Updated & More Questions - Fishless Cycling New Aquarium

[HooblaDan]

Hello all, here's my prior thread

New Aquarium - Fishless Cycling - Could Use Help

Hello everybody, I started a 20 gallon long aquarium on fishless cycling the day after Christmas. This is going to be my boys' aquarium, but they are young and I want them to learn to take care of their new pets well. We bought all of the initial stuff at a local fish store in Southern...

www.aquariumadvice.com

Following your helpful answers in there, I almost immediately changed the substrate of the tank and planted more plants in the aquarium while chopping the artificial ones off of my decorations.

I have waited 5 weeks with this new set-up, and have some pictures attached and new questions.

I dose Stability once a week along with a 20% water change, in which I use Prime and swish my sponge filter around in the dirty tank water that I have pulled out. My aquarium is kept at 78-81 degrees to promote bacterial growth. I dose ammonia to about 1ppm after the tank has been at 0ppm for one to two days. Each week, I have what I would consider moderate algae growth and my pH goes from about 7.8 to below 6.0 or below (API only reads down to 6.0, I think). It's my understanding that algae growth and pH fluctuations are normal while cycling.

So, questions:

1. Still Not Cycled - My ammonia processing fluctuates greatly and still has not reached the ability to process ammonia from 2ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours (it's my understanding that this should be my goal before I put fish in). Sometimes, my ammonia processing can handle about 1ppm to 0ppm in about 24 hours. Other times, that 1ppm seems to linger for days before finally going down. I frankly have no idea what is going on here, and considering that we bought the aquarium for my boys for Christmas and that I have been trying to get it cycled since then, I'm losing even my own patience, and I'm a fairly patient man. Nitrite processing is also fluctuating but seems to be better overall than ammonia, and I see very little nitrates. I presume that my plants and algae are processing that? What in the world can I do to get this thing cycled about two months and change of work on it? (I know that changing the substrate was a setback for cycle)

2. As you can see, some of my rhizome plants are sprouting new babies. It's my understanding that I should clip these off and attach them to my scenery. My question is, where do I clip them off? Do I just clip off the whole tip of the leaf where they are growing, or just try to cut around the new tiny rhizome? And do I just super glue gel the tiny rhizome onto the scenery?

Thank you so much for any help that you can provide, and please let me know if I can provide any additional information that might help.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Your options on cycling are either to see it through or do 100% water change, get some fish and complete your cycle with a fish in cycle.

We have a lot of traffic on this forum with people struggling to aquariums, and by far more people have trouble with fishless cycling than fish in cycling. And of those that have trouble with fishless cycling, almost all of them are solved getting some fish and going fish in.

As for the plantlets, to me this bit here looks to be the only one that might be ready to remove.


And even that I would leave longer before removing it. Just pull the plantlet off with your fingers, or it will eventually just fall off on its own.

 

[Andy Sager]

Regarding question #1, The optimal pH for the nitrifying microbes is 7.8- 8.8+ so when your pH falls to below 7.8, the microbes are not multiplying as quickly as they should and without that, it takes longer for the tank to cycle no matter which method you use. ( Below 6.0, nitrification is so slow that it may appear to have stopped.) You need to check your Carbonate Hardness ( KH) to see why your pH fluctuates so much. Most likely, it's because your KH is very low. OR, your nitrate level is very high. The higher your nitrates go, the faster your KH get's absorbed which causes the pH to drop. ( In an uncycled tank however, it's more likely the pH is the problem. FYI, pH fluctuations are not " normal" while cycling. It can be affected by CO2, higher ammonia and acidic items in the aquarium but it's not automatic that the pH will fluctuate. )
Regarding the low nitrate level, I'd presume it's more from the lack of nitrification vs the plants utilizing it.

 

[HooblaDan]

Your options on cycling are either to see it through or do 100% water change, get some fish and complete your cycle with a fish in cycle.

We have a lot of traffic on this forum with people struggling to aquariums, and by far more people have trouble with fishless cycling than fish in cycling. And of those that have trouble with fishless cycling, almost all of them are solved getting some fish and going fish in.

As for the plantlets, to me this bit here looks to be the only one that might be ready to remove.

View attachment 391542
And even that I would leave longer before removing it. Just pull the plantlet off with your fingers, or it will eventually just fall off on its own.

Thank you for your help! I will reduce my water temperature and get ready for our neon tetras.

