My new 115G Cichlid tank - What you think?

[Sicklid]

I have had Red Zebras get bloat within the first time of eating a protein rich meal, and I have had some that eat earthworms with no problems ever shown... I would definitely upgrade to a larger tank in the future, but they should be okay for a while in that tank...

Look around on craigslist, I see 125 gal six-foot long tanks on there all the time for $100. I wouldn't keep them in anything smaller than that... Here is a good link to a nice Frontosa tank:
Hobbyist Gallery - Klaus Steinhaus

[DizzCat]

Hi spoonman. I have been a lurker here for about a week and have not posted yet, but felt the need to give you some info you will need in the near future. So, you are my first post

I do not know about Mono's or Puffers or Fronts, but I do know Mbuna (all your other fish). Mbuna (that is said um-boo-nah) are rock dwelling fish from Lake Malawi in Africa. Mbuna means "rock fish". They live their lives in rocky habitats.

You are going to have trouble with 3 issues from mixing fish of different needs. 1, water requirements/ habitat, 2 diet and 3 aggression levels.

Puffers and Mono are brackish fish. Fronts are from lake Tanganyika. Mbuna are from Lake Malawi

Diet: If you feed the Mbuna foods like Blood worms more than once a month you run a huge risk of them developing Malawi bloat. They have very long intestines designed for low protein diets that are strictly vegetarian. Bloat usually kills a fish within a few days if not treated as soon as noticed. So, here's is the problem. You feed the Front a high protein diet it needs to grow and you run a huge risk with the lives of the other fish. You feed a low protein diet so the Mbuna do not get sick and your other fish grow but do not thrive.

Habitat: Mbuna need hard water with a high pH. A good pH level is 8.0-8.4. So, in order for them to thrive they need a higher pH than the Mono or Puffer. They also need a LOT more rocks than you have now. Their habitat is rocky, so they live, breed and thrive in a rock filled tank. Without enough rocks in there, there is not enough caves for them to take cover and they will start to fight for territory. That brings us to the next issue and one you will see very shortly, aggression levels.

Mbuna are highly territorial, aggressive fish. They may not be showing it now if they are small but will very soon. This is esspecially true when adults at 4-6". A single dominant male can wipe out an entire tank in a day! I understand about how your daughters picked out the fish, and you don't want to upset them, I am a mom too. I know they will be upset if you take back the Mono, Puffer and Front, but they will be a lot more upset when those Mbuna start beating the crap out of these fish until they kill them! I am surprised no one has mentioned this to you yet.

You need to decide on what type of tank you want. These fish are not going to make it together in the long run. If you go with a Mbuna tank you will not be sorry! They are very active fish, constantly on the go (another reason Fronts are not good with them, they stress the Fronts). If you set up groups your daughters will be able to watch as the females mouth brood their eggs and you will find tiny fry all the time.

If you go with Mbuna, first thing is get more rock in the tank. Google Mbuna setups to see different setups. I will attach mine to give you an idea. Second is to set up groups. Unless you go with an all male tank you need some females. It is hard to pick males and females when small, but if you get 4 of each you should be OK. The best ratio is 1 male to 3-6 females per group. They are harem breeders, so the male will harass a single female to death. That is why you get more than one. A single male only per species, or you will get two that fight for the females.

These are what you have:
Picture #2 is a Albino Zebra. Hard to tell what kind from the picture.

#4 is an OB Red Zebra (Metriaclima estherae (OB)
Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

#5 looks like a Melanochromis johannii, keep an eye on it, they are highly aggressive fish!
Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

#6 A Red Zebra Metriaclima estherae
Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

#8 Electric Yellow Lab (Labidochromis caeruleus)
Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

#9 is a Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"
Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

Stay away from the following fish that are very common in fish stores. These are the most aggressive fish and will likely kill off the others when grown. The Kenyi, Bumble Bee and Auratus. I don't know why they are always in the stores! Probably people buy them, and bring them back a couple days later after they tore into the other fish.

