Water changes... out loud thoughts

[PB_Smith]

The same reason people would pay for chemi-pure products or even someone to come and maintain the tank for them. It is EASIER for them. Everyone will apply the KIS effect, it will just look different for each individual. Some are successful with it...others have glass cubes full of algae.

Yeah but, I live within 45 minutes of the store ReeferJames works at and there is a very high probability that his store gets ocean water from the exact same source as the 3 other stores I get water from.
If they can sell it for under .50 per gallon, no need to pay $1, is there?
The area his store is in automatically dictates that everything will be at least 25% more expensive simply because it is one of the more affluent area of Southern California.
Gotta stick it to the rich guy, right?

 

[Sniperhank]

But this is about water changes and how they impact out systems not a free market economy and the unseen hand of economics.

Keeping a tank successfully via water changes is directly impacted by the easiest way they can maintain the system. If you can keep it with only water changes one will do so. If one needs to dose 'element X' as it is depleted faster than water changes can keep up, one will find the easiest way to do it...see calcium reactors, kalk, BRS dosing supplies...the list goes on.
As this list goes on, the prices will then vary thanks to the before mentioned unseen hand and the consumer will then choose what works for them within their price range. If it was easy and cheap enough, would there be a larger community using the Zeovit systems? Possibly, though just an example.

 

[hackteck]

i position my powerheads that it blows over my sand bed a little and blows up detritis so my filter socks can catch it without disturbing my sandbed

 

[PB_Smith]

But this is about water changes and how they impact out systems not a free market economy and the unseen hand of economics.

I was commenting on the fact that James said that 50% changes were the only way to "balance" elements in a tank if you don't dose additional stuff and that big water changes like that were too expensive.
They are only too expensive if you pay $1 a gallon that his example of $120 dollar per month for a 60 gallon indicates.
You don't pay a buck a gallon for your water, do you?

and frankly, knowing the area and other prices in So. Cal, there is no "unseen hand of economics" at work, just plain old price gouging.

 

[TheTodd]

Wanna see price gouging? Come out to the Palm Springs area. Easily 25-35% (sometimes 50%+) higher than OC fish prices. Water at one is $1.50 gallon. ?


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[Reefer James]

PB Smith, if you re-read my originally post I said you should do a sand vacuum like you said. I use several siphons you mentioned daily.

I never said you cannot run a thriving aquarium while disturbing the nutrients in the sand bed.

Compared to other 4 fish stores in the area our water is the cheapest. Sandbar charged $1.40, Oceans charged $1.30, Phil Your Aquarium Charges above $1, and we charge $1. Oceans uses Oceanic. Phil uses Ocean Pure. Sandbar and My store use Instant Ocean.

This bag costs us $48 for 200gal. We waste 2 gal for ever water. We replaced all stages of the filter several times a month to maintain 0 TDS. Charging a $1 for this is the cheapest in the area and the lowest TDS. I'd say that's a good deal if you do not want to invest in the RO system yourself.

I do not know of one store that uses Pacific Ocean water for resale? Is that a thing? That's not coral minded.

Where did I say 50% water changes are the only way to keep balance? like seriously where did I say that. $120 would be for 120 gallons of water

Also this is a thread about water changes. Can you be a contributing part of the thread instead of finding points you disagree with or find to cost too much.

If they can sell it for under .50 per gallon, no need to pay $1, is there?

This means for a 200gal box of IO salt for $48 we would make $52 before even consider wasted water, and replacing two membranes, and sediment, and media every month. Retail price for a retail store. You have to make more than even on your investments... We also use this salt for our store so technically we cannot even sell all 200g of salt. Have you thought this out? RO cost money... especially when you're producing 200g of water a day... come on man.

We are also the ONLY store locally with captive grown corals with entire frag racks full of encrusted pieces. We do not go to LA every week and re-sell corals. Our frags are captive frags from captive mother colonies. We also have legacy with named corals. Not everyone is into Tyree or Jason fox or named corals but retail customers expect a legacy and history behind some of their corals. By knowing the history and linage of the live animal you're buying you're expecting more.

The same can be said for race horses and show dogs. And many other animals.

I'm sorry you feel as we're trying to stick it to the rich man. You'd find we're considerably cheaper than the 3 surrounding stores in this zip code, and have higher quality live stock than any store along the 405 in orange county.

