DON, disolved organic nitrogen

[greenmaji]

What is a good way to remove this from the water?
skimming?
liverock?
just curious.. TIA

 

[malkore]

as in Dissolved Organic Compounds? skimming helps remove these.

anaerobic pockets of bacteria deep inside live rock can also break down nitrates, but macro algae in a fuge will be more efficient, in speed and in cost

 

[greenmaji]

Ive read that there is a theory that algae consumes NO3 and PO4 but in the process realises DON in order to propagate algae further down stream (say hair algae being most common in the display tank).
Section 2.9 Algae Scrubbers
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/aquaria/reefkeeper-faq/part1.html
There seems to be a insinuation that AC will help but there isnt any information about using LR or skimmers with Algae Scrubbers making me wonder "why are they trying to run one filtration type into the ground without any other filtration type to assist"; At least the berlin method also has the skimmer to help with filtration.. I realize Im opening a can of worms with this that was not apparent in the topic.. please forgive me..
Macro's being a very similar method to ATS just not quite as active or aggressive.. Thanks for you input so far malkore.. maybe you will give me your opinion on experimental filtration techniques while your at it? I hope so.

*edit* I looked back to see when that usenet was arcived and it was in 1998.. that makes me wonder were ATS reasearch has gone in the last seven years I cant seem to find any more information.. I have read Dynamic Aquaria, building Ecosystems (an ecology text that is the sorce for ATS information) and I cant seem to find were people have actually tried somthing other then AC to help with the issue Im talking about (aside for one member of reefs.org.. maybe that will be were Ill have to direct my questions ) *edit*

 

[Devilishturtles]

I've never heard of DON used exclusively before. Why would the algae release this, when all it needs in essence is light to prosper? I know its more complicated than this in real life, however that is the crux of photosynthesis...light. Without the light, nothing would be produced. Even when looking at the actual chemical reaction of photosynthesis, isn't it just producing C6H12O6, and 02? Carbohydrates(energy, or ATP) and oxygen. I'm trying to remember this from bio class. Lol.

 

[greenmaji]

I've never heard of DON used exclusively before. Why would the algae release this, when all it needs in essence is light to prosper? I know its more complicated than this in real life, however that is the crux of photosynthesis...light. Without the light, nothing would be produced. Even when looking at the actual chemical reaction of photosynthesis, isn't it just producing C6H12O6, and 02? Carbohydrates(energy, or ATP) and oxygen. I'm trying to remember this from bio class. Lol.

It seems that we both had a series of very similar lectures in bio. class..
Mine being 15 years ago though so I might have to really streach for that one.. (I like how you remembered the molecular breakdown of mono charbohydrate.. uhh sugar LOL )

In reading the Dynamic Aquaria book there were a few over a dozen micro algae species that can make up the turf in the filter. They did not go into great detail on exactly what was going on on a cellular level (though I wouldnt be suppressed if they summarized it with the pictures/drawings of them 8O, the book is a thick headed read by the way referencing two important works almost in there entirety it seemed :?

 

[HoopsGuru]

I think you are at a standstill on ATS information because it has been largely bagged in hobbyist aquaria. It is fairly cumbersome to set up with the necessary surge buckets, etc. and the yellowing effect on the water often requires heavy use of carbon or more likely a skimmer (which negates the reason for setting up the ATS as a "natural" method of filtration. For the average hobbyist, a simple refugium provides most of the same benefits (nutrient export, plankton production, etc.) with more stable algaes (chaeto, gracilaria, etc.). A hybrid of the ATS system, the Ecosystem method (or Feng method) hit the scene a few years ago, but to my knowledge has not taken a foothold either.

I found a few anecdotal threads on a Google search that mentioned that too infrequent harvesting of the hair algae in ATS systems could have been a reason for the increase in DON....but nothing scientific in nature.

 

[greenmaji]

From reading the book the locations of natural turf algae would be in costal areas the same as the surf that does the natural protein skimming.. isnt there a chance thats how its suppose to be..

*edit* If you couldnt tell.. I think skimming is a "natural" filtration method as well *edit*

 

[greenmaji]

At its simplest I dont personaly think the ATS is all that cumbersom to build, even though there currently isnt any commersial versions of it available, legal reasons...
The Ecosystem method seems to be a poorly designed system in the first place IMO..
If skimming is the best subfiltration then that would be the answer to my question. Thanks..

 

[dskidmore]

I don't like generic terms, what compounds are we talking about exactly? Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate all get absorbed by plants to make up the plant matter, a plant isn't going to release anything that isn't benificial to it. So we're either talking algae spoors, or (I forget the technical name) one of those compunds designed to poison other species of plants and give the origninating species an advantage.

If we're talking spoors, we want those to exist and settle somewhere to continue the algae scrubbing. If we're talking about those other compounds, I'd say skimming, carbon, and water changes are all valid options for removal, but it's not a big deal if you're not trying to grow more than one species.

