New Baby Tang for my Nano

[Gregcoyote]

These misconceptions are believed by many due to the disinformation provided. Opinion is not fact. Fact is backed up by scientific evidence. The OP was being very proactive in growing out his tang in a small tank, and was met with "beware the stunted growth" which is absolute myth. There is no need to get defensive, there's nothing personal in my responses. I'm simply separating fact from fiction so the OP can choose their way forward with the best information available.

It's just that you're wrong. And your style of writing did give offense. I can show you a 10 year old yellow tang that is just 3" instead of 10" as a result of growing up in a small tank. In fact, as a diver, I have seen full grown yellow tangs and you will never see them this big in most aquariums. Some fish will grow to full size, some won't.

Here is a more intelligent discussion of the topic,
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=783630

 

[MikeYQM]

Well, firstly, a small fish is not necessarily an unhealthy fish. Secondly, any number of factors could have led that tang to be undersized - diet, genetics etc.

On the first note, can't we flip to the other side of the coin and say, maybe our tangs are "better" being smaller? Larger tanks often have higher fish loads, causing competition, and there's no shortage of that in the wild. IF captive fish are truly smaller as a rule, purely due to environmental reasons, couldn't it simply be due to lesser competition?

Fish are known to grow larger due to status within a hierarchy, especially with schooling fish. If you remove the dominant fish from a school, another will grow to & take its place - even in adulthood. Just because the rest of the school is smaller, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

It's equally possible that IF stunted growth in captive fish exists, it's simply because there's no need to grow any larger, and not an indication of anything wrong whatsoever. Judging by the 10 year captive age of your reference tang, it lived a "long" and healthy life despite its possible stunted growth and time spent in a small tank.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Well, firstly, a small fish is not necessarily an unhealthy fish. Secondly, any number of factors could have led that tang to be undersized - diet, genetics etc.

On the first note, can't we flip to the other side of the coin and say, maybe our tangs are "better" being smaller? Larger tanks often have higher fish loads, causing competition, and there's no shortage of that in the wild. IF captive fish are truly smaller as a rule, purely due to environmental reasons, couldn't it simply be due to lesser competition?

Fish are known to grow larger due to status within a hierarchy, especially with schooling fish. If you remove the dominant fish from a school, another will grow to & take its place - even in adulthood. Just because the rest of the school is smaller, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

It's equally possible that IF stunted growth in captive fish exists, it's simply because there's no need to grow any larger, and not an indication of anything wrong whatsoever. Judging by the 10 year captive age of your reference tang, it lived a "long" and healthy life despite its possible stunted growth and time spent in a small tank.

I agree with most of this, but the question was does housing the fish in too small an environment have an effect? The answer is yes. Tangs have a very thin slime coat and any stress can cause this coating to break down to disastrous effect. They are horizontal swimmers that cover miles of reef in a day, where as a clown fish occupies about a cubic meter of water. Food makes a difference for sure, but providing a proper environment is also as important.

While these small yellow tangs did live a long life, there is always the possibility of spinal issues as a result of stunted growth. And these tangs were in a 300 gallon system. The hippo tangs did not seem to act this way, they got big regardless of the tank sizing. In all cases the tangs were very well fed and fat.

 

[Nu-Nu the eel]

I agree with most of this, but the question was does housing the fish in too small an environment have an effect? The answer is yes. Tangs have a very thin slime coat and any stress can cause this coating to break down to disastrous effect. They are horizontal swimmers that cover miles of reef in a day, where as a clown fish occupies about a cubic meter of water. Food makes a difference for sure, but providing a proper environment is also as important.

Miles? Easily. I would estimate they swim 10 miles a day. I just went snorkeling here in hawaii an i saw a school of orange shoulder tangs swimming across the whole reef. Each one being about the size of a soccer ball. If you want to put a tang in a nano tank come and watch them in their natural habitat and you will start to think that they shouldnt even be in 500 gallon tanks much less a nano tank.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Miles? Easily. I would estimate they swim 10 miles a day. I just went snorkeling here in hawaii an i saw a school of orange shoulder tangs swimming across the whole reef. Each one being about the size of a soccer ball. If you want to put a tang in a nano tank come and watch them in their natural habitat and you will start to think that they shouldnt even be in 500 gallon tanks much less a nano tank.

That's where I'm coming from. Some fish barely budge, but tangs are different. I have six in my 300 gallon, most are over 10 years old, have never been sick and are super fat. They will never get to the size they grow naturally even though they are happy.

 

[MikeYQM]

It's highly probable that the miles tangs swim in the wild is out of necessity for grazing purposes, not for quality of life. By the "miles" argument, no tang should be in any aquarium ever. While the relative space needed by some fish can be approximated in captivity, even an 8' tank is only 0.001 of a nautical mile. A 4' tank (considered by many to be too small) is only .0006 of a mike difference.

Yes, there can be too small of a tank for ANY fish, but so many of the justifications are based on misconceptions. How small is too small? Every tank & every fish is different. Will a 1.5" tang survive in a 10" wide tank? Sure it will and there is no factual evidence to say otherwise. That tang COULD grow to be the biggest tang in captive history, there's no way to know.

And I'd like to know why you assumed your tang suffered from a compressed spine. Barring an autopsy, there's no way to validate that whatsoever. And even IF it did, it could easily be a symptom of the natural pathological or genetic defect that caused that to happen. There is absolutely no way of knowing that that tang would have turned out differently in a 1000 gal tank.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I did not say it had spinal problems in my case. You started this discussion by saying we call everyone morons. You are the one with the attitude. Nothing you have said makes any sense, so good day to you. Hope those that listen to you reflect on your advice when it goes wrong.