Here is some reading to help you understand these issues I brought up.

Good luck!
African Cichlid Compatibility Issues

How To Setup a Rift Lake Aquarium

Mixed African Cichlids

Malawi Bloat

Reducing Aggression in Cichlids

Malawi Cichlids, Malawi Species Profiles, African Cichlids, Lake Malawi, Malawi Forum, Tanks, Articles, Books, Videos

Here is my Mbuna tank. I have Red Zebras, Yellow Labs, Acei, Ice Blues and Hongi. And a TON of fry everywhere!

[spoonman]

Thanks for all the information DizzCat. I think I can explain to my girls about the differences in the needs of the fish etc.... and how they will be the happiest. I wish the guy at the LFS had been so honest. I dont want any of the fish to be deprived of anything that they need to live long and healthy, happy lives. If that means taking them back to the LFS and getting more appropriate tank mates, then so be it. I guess we live and learn. One thing that I do have a problem with, is the fact that I put salt in the water for the puffer and the mono. He told me it would not harm the Mbuna. If I take the others back should I do massive water changes to get rid of the salt? Also, do you just feed the Mbuna flake food exclusively? Thanks for your frankness (is that a word?).

[JustOneMore20]

DizzCat, you are awesome! Welcome to AA! I was getting ready to make a long post like that, but you saved me some time.

Research is the key to success with aquariums! I can tell by your fish choices (or the kids) that you didn't do enough research.

Yes your kids will be sad when you take some fish back, but watching the fish kill each other or watching them die from lack of research is going to be sad too!

Please do what is right for the fish. Research diets, setups, and needs for these fish and choose 1 of the 3 types of fish you have and do what is best for those fish.

edit: Words of advice: Do not always trust the LFS workers...or even owners. So many of them are there for the money and not to help you or the fish. This is one aspect of fish keeping that makes me sad, but its reality. Spiralina or Veggie Flakes are good for Mbuna. That is what I used when I kept them.

[spoonman]

All of this is very difficult. Even on this site and others there are differing opinions on what should/can be kept together. I have alot of fish in my community tanks that people ask "how can you have those in the same tank". Like alot of people I think the store (since they specialize in fish and not just a generic pet store) know what they are talking about. Now (thanks to people like you) I am learning more. I will do what is best for these fish. I treat my fish the same as my dogs or birds or any other pet. They are part of the family and have a right to be happy and healthy. When they aren't it is a sad thing. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

[Sicklid]

Originally Posted by spoonman

Thanks for all the information DizzCat. I think I can explain to my girls about the differences in the needs of the fish etc.... and how they will be the happiest. I wish the guy at the LFS had been so honest. I dont want any of the fish to be deprived of anything that they need to live long and healthy, happy lives. If that means taking them back to the LFS and getting more appropriate tank mates, then so be it. I guess we live and learn. One thing that I do have a problem with, is the fact that I put salt in the water for the puffer and the mono. He told me it would not harm the Mbuna. If I take the others back should I do massive water changes to get rid of the salt? Also, do you just feed the Mbuna flake food exclusively? Thanks for your frankness (is that a word?).

Ok, ok, firstly the ONE piece of advice the "fish store guy" gave you that is correct is that the "salt" will not hurt the mbunas, they come from a "salty" lake... BUT, and this is a big but, it all depends on what kinds of salt we are talking about... I am not going to type a long report about different salts, as that is a searchable topic. Mbuna don't require "salinity", but "hardness" is a factor, usually only if your tapwater is very acidic. I am a firm beleiver in just doing frequent water changes to keep things constant (like your ph/kh/gh) with dechlorinated tap water to keep minerals from dissipating out of the water before you can add some back, which would lead to large swings/fluctuations in ph and dissolved solids, which is VERY BAD for aquarium fish... Much worse than keeping them in water with parameters that are not "just like lake malawi"...