 

[melosu58]

Yeah but, I live within 45 minutes of the store ReeferJames works at and there is a very high probability that his store gets ocean water from the exact same source as the 3 other stores I get water from.
If they can sell it for under .50 per gallon, no need to pay $1, is there?
The area his store is in automatically dictates that everything will be at least 25% more expensive simply because it is one of the more affluent area of Southern California.
Gotta stick it to the rich guy, right?

Here in Richmond Va. I pay a dollar a gallon if I buy salt water. Most times I make it but some times I buy it also. Something to think about, maybe the store that sells it for 50 cents is taking a loss on the SW so to draw people in for the livestock. I knew a place here that did that. He claimed he made up the loss with the higher priced corals and fish.

 

[PB_Smith]

Lets assume the main reason we’re doing water changes is because we do not want to dose elements and know by doing a water change we are taking out water with low ppm and adding in higher ppm of certain elements water. Removing 380ppm calcium, and adding 500ppm salt mix into the tank can restore levels on a smaller system. I’d have to say a water change of at least 50% would be necessary (with a good amount of hard coral) to get enough ca, mg, and kh ultimately. I mean it will do wonders towards keeping ionic balance and providing those minor & trace elements. In a 60g tank a 50% weekly water change is going to cost around $120 a month! DANG! Liquid dosing isn’t even that much and dry powder is even cheaper.

Well right there is where you said it.

and as far as no local stores using real ocean water, again you are incorrect.
this is just one local company and is the one who supplies the store I buy from;
Aquarium Salt Water | Real Ocean Saltwater | Commercial Saltwater | Buy Saltwater
and there are others. I also e-mailed and asked for a listing of all the stores in OC that carry their water. will share that info when it arrives if you like.
Here is the analysis of the water;
http://www.catalinawater.com/Report.html

Frankly a retail store mixing their own water for resale is kinda costly and inefficient whenever there are wholesalers that could supply you with perfectly good water at a fraction of what it costs you to mix your own.

Where I get my water they go through about 1500 gallons a week of salt water. No idea how much RO/DI water they go through.
You are not the only store in O.C. with quality captive grown corals.
I can think of a few immediately off the top of my head, most directly off the 405, hahaha.

 

[PB_Smith]

Here in Richmond Va. I pay a dollar a gallon if I buy salt water. Most times I make it but some times I buy it also. Something to think about, maybe the store that sells it for 50 cents is taking a loss on the SW so to draw people in for the livestock. I knew a place here that did that. He claimed he made up the loss with the higher priced corals and fish.

I don't doubt that it costs more in other locales, but in this area where James store is there is a supplier literally 25-30 miles away from him that sells water to a large majority of local stores in Southern Cal.
I'm only addressing James very definite and final proclamations concerning this stuff is all.

The store I go to very well may be selling water at or below cost, or it could be that they go through so much volume that they get a good price.
Either way I imagine it is still less costly than the route James says his store employs.

 

[Reefer James]

Like I said with mostly hard corals and relying on water changes alone without dosing you'd need to be doing large water changes to support growth rates. Truth... hard corals use elements to grow. I will stick by putting a number of around 50% on it unless you have a large water volume of at least 3 digits.... (Never said how often this would be necessary) I never said this was needed to keep the ionic balance. I did say it'd do wonders for it. Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about supplying elements :/

As for that catalina water that's cool for fish.I wonder if they make salt mix and they just do it all. Or do they literally just suck it up? It seems like they're not really for the aquarium hobby and more for universities, medical laboratories, marine research facilities, and seafood distributors.

Red Sea is still Red Sea salt from the ocean. Pacific Ocean not ideal for corals like the red sea though

Elements in Catalina Salt

Mag may be at 1500+ ppm but calcium at .005ppm is kind of alarming to me... I don't know if this would be worth it. I'm sure it's there in trace but strontium is not even listed? Boron. Some important ions needed here...

Also I don't know of these stores along the 405 in orange county that have any captive grow outs. They may have captive corals but I don't think they're fragging and growing. I could be wrong. I know sandbar has a small operation but he's fragging wild caught corals and growing them out. I know oceans and Phil doesn't.

Tongs kind of does but those are mostly wild caught trays from the wholesale. grown at the wholesale. not their store.

Along the 5 you a lot more stores, especially closer to Anaheim. Amazing Aquariums comes to mind.. I bought fresh cut acros from Ali. From his display for full retail price, because he has great corals. I pay retail for legacy like that

Also the method my store employs? You mean keeping our water at 0 TDS for our inventory of live animals? We don't care about selling water. We use most of it with me doing maintenance anyway. We do offer it for a mere $1 a gallon for those customers of ours who like to spend $5 and $10 a week to complete their 10% water change without the hassle of mixing salt, changing filters, and everything else.

