How do you judge an LFS?

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librarygirl

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Hi everyone,

I'm currently fishless cycling but I'm trying to think ahead to where I'll get my fish when/if the time comes. How do you judge a trustworthy LFS? I don't want to spend all this time cycling my tank just to introduce diseases from a substandard LFS.

I live in a small state (er, the smallest lol) so I don't have a large number of options for LFS. I have visited 5 so far, and here are my findings:

Place 1: Local LFS, non-chain store. They had about 10 FW tanks and they seem to QT their fish (some were marked not for sale yet). Most of their fish looked good and the tanks were clear, I didn't notice any obvious diseases or issues. However in one tank there was a dead fish being eaten by others (it had a large hole in its gut) and the worker didn't seem too concerned with removing it or perhaps didn't know about it (he was busy feeding the corals). In two other tanks, it seemed like there were dead fish too, but it could be the fish were just not moving. One was a large catfish of some sort just laying at the bottom, other fish were bumping it with their noses and it wasn't moving. In another tank a group of fish (again maybe smaller catfish, couldn't tell) was lodged under a cave, I saw one that looked upside down but it was hard to tell. So at least 1 dead fish, possibly more.

Place 2: Local LFS, non-chain store. This one was obvious as a bad store. One whole tank had ich and I didn't see anything about it being in QT or not for sale. A whole tank of angels were in the top corner, not moving and gasping. Other fish were gasping too and the worker was giving horrid advice to a mother and her kids about goldfish. So I've ruled that one out (pretty obvious lol)

Place 3: Local LFS, non-chain store. The fish looked OK, didn't see any obvious sign of disease, but the tanks were a bit murky for the most part, I felt they could have been clearer. The owner told me my tank wouldn't cycle fishless and to buy a few "insignificant fish" to put in there to cycle it.

Place 4: PetSmart. Their tanks on the whole look good. I did spot a dead fish in one once (and told the worker who didn't' seem to care) but for the amount of tanks they have they look good and didn't see any noticeable sign of disease.

Place 5: PetCo. This one is a new one near me which opened up not long ago. Their tanks looked very good and the worker even shook his head when I talked to him about the advice PetSmart gave me. They don't seem to have a large selection though. I went to another PetCo near where I worked and they have more tanks and they look OK but I can't tell for sure.

So....how do you know (or do you ever) whether the fish you are buying are safe? Place 3 is the only one so far that has one of the fish I definitely want (Galaxy Rasbora) but not sure I would feel comfortable buying their fish given what I saw.

And then there are members here who sell fish who have gotten great reviews. Again though they may not have the fish I want to get. There's also buying online from a large company but I'm not sure I would trust them either if I can't see what I'm getting and can't read other's reviews on them.

So...any advice on what to do? Is there a way to be sure? Or is it just a gamble? Should I set up a QT tank and do that to be 100% safe?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just concerned about introducing nasties. :)
 
Last statement was the best - a quarantine tank of your own is the only safeguard. Paid for this mistake with Ich out break when I was using 10 gal quarantine for another purpose and skipped this step. LOL - do not skip quarantine stage. Cost effective over the long run and frustrating when you have a situation you know you could have avoided. Bought a fish from a local fish store (Which I still support) and contaminated a 37 gal aquarium with Ich from a single fish purpose. Had to move the entire tank population to quarantine and do aggressive water changes ad substrate cleaning in 37 gal tank to rid myself of the problem. Could easily have been avoided by quarantine procedure. Point is - you never really can tell if your individual purchase will have a problem or not. If I can not quarantine new fish - I do not purchase.
 
Common sense and luck are your only friends if a QT is not an option.

First, as you said, buying from a reputable seller like other AA members (Severum Mama and HN1 are my pet store) is always your best bet. If a lfs or chain is your only option, try to visit them over a period of time so you can get a feel for the well being and the care they show their fish. If you have a lfs that actually QT's their fish that's great, but chances are they're not QT'ing them for a long enough period to guarantee anything. A lfs near me has tanks with QT stickers on them, but they're only quarantined when they arrive sick...not as a general rule.

There's different views on initially stocking your tank. Some people QT, but I believe most view an unstocked, empty tank as a quarantine tank in itself. I'm also not sure many of us have the patience to cycle your main tank, then set up a second tank and keep your new fish in there for 2-3 weeks. Also, unless you took the time to fishless cycle a second tank...you'll basically be doing a fish-in cycle for 14-21 days defeating the purpose of cycling your main tank.