 

[MikeYQM]

I misread your post. But again, then is ZERO evidence in spinal issues in tangs resulting from stunted growth; partly because there is ZERO documented evidence of stunted growth, period.

 

[TheTodd]

There are a lot of things in life that there is not scientific proof for. I like to err on the side of caution. You could keep a large dog in a small box. Feed it, clean it and it would probably live. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. To me, the bottom line with the Tang debate is that the large majority of experienced aquarists agree with the 6' tank idea. People that disagree can absolutely do whatever they want. Deal with the consequences, if there are any, and consider yourself lucky if things go well. I agree with the original advice of getting it out of the little tank and into the 120 as soon as it grows a bit.

I have always heard that juvenile Tangs have a high mortality rate. I'd be more worried about that, regardless of tank size.

 

[MikeYQM]

I "argue" to point out misconceptions and myth, which this hobby is full of. Ill take peer reviewed science over hobbyist experience any day. Remember when the experienced guys said LEDs wouldn't grow coral? Or when carbon dosing was bad? Experience leads to opinion; opinion should NEVER be offered as fact.

 

[Jbaygurl78745]

Your tang is beautiful, so maybe if you were thinking about moving the triggers you should have before you got the new little guy. But that is your choice just watch his growth and move him asap. Beautiful fish enjoy him

 

[Psychocircus91]

I "argue" to point out misconceptions and myth, which this hobby is full of. Ill take peer reviewed science over hobbyist experience any day. Remember when the experienced guys said LEDs wouldn't grow coral? Or when carbon dosing was bad? Experience leads to opinion; opinion should NEVER be offered as fact.

Do you have any scientific backing saying that tangs fair well in smaller tanks? It goes both ways. There just isn't enough science to show it either way, but I think the logic that more swim space isn't better for an open water-swimming fish just does not make any sense.

 

[MacDracor]

To those who believe this forum has only mean people who call you names - go elsewhere.
Now, I've only skimmed since my last post (overnight it went from one late to five. Thanks mike) but I saw no one attack the OP or call names. The OP showed off a new fish and a few expressed concern over the situation. Once all information was presented, it seemed like the general concensus was "good on you! Way to plan ahead!"
As for Mike's "ZERO evidence" posts... Lets be honest here. There's no evidence that YOU like. Scientific studies of several species plus years of anecdotal evidence suggesting the same holds true for others is enough for most reasonable people to consider the possibility. You simply dismiss it outright and call all who would even think it "wrong" among other things.
Correct that the hobby is full of misconceptions.
Your LED example is a good one. For years, the only LED fixtures available were useless. They had led to many coral deaths. So people were reluctant to try the newer ones. Since then, people have been brave enough to try and results have been positive. Or bristle worms. I could (and have) written pages about these great little guys.
Comparing LED lights to tang tank sizes is ridiculous. The lights were due to past experiences being bad and people reluctant to try new things. Tangs... It's the opposite. For decades, they were kept in small tanks and they died quickly. It wasn't until people started keeping them in more appropriately sized tanks that we got to see how great they could be.
Your argument that you are simply trying to present complete information to the OP is equally silly. That's what we are all doing. The difference is this: we say "experience and some science leads us to believe that certain fish need large tanks to be healthy" whereas you counter with (obviously paraphrasing here) "nah, it'll be fine. They're idiots. Do whatever you want and the world will be sunshine and rainbows"
Lets all try to be civil. Wording really does matter. "That may not be the smartest idea" is a far cry from "you're stupid". Had this talk with my last girlfriend on an almost weekly basis.

 

[MikeYQM]

Getting far off topic here, but I have no problem with people sharing their personal experiences or opinions as such. I have a problem with people sharing those as FACT.

I've said nothing other that point out that statements clearly labelled as fact are not and tried to bring an open minded perspective. If something isn't fully proven, then there are other equally possible explanations and that is what I've shared. I did not state fact, nor did I claim as such unless directly indicated.

 

[melosu58]

We are getting far off base. I was going to delete mosts of the posts here but I only did the ones that were name calling. We need to get back to helping the OP and his problem. We all have our opinions and experiences and need to be able to post it as long as it stays on topic with the OP. This is not a thread to air out your differences State your opinion and experience and move on. Do not attack anyone elses opinion or experience. Leave it to the OP to digest and pick his route. Please help the OP out.

 

[TheTodd]

I think it's a great idea to start him in a small safe environment and introduce him to the big boys in the 125 when he is fat and healthy

I think that this post way back at the start is the way to go given the available options of a small tank and a more appropriate size tank (with Triggers).

I've never done Triggers, other than a Blue Throat (which are supposedly not as aggressive) and he was second to last, with all other fish his size or larger. I'd wonder what an appropriate size would be for adding the Tang down the road?

 

[Krocky12]

We are getting far off base. I was going to delete mosts of the posts here but I only did the ones that were name calling. We need to get back to helping the OP and his problem. We all have our opinions and experiences and need to be able to post it as long as it stays on topic with the OP. This is not a thread to air out your differences State your opinion and experience and move on. Do not attack anyone elses opinion or experience. Leave it to the OP to digest and pick his route. Please help the OP out.

See IMO the OP isn't having a problem. He's showing us that he will be moving it and I don't believe that it's a problem.

 

[willbratz]

I like ice cream with my cake.

 

[Krocky12]

I like ice cream with my cake.

Same it's very good that way

 

[MacDracor]

Indeed. I don't think there's really much of a problem for the OP at all anymore. In fact, I don't know that there was one to begin with. Lol