Sorry we don't use the cheap salt for our coral pool hahahahahahaha. Even our fish get pristine water at 1.024 SG. Pretty much all the other LFS run their fish tanks at 1.018 to save money on salt or because they think it helps with illness. No it makes it harder to acclimate fish to your tank with higher salinity :/ We also have BTA in our fish system who enjoy the coral ready water.

 

[PB_Smith]

Every time I have tested the water the calcium and other parameters are right on ~ about 420-430ppm, so not sure what to make of it. Maybe the conversion is off in their report or something or someone put the decimal point in the wrong position...LOL


not positive about where they all come from, but I have been in Tong's before when they were fragging corals they grew in store.
there is Coral Obsessions in HB, but I get the overall impression they are kinda sketchy,
and another one I found is ReefRaft in Garden Grove. They have corals rivaling what you have on offer in quality and price.


In reality in Southern California you can barely swing a dead cat without hitting a LFS or pet store and 1/2 of them sell corals and only 1/2 of them actually have nice ones.....LOL


as far as comparing "name branded" coral with AKC dogs or horses is just lame and silly. The only way to confirm such claims is via genetic analysis and when it comes to coral, who is going to go to that hassle except a biologist?
It is also lame because a brand name coral carries with it no extra guarantee of anything.
It will be just as subject to color change as any other coral.
Branding coral is nothing more than a sales ploy to add $$$ to the price, IMO.


Show of hands, how many members here "expect a legacy and history behind some of their corals"?


Said legacy and history is more than likely only determined by how good the salesperson is at delivering BS.

 

[Reefer James]

My dad owns the security company that does Tong's security system... They frag certain corals but get 90% from wholesale.

I can completely understand legacy corals are not for everyone. I personally just buy corals that look like they're going to have potential to color up. I'm not into the name game.

But as far as confirming I can give you Steve Tyree's phone number or Jason Fox and they'd be more than happy to authenticate my store as a reputable dealer. You can also google "Coral Collection Bubble Tips". Have you heard of the cc Super Nova or cc Inferno? It's a pretty popular item online..

Anyway you may not be one but the high rollers I work with want to buy named corals with specific names. Then there's people perhaps like you (and me?) who are not too into the name game. But I can assure you members on these forums do expect a legacy behind certain corals. I'd encourage you to make a thread to open the discussion.

I guess when you walk into a store and they only have 5 Leptos and are selling them as Jason Fox it's harder to believe. But when you're looking at 36 of them next to another 5grand in coral on just one rack you may believe the dealer is more legit than other.

 

[PB_Smith]

My dad owns the security company that does Tong's security system... They frag certain corals but get 90% from wholesale.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you had such an intimate relationship with Tong's and know their business inside and out.

But as far as confirming I can give you Steve Tyree's phone number or Jason Fox and they'd be more than happy to authenticate my store as a reputable dealer. You can also google "Coral Collection Bubble Tips". Have you heard of the cc Super Nova or cc Inferno? It's a pretty popular item online..

LOL...LOL...LOL
Seriously dude, you know idiotic and ludicrous the whole idea of "name branding" coral is?
Dogs and horses may have pedigrees, but they are not "branded" with some fools name.
How do those guys protect against people cranking out knock-offs. I'll bet there is a coral farm in some poor Asian country where 6 year olds slave away all day cutting frags and making sure they look just right so they can be sold as a ""Tyree" or "Fox" branded coral.
I'll bet it's giving the Gucci counterfeiters a real battle for the black-market share.

I've browsed the site. Not calling into question the stores reputation at all, it actually has a rather stellar reputation.

 

[Brookster123]

Reefer James, you sir are magnesium... no shortage of flint blocks here.. not quite sure how dire the situation is though...
Disclaimer: probably a compliment though I can't add much to the convo. It is great reading.
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[PB_Smith]

Reefer James, you sir are magnesium... no shortage of flint blocks here.. not quite sure how dire the situation is though...
Disclaimer: probably a compliment though I can't add much to the convo. It is great reading.
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[SeanMonster]

RJ, just curious about the salt price you specify. I use the same salt as your store and I just had a 200 gallon box shipped to my door in NYS (arrived today actually) and I paid $49.99 for it from Drs. Foster and Smith. Don't shops get a better price than the individual or is that one of those items that everyone pays the same? Truly I am just curious because I have only dealt with it from the private user side.


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