Personally, I stocked my DT initially...but now that I have residents in there, all new fish get a 2-3 week private vacation in their own tank before meeting the others. Unless it comes from Severum Mama...her fish get acclimated and go right on into the tank, bag water and all :)
 
Hi everyone,


Place 1: Local LFS, non-chain store. They had about 10 FW tanks and they seem to QT their fish (some were marked not for sale yet). Most of their fish looked good and the tanks were clear, I didn't notice any obvious diseases or issues. However in one tank there was a dead fish being eaten by others (it had a large hole in its gut) and the worker didn't seem too concerned with removing it or perhaps didn't know about it (he was busy feeding the corals). In two other tanks, it seemed like there were dead fish too, but it could be the fish were just not moving. One was a large catfish of some sort just laying at the bottom, other fish were bumping it with their noses and it wasn't moving. In another tank a group of fish (again maybe smaller catfish, couldn't tell) was lodged under a cave, I saw one that looked upside down but it was hard to tell. So at least 1 dead fish, possibly more.

Place 5: PetCo. This one is a new one near me which opened up not long ago. Their tanks looked very good and the worker even shook his head when I talked to him about the advice PetSmart gave me. They don't seem to have a large selection though. I went to another PetCo near where I worked and they have more tanks and they look OK but I can't tell for sure.

Or is it just a gamble? Should I set up a QT tank and do that to be 100% safe?

Looks like your've done your homework on this one!

I'd say Place 1 and Place 5 are your better options based on your descriptions for fish and set up a QT tank. That is really the main way of ensuring your putting good stock in your main tank.

Good luck!
 
I agree that the 1st & 5th places sound like your best choice and as far as a QT right now, don't worry since your freshly cycled tank will be just like a QT. As you add fish down the road, a QT is a good idea. Just have a backup filter (running on your DT) ready to instant cycle a QT when you need it.
 
My wife doubted the power of the qt. Disease hasn't been a problem but the pond snails we got in it sold her. Ironically she kind of likes them so we left them be, but still.. Heh
 
every place has pro's and cons...Some people buy fish Online from SUCH AND SUCH who is only a HUGE name big seller of Ultra clean never diseased fish..blah blah..Did you see the guppy mill that fish came out of .....NO ...Enough said...Petsmart did get me once..I bought some plants that had snail eggs in them...needless to say that went well...I have a blood parrot I bought at walmart...just be careful and look at the fish you are buying not all employees know much more than to feed the fish..I live in SC. our local petco will let the tanks get horribly dirty...Those tanks use a "community" filter system which you can tell from the tanks must be clogged and over worked. Petsmart Petco where ever I would just keep the fish QT for a few days......I have been lucky and ever introduced ICH into my tank or any disease, and as I say I have fish from petsmart petco and walmart..yes..I know...and I know the whole Blood Parrot stigma but I really like mine..He almost seems to know me..He follows me and just watches me constantly as though he knows me...Maybe he knows I always feed him? who knows but they are odd personality fish...point is..Either hope in luck or try the QT.
I will say our local petsmart does seem to have cleaner and healthier fish than our petco..
 
Thanks for the insights so far, very helpful!

So....either QT first or take a chance lol Given my tank is empty yes it could be the QT if something happens but my luck I'd get some horrid disease and I'd ned to sterlize everything. lol I do have two filters on my DT, so I could I guess get a small setup for a QT but yeah it would be hard cycling all this time and then not having the fish go into the DT.

I'd like to buy from Severum Mama, just for the feedback she gets.....but I'd need to only stock my tank from her list, which means at least one of the fish I really want aren't options and neither would be the ADFs that I'm seriously considering (although I've only seen them in two places so far: PetSmart - saw them once and they were gone the next day, haven't seen them since, and Place #3 on my list).

Do people generally pick whatever fish they want for their tanks and then find sources to buy them from, or if you have a trusted source do you base your stocking on what the LFS has?

So, I still have no idea. Luckily I probably have a lot of time to think about it since I still don't have nitrItes after two weeks lol
 
libraygirl said:
Thanks for the insights so far, very helpful!

So....either QT first or take a chance lol Given my tank is empty yes it could be the QT if something happens but my luck I'd get some horrid disease and I'd ned to sterlize everything. lol I do have two filters on my DT, so I could I guess get a small setup for a QT but yeah it would be hard cycling all this time and then not having the fish go into the DT.