 

[HooblaDan]

Regarding question #1, The optimal pH for the nitrifying microbes is 7.8- 8.8+ so when your pH falls to below 7.8, the microbes are not multiplying as quickly as they should and without that, it takes longer for the tank to cycle no matter which method you use. ( Below 6.0, nitrification is so slow that it may appear to have stopped.) You need to check your Carbonate Hardness ( KH) to see why your pH fluctuates so much. Most likely, it's because your KH is very low. OR, your nitrate level is very high. The higher your nitrates go, the faster your KH get's absorbed which causes the pH to drop. ( In an uncycled tank however, it's more likely the pH is the problem. FYI, pH fluctuations are not " normal" while cycling. It can be affected by CO2, higher ammonia and acidic items in the aquarium but it's not automatic that the pH will fluctuate. )
Regarding the low nitrate level, I'd presume it's more from the lack of nitrification vs the plants utilizing it.

Thank you for your help!

I have just completed my weekly water change, this time about 25% (5 gallons of the 20).

Before I put my fresh water in but after I Primed it, I used my API kit to test my pH and Dipstick test sticks to test the alkalinity and hardness. Results are pictured below.

It looks like my pH is about 7.8 - 8.0, my alkalinity is about 180, my carbonate is about 120 (I'm less sure on reading this one), and my GH is about 500 (which, according to Dipstick's range, is too darned high)

This is, of course, before I put it in the tank and it mixes with the remainder of the tank water.

Do these measurements help in diagnosing the possible issue with more certainty? The alkalinity and carbonate look good initially, so why is the pH crashing? Is it because of the overly high general hardness?

EDIT: For further reference, I also performed a dipstick test and a pH test after I put the water in. Results are added below in the pictures, but in text: Alkalinity between 0 and 40, Carbonate between 0 and 40, General Hardness about 250, pH looks like it's about 7.8.

 

[Andy Sager]

You want to do a pH test on your tap water after it sits overnight to get a more accurate reading after it " gasses off". Do these same tests tomorrow and let's see where we are at only this time, use the lower pH reagent not the high pH one. Do the tank as well again tomorrow after the water has fully circulated.
For the record, a higher GH will not cause the pH to crash as much as it will raise the pH but the KH is what the nitrifying microbes also need to grow so that low number is not helpful but your reading may have been because the new water hadn't fully circulated yet.

 

[HooblaDan]

You want to do a pH test on your tap water after it sits overnight to get a more accurate reading after it " gasses off". Do these same tests tomorrow and let's see where we are at only this time, use the lower pH reagent not the high pH one. Do the tank as well again tomorrow after the water has fully circulated.
For the record, a higher GH will not cause the pH to crash as much as it will raise the pH but the KH is what the nitrifying microbes also need to grow so that low number is not helpful but your reading may have been because the new water hadn't fully circulated yet.

I did not know that the tap needed to gas off!

I left a cup of tap out to settle overnight. Results of tap and aquarium follow.

Tap:

1. Dipstick shows pH 7.2 (I usually trust API's pH more), Alkalinity looks like between 120 and 180, Carbonate looks like 120, GH looks like 250.
2. API Low Range pH shows a color not even on the charts, presumably over 7.6.
3. API High Range pH shows 8.0, I'd say.

Aquarium:

1. Dipstick shows low pH, maybe 6.2 (again, I trust API for this, just on assumption that it's more precise). Alkalinity looks between 0 and 40, Carbonate looks the same between 0 and 40, GH looks like 250.
2. API Low Range pH shows a teal that looks like it's around 7.0 to 7.2, but I'm less certain that I'm interpreting that correctly.

 

[Andy Sager]

So something in the aquarium is sucking up the alkalinity and after looking again at your pics in post #1, it may be CO2. You don't really have good surface breaking at the end opposite the filter. I see you have what looks like a recirculating pump on the wall but it's pointing downward so not helping the water break the surface. What I would do, if you don't want to have the filter in the center of the tank, is move the pump to the filter side of the tank and have it blowing the bubbles from the filter throughout the tank. The more breakage of the surface, the more exchange of gases happens and since the plants do create CO2 which can be released into the water and is released from the water when the bubble bursts at the surface, but since you don't have good surface breakage, the CO2 just circulates in the tank which causes the pH to fall which slows the nitrifying microbes that are trying to cycle the tank. ( inhale ) You can also add a second filter on the opposite side or add just an air stone or bubble wand on that side so that the pump can blow those bubbles around the tank.

 

[HooblaDan]

So something in the aquarium is sucking up the alkalinity and after looking again at your pics in post #1, it may be CO2. You don't really have good surface breaking at the end opposite the filter. I see you have what looks like a recirculating pump on the wall but it's pointing downward so not helping the water break the surface. What I would do, if you don't want to have the filter in the center of the tank, is move the pump to the filter side of the tank and have it blowing the bubbles from the filter throughout the tank. The more breakage of the surface, the more exchange of gases happens and since the plants do create CO2 which can be released into the water and is released from the water when the bubble bursts at the surface, but since you don't have good surface breakage, the CO2 just circulates in the tank which causes the pH to fall which slows the nitrifying microbes that are trying to cycle the tank. ( inhale ) You can also add a second filter on the opposite side or add just an air stone or bubble wand on that side so that the pump can blow those bubbles around the tank.