There are plenty of home-brewed salt/baking soda recipies for malawi cichlids that you can research to mix up and simulate the water that they come from, but these mixes really should be determined more so by what your tap water already has in it. Test that first, and then add "salt" accordingly... AND SLOWLY, over time, no change should be immediate.

[InfernoST]

Originally Posted by Sicklid

Ok, ok, firstly the ONE piece of advice the "fish store guy" gave you that is correct is that the "salt" will not hurt the mbunas, they come from a "salty" lake... BUT, and this is a big but, it all depends on what kinds of salt we are talking about... I am not going to type a long report about different salts, as that is a searchable topic. Mbuna don't require "salinity", but "hardness" is a factor, usually only if your tapwater is very acidic. I am a firm beleiver in just doing frequent water changes to keep things constant (like your ph/kh/gh) with dechlorinated tap water to keep minerals from dissipating out of the water before you can add some back, which would lead to large swings/fluctuations in ph and dissolved solids, which is VERY BAD for aquarium fish... Much worse than keeping them in water with parameters that are not "just like lake malawi"...

There are plenty of home-brewed salt/baking soda recipies for malawi cichlids that you can research to mix up and simulate the water that they come from, but these mixes really should be determined more so by what your tap water already has in it. Test that first, and then add "salt" accordingly... AND SLOWLY, over time, no change should be immediate.

Sicklid
What color is that on your tank?

[Sicklid]

What do you mean, the background? It's black...

[DizzCat]

I add aquarium salt to my tank each water change, so they are fine. It helps with their slime coat, which helps them heal fast after they get into scrapes. My tap water is very soft, so I add a cichlid buffer too. I use Kent Lake Malawi Buffer, aquarium salt and Prime declor with each water change. It keeps my pH at a steady 8.2. It is more important to keep the pH levels steady than exact. Fluctuating pH is harmful to fish. So, get a test kit and some buffer mix and raise it slowly if needed. Before you do anything test your tap water first. If the pH is 7.8 or above you will not need to do anything.

I have found the best food is New Life Spectrum cichlid pellets. My fish grow very fast and the colors are so bright with it. It is recommended from most cichlid keepers too. With any flakes or pellets, just look at the ingredients and try to get some that has a low protein level, like 35% or lower. I feed mine the NLS pellets in the morning then give them flakes in the evening sometimes. The most important thing is to stay away from live or frozen foods. They LOVE stuff like Zucchini and cucumbers! Cut a piece and rubber band it to a rock to hold it down, or get a veggie clip that sticks on the side. They will munch on it till its nothing but skin.

Yeah, your girls will understand. I babysit a little guy who is 5 and he understands why I cannot get certain fish. If he wants me to get something we look it up online to see if it will work out. If not, he is like "oh well". They are smart little people! He even explained the difference between salt water and freshwater to his grandma one day in the pet store LOL.

I am very lucky! When I branched out to African Cichlids I found a guy in town on a forum who helped me set up my tank. He gave me my Red Zebras and helped my aqua-scape. My favorite LFS helped me with the buffers and compatibility. They really care about their fish and wont sell you just anything to make money. If you want a Mbuna, they make sure you have an African setup. Unfortunately this kind of store is rare. The other 2 LFS by me only care about making money.

I know its all confusing right now, but once you get it all straight it will be a non-issue later. You will do your water change like any other tank, just adding a teaspoon of buffer if needed. No biggie. The best way of getting Mbuna and knowing they will get along (of course, fish have different personalities) is to look up the fish you want and match aggression levels. Your Yellow Labs and Acei are mildly aggressive (compared to other mbuna) so try to match that.

Try not to impulse by. If you see one you like, write the name down, go home and look it up. You avoid trouble that way. Been there, done that! I still have trouble resisting the impulse buy urge!

This is a great profile site to look them up. Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum

[InfernoST]

I apologize I wanted to know Dizzcats backround, my boo boo.