I'd like to buy from Severum Mama, just for the feedback she gets.....but I'd need to only stock my tank from her list, which means at least one of the fish I really want aren't options and neither would be the ADFs that I'm seriously considering (although I've only seen them in two places so far: PetSmart - saw them once and they were gone the next day, haven't seen them since, and Place #3 on my list).

Do people generally pick whatever fish they want for their tanks and then find sources to buy them from, or if you have a trusted source do you base your stocking on what the LFS has?

So, I still have no idea. Luckily I probably have a lot of time to think about it since I still don't have nitrItes after two weeks lol

More important that your livestock will get along with each other - I rarely special order fish (though strangely I will plants). I usually stick to species in my dealers tank. If you need something particular - I ask if dealer can stock for me and at what price - then compare online. Some local dealers get their stock from local breeders and may simply have limited stock.
 
First things first, great job on the researching and cycling! :)

As stated a QT tank is almost an essential, with the one exception (IMHO) being full stocking after fishless cycling. Which I believe is your case. If you have planted your tank or intend to keep inverts at any point, it may rule that option out for you though. Some plants and most inverts do not tolerate meds or salt well at all.

Based on your list, I'd go for #1 if I went immediate and local. I've got a very soft spot in my heart for locally owned business though. ;)

Depending on the fish you are after we may have it even if it is not on our list. We've accumulated quite the collection of oddballs and have a few breeding projects going well. We get fish from a lot of sources and do lose entire batches from time to time. I hate it, but it happens. For that reason we QT all new fish for at least 3-4 weeks at a minimum and often longer. We're hobbyists though and most shops can't afford to do that. We can also special order a lot of stuff, but only if we can properly house them and the minimum order isn't silly. BUT, they would also have to be QTd and there'd be no gaurantee that they would be good to go even a month after the order. Again, I'd recommend shop #1 in your situation.

Our guppy mill is shown in detail on a fishroom build thread somewhere. lol.
 
I judge LFS based on how crowded the tanks are, the quality of their display tank(s) to prove that they are knowledgeable, and the healthiness of the livestock. My LFS has less clownfish in their 300g frag tank than petco has in a 30 gallon long.
 
Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders and will make a wise choice. I would say the best way to decide what fish you want is to first examine all the possibilities and then pick what you want to stock it with. After that figure what is available and cost effective. Then adjust accordingly. I haven't personally bought fish online but I hope to get a pair of apistos from Servum Mama and HN1 later this summer. Everyone on here raves about them and www.liveaquaria.com has good reviews as well.
 
I've been warned against Petco by lots of people. I went to my local store and the tanks were spotless, but i did see a few dead fish. I saw an angelfish I wanted so I went back a few days in a row to check on the fish. looked great at first, then started to stay in the back corner, after about a week it was floating dead in the tank. Decided not to buy anything from Petco. I'm not so sure the fish get sick in the store, so the tanks might look fantastic. What I've heard is that the large hatcheries that supply them don't or can't control disease in their tanks.
I would suggest #1. Just go in every once in a while during your cycling and check out the fish. If they have a tank full of fish one day, and the next day only a few remain it's obvious it crashed. You might catch some things before they "clean it up" (like ick) and get an honest picture of the quality of fish and the care they receive. Try to find out where they get their fish from. Most of my LFS buy from local breeders, which means the fish are born and raised in water from the same source as mine--makes acclimation easier.

P.S. if store #3 guy doesn't know what a fishless cycle is he's a moron-wouldn't buy a fish there.
 
Most likely every place will have people working there who are fairly ignorant. As far as petsmarts and petcos go it really depends on who is working there. Sometimes whether they are good or not can fluctuate.
 
Thanks everyone! Since I"m still not even sure what I'm going to stock the tank with (I have some rough ideas but haven't posted yet b/c I'm waiting to see if my tank shows significant signs of being in the cycling process-- I dont' want to jinx it by preparing too much ;)), I'll probably just keep visiting some of the more viable options on my list and get a feel for what their fish are like on different visits and start talking to the people who work there and find out where they get their fish from, if they QT and for how long, and if there is anything they can get that I might want if they don't have it.

The first few fish I got when I set up my first small tank were from PetSmart (even though their advice was horrid and told me to "run" my tank for a week and then sold me fish) and as far as I can tell nothing was wrong with them. They died a month later, all overnight, due to something I did (still not sure what that was, my best guess was PH shock after a large water change). I frequent this PetSmart a lot (it's 5 mins from me) and I always look at their fish when I go in there and other than a dead fish once or twice (and a couple of occassions with fish gasping) I've never seen any other significant signs of illness or disease. So I may keep them open as an option as well.