Thank you so much for your help!

Right now, the only pump I'm running is connected to the sponge filter. The military tank decoration has a port for an air pump to feed into it, but it's not connected.

We are headed to the store to get our water tested by the store and, if it's acceptable to them, to pick up some neon tetras and maybe some amano shrimp for cleaning tonight. I will ask them about what they carry as far as air stones for breaking up tension or if maybe connecting the pump to the military tank decoration would be enough circulation to do that.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you so much for your help!

Right now, the only pump I'm running is connected to the sponge filter. The military tank decoration has a port for an air pump to feed into it, but it's not connected.

We are headed to the store to get our water tested by the store and, if it's acceptable to them, to pick up some neon tetras and maybe some amano shrimp for cleaning tonight. I will ask them about what they carry as far as air stones for breaking up tension or if maybe connecting the pump to the military tank decoration would be enough circulation to do that.

Those are not really the best fish/ inverts to cycle a tank with. Both are too weak to handle the ammonia rise. Shrimp need EXCELLENT water quality so they should only go in after the tank has stabilized. Most Tetras also do not handle poor water quality so what other fish were thinking of adding?

As for the air issue, if you have a splitter valve ( a.k.a. Gang valve), you should be able to run both items from the same pump. Anything that gets air bubbles to both sides of the tank with that circulation pump should work.

 

[Andy Sager]

One more question: What kind of substrate is that in the tank?

 

[HooblaDan]

One more question: What kind of substrate is that in the tank?

Sorry for the late reply here!

1. I went to the fish store and they recommended continuing fishless cycle. They said that they generally recommend fish-in cycle, but that since we've already put in so much work, we should see it through. Our nitrates were very high, ammonia gone and nitrite low. They recommended that I actually just stop feeding ammonia and stop water changes that I was doing to combat algae and just wait about two weeks, then do two 40% water changes and come in for four neon tetras to start before adding more to make a school. They stated that the bacteria will survive without feeding it ammonia. Nitrite and ammonia are now both zero and nitrates are quite high. Fuzz algae is growing fairly heavily in the tank around my plants.

2. I got a splitter and hooked it up to the tank decoration and we now have a bubbler on the other side, too.

3. The substrate is Controsand. I wanted some live plants and that is what they recommended. I originally had a coarser river pebble-type Controsand but they were too large for rooted plants and eventually I want some corys who supposedly do better on fine substrate so I replaced the substrate with the finer Controsand (that was a hassle, had to keep my plants and decorations in tank water to keep the bacteria from dying). I left a little pile of the pebbles in the hope that the bacteria would spread to the finer Controsand substrate that I got.

Thank you again for all of your help!

 

[Aiken Drum]

When they stated that the bacteria will survive if you don't feed ammonia they are wrong. The bacteria might survive a few days, but after that the microbial colony will start to die off. You might still have some left alive after a couple of weeks, but you will have undone a lot of the work you have done.

Either do 100% water change and add fish and finish off with a fish in cycle, or continue to dose ammonia and see out your fishless cycle.

In 2 weeks your microbial colony could still be sufficient to support 4 neons in your aquarium, but its more likely to be sufficient now than in 2 weeks. The purpose of a fishless cycle is to cycle the aquarium before getting fish, and to cycle it sufficiently to stock the tank. What your fish store is advising is a complete waste of 2 weeks, and will set you back a number of additional weeks.

 

[Andy Sager]

I agree with Aiken. If you add the 2PPM of Ammonia and it cycles out to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites in under 24 hours, your tank is cycled. Do a large volume water change to get the nitrates down to near 0 and then add fish. IF the ammonia does not cycle out in under 24 hours, I would wait it out.
After a little research, the Controsand releases nitrogen ( according to their website) into the water so that is probably why you have a high nitrate level. That means that without nitrate consumers, you are going to have algae. What I would do:
1) If the ammonia cycles out in 24 hours, scrub the algae as best you can, do a 100% water change, fill up the tank and get some fish. By doing such a large water change, you start the fish off in nice clean water.

2) If the ammonia does not cycle out in 24 hours, scrub the algae, do a water change to get the nitrates to between 10- 20 PPM and then add more nitrate consuming plants and bring your water ( before you change any of it) to your local shop to confirm your 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite readings.

There is a lot of debate just how long nitrifying microbes can survive without food. Without getting too technical, the time frame ranges from a couple of weeks to a year in dormancy. Since that is a rather large range of debate, better safe than sorry and not allow them to starve for too long. IMO.