 

[greenmaji]

The term is used in this article, I dont particularly like the vagness of the term either but they are asuming that there is a untestable form of N that is in the water from what I can understand. And some asume its the yellowing effect.
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/aquaria/reefkeeper-faq/part1.html
section 2.9

 

[Devilishturtles]

Here is a great site that goes into detail the good and bad about DOC. What they say about DON is that it is simply is not around in natural reef aquaria.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.php

"Organics also are often measured in terms of their nitrogen content, such as dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) and particulate organic nitrogen (PON). The same is true for phosphorus, using the terms dissolved organic phosphorus (DOP) and particulate organic phosphorus (POP). Table 2 shows the relative concentrations of C, N, and P in dissolved organic material. In dissolved organic material, nitrogen is about ten-fold less prevalent than carbon, and phosphorus is several hundred-fold lower in concentration than carbon."

And not to discount any beneficial or detrimental effects on ATS (I simply don't know enough about it to give a good opinion), but if DON is ten fold less prevelant than Carbon, I can see some huge issues in having it around in home aquaria.

The other site you listed mentioned that ATS is so good for releasing these DON particles into the water (somehow, but that still, from a biological standpoint doesn't make any sense to me) then these would cause huge problems in an aquarium. The website also goes on to list numerous detriments of DO's in water.

I thought it was an interesting artical to pass along to all interested. It shown some light on a few things for me.

 

[dskidmore]

Couldn't it be a carbonic compound that yellows the water? (For argument's sake.)

 

[HoopsGuru]

From reading the book the locations of natural turf algae would be in costal areas the same as the surf that does the natural protein skimming.. isnt there a chance thats how its suppose to be..

If I am reading your thoughts correctly, you believe aquaria should model these natural processes. It's a thought, but the problem often lies in that aquariums are not similar to nature. The oceans are food rich and nutrient poor (due to the great exchange of water volume) while our tanks are the opposite.

In regards to setting up an ATS, in speaking for the average hobbyist....having a surge system is not the easiest or most feasible to fit under a stand. Surge systems also can be quite noisy and splash a bit. A sump with a refugium/skimmer, etc. is often much easier with similar results. My own use of refugia has also never produced the yellowing effect that seems to go along with the ATS system.

 

[greenmaji]

If I am reading your thoughts correctly, you believe aquaria should model these natural processes.

Not exactly.. It was a thought about how coastal waters were naturally filtered in nature for natures sake ie. maybe thats why they evolved together.. to benefit from eachother... Im also quite ceratin that there is consideralbe bacterial filtration in the same areas in nature..

It's a thought, but the problem often lies in that aquariums are not similar to nature. The oceans are food rich and nutrient poor (due to the great exchange of water volume) while our tanks are the opposite.

Its my understanding that reef areas are also more food rich, nutrient poor and full of life then the rest of the ocean for a reason... that reason being those areas are being cleaned by more then open water.. the water coming back from the surf areas is O2 saturated and extremely nutrient poor, because of natural processes.. allowing much more concentration of life in a small area.. much more so then is possible in our tanks.

In regards to setting up an ATS, in speaking for the average hobbyist....having a surge system is not the easiest or most feasible to fit under a stand. Surge systems also can be quite noisy and splash a bit.

I am not certian if your post is to me or to everyone else reading this?

There are many ways to design a ATS and ways to implement it.. the large serge system with pumps and electronics and such is one of them.. or wave buckets... There are ATS designs that are small enough to fit into the canopy (and are in the canopy) so size isnt really the large factor I think you think it is..
but there is going to be some noise regardless (from whatever method is used to create the wave motion of the water)... so your right about that..

A sump with a refugium/skimmer, etc. is often much easier with similar results. My own use of refugia has also never produced the yellowing effect that seems to go along with the ATS system.

Again.. I dont know if this is directed at me or everyone else reading this..
I understand the refugium.. It requires that the system maintains enough nutrients to keep the Macro algae alive hence it requires more nutrients to be present in the water to operate then ATS. Not saying that I would discourage anyone from using a refugium, My goal is to have less nutrients then what is nessisary to keep Macro algae alive in the system.. making a refugium inoperable..

 

[dskidmore]

I understand the refugium.. It requires that the system maintains enough nutrients to keep the Macro algae alive hence it requires more nutrients to be present in the water to operate then ATS. Not saying that I would discourage anyone from using a refugium, My goal is to have less nutrients then what is nessisary to keep Macro algae alive in the system.. making a refugium inoperable..

I thought the point of a refugium is to remove nutrients from the system?

 

[greenmaji]

I understand the refugium.. It requires that the system maintains enough nutrients to keep the Macro algae alive hence it requires more nutrients to be present in the water to operate then ATS. Not saying that I would discourage anyone from using a refugium, My goal is to have less nutrients then what is nessisary to keep Macro algae alive in the system.. making a refugium inoperable..

I thought the point of a refugium is to remove nutrients from the system?

It does remove nutrients from the system.. by growing Macro algae and then harvesting it, your removing the nutrients that are bound up in the Macro alage. But a you need enought nutrients for the Macro to grow for this to work. Micro algae with intense lighting magnified by the flash from the waves can grow when nutrients are very poor, unlike Maco algae..