]

Bristlenose plecos are mainly nocturnal so you won't see them much but they do a heck of a job keeping any biofilm or algae from building up. As for if its actually ill-advised, YES, they are usually a bad combo because if there is a lack of food, most all pleco species can suck the slime coat off the goldfish as a substitute because they have a lot of it. I've even caught them sucking on some breeder Angelfish that I was raising while they were sleeping at night. They are a risk you have to weigh. There is more to matching compatible tankmates than temperature range. This is one combo problem you don't usually find in many books or sites but a very real issue.

Thank you
I had heard this elsewhere (Reddit) but I trust this forum more so I thought I would ask here. There are so many pleco species and I expect that some are more risky than others at attacking other fish. Have you heard about bristlenose in particular latching onto live goldfish?

I had the bristlenose pleco first (he used to be in a community tank with tiger barbs and zebra danios). Then he was alone in the aquarium for a year or two. I wanted to try fancy goldfish and thought they could coexist. I'll have to weigh the risks of keeping them together.

I will have to think about what is best for all of them. I do have another tropical community aquarium (36 gallon bowfront) I could move the bristlenose to. There is a clown pleco in there, and harlequin rasbora and mollies. I have only ever had one pleco per aquarium, is it safe to have a clown pleco and a bristlenose pleco together? I don't know what sex the clown pleco is, but I know the bristlenose is male. I don't know if different pleco species are likely to be aggressive with each other or not.

 

[46GFreshwater]

There are 2 ways of looking at substrate: smaller materials ( i.e. sand, small gravel, etc) will tend to not hide any food that falls on it but there is always the chance that the fish can swallow a piece or pieces and either choke or have it cause an intestinal blockage. ( The fish in my Avatar died from a piece of gravel I was using to hold down a plastic plant. I did an autopsy and found it in his intestine. )

Sorry to hear about your fish

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you
I had heard this elsewhere (Reddit) but I trust this forum more so I thought I would ask here. There are so many pleco species and I expect that some are more risky than others at attacking other fish. Have you heard about bristlenose in particular latching onto live goldfish?

I had the bristlenose pleco first (he used to be in a community tank with tiger barbs and zebra danios). Then he was alone in the aquarium for a year or two. I wanted to try fancy goldfish and thought they could coexist. I'll have to weigh the risks of keeping them together.

I will have to think about what is best for all of them. I do have another tropical community aquarium (36 gallon bowfront) I could move the bristlenose to. There is a clown pleco in there, and harlequin rasbora and mollies. I have only ever had one pleco per aquarium, is it safe to have a clown pleco and a bristlenose pleco together? I don't know what sex the clown pleco is, but I know the bristlenose is male. I don't know if different pleco species are likely to be aggressive with each other or not.

Yes you can have different species of plecos together but the key is they need a lot of space in between them so in a 36 gallon tank, I wouldn't dare try different species. the floor space is too small.
In my case, I had all albino bristlenose and that was what I caught sucking onto my Angelfish so if they will do them, they obviously can do it to Goldfish.
As for my Avatar fish, it really goes under the category of " stuff happens. " I've bred literally hundreds of pairs of Angels and raised over 1 million angelfish for the trade and that was the first time I ever had one swallow a piece of gravel. So while it was a freak thing, it only proves that nothing is guaranteed and no matter how much experience you have, mistakes can happen or a fish just doesn't read their profile and they act out of character. Goldfish will always try to eat foods off the bottom because that's what carp ( their ancient ancestors that all goldfish came from) do so you run the risk of a piece causing a problem. The only way to 99% guarantee it won't is to not give them the opportunity.

 

[46GFreshwater]

Yes you can have different species of plecos together but the key is they need a lot of space in between them so in a 36 gallon tank, I wouldn't dare try different species. the floor space is too small.

Thank you, I thought it might be a bit cramped in the 36 gallon for the two plecos. I have only ever housed one at a time per aquarium.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you, I thought it might be a bit cramped in the 36 gallon for the two plecos. I have only ever housed one at a time per aquarium.

It's all about the floor space.