Then depending on how that works out, I'll look at H1N's list and see if I can get anything from there, based on their reviews.

I'm still torn as to whether to put everything in my DT or go through the hassle of a QT. I know my luck, though, and if I don't QT I may regret it. I have two filters on my current tank but I dont' know how/if that would work to immediately cycle a second one (or throw my DT into a mini-cycle) and then I wouldn't want to put the second filter back on my DT just in case so then I'd have to get a second new filter for my DT, right? Also I don't have much room for another small tank, not sure where I would put it given how heavy they get with water, I'm low on table space that's too high for my cat to get on.

I probably won't be able to stock everything at once (depending on what I want) unless whatever source(s) I choose have the fish I want and I can get them quickly. So I may just put the first batch in and then wait a while and if they look OK get a second batch and then maybe QT those. Still not sure.

Decisions, decisions. Thanks again everyone! :flowers:
 
How do you judge an LFS ? ? I don't judge, just observe the fish. Too many judge the LFS and their employees harshly. I'd like to see you standing there 8 hours a day dealing with impatient customers all while having to do maintenance on 100+ tanks. A little compassion goes a long way.

Fish are going to be susceptible to health issues in a LFS or anyplace else for that matter, even online. Regardless of how well you think your tank is, a health issue can break out anytime.

I go into a LFS with the attitude that it's up to me to determine the health of the fish and to choose wisely (not the employee). I spend a good 5 - 10 mins observing the fish for any visible signs. I'll even take the net from the employee and catch my own fish. Don't blame the LFS if you can't choose wisely.

Instead of a healthy fish I look for salvageable fish. The question you have to ask yourself, do you think you can bring this fish up to good health. If the answer is no then don't buy it.

Using this approach, I've had great success in buying fish from the LFS and many of the LFS aquatic employees really do try to do the best they can. I also inform the LFS employee on my discoveries so they learn something they can pass on to their customers. I say support your LFS.

The only fish I especially look out for are clown loaches, they are notorious for having ICK and I already know this going in so I buy the one I think I can save.

I've never had to quarantine fish because ultimately you should treat the whole tank anyway. I do acclimate my fish prior to putting them into the tank. I also use chemical free Microbe-Lift to treat the tank on a regular basis which takes care of any ICK problem or any other potential diseases lurking.

I found a single fish has a greater chance of recovery being around other fish. You might ask aren't you worried about spreading the goodwill (ICK) ? Nope because I treat the whole tank, never have any ICK outbreak.

We all know the LFS chain stores are not the idea place for supporting fish. Still they have the best prices and all your needs in one place. Some think the fish online somehow come from a safer and more healthy environment ? Seriously ? lol
 
I QT everything, including inverts. I don't ever introduce anything into my tank unless I've watched it for several weeks. Saltwater tanks don't have the option to dump a bunch of meds into a tank and cross their fingers. The meds that work are more harmful to the reef than the disease you're trying to eradicate. Watch your fish, don't make impulse buys and know your stuff. Research before you go to an LFS. The fish store employees are there to sell fish and fish product. They will sell you a sick fish with the meds to treat it. That's what they do for a living. It's the responsibility of the consumer to make good decisions. That's like getting mad at fast food chains for selling you unhealthy food. Know what to look for and then take the time to look for it.
 
Saltwater tanks don't have the option to dump a bunch of meds into a tank and cross their fingers.

I would agree with you on the meds, however, I'm not just throwing meds in and crossing my fingers. I have good experience using Microbe-Lift products, they are top of the line and they work fast. I have come to trust it and I also know it does not harm the fish. They have for both freshwater and saltwater.

I don't do saltwater yet so I don't know how their stuff works for that but I know people with saltwater tanks who swear by it. I'd have to test myself when I go saltwater. Also with a very expensive saltwater fish it's natural to be extra paranoid. Though you can QT a fish for as long as you want, it doesn't mean anything, they could die soon after for any apparent reason. Fish need other fish for health, and if the meds help all the fish including the sick one then that's even better.

Re: LFS selling a product, let me get this straight, you'll blindly trust joe blah's online fish shop and order fish online and have it shipped to you but you'll be untrusting of the LFS ? Okidoki I"ve heard enough. I know the LFS is a business, have no illusions about that but so is any online fish seller. That said, I've met some very good fish keepers at LFS's every where.
 
plecoking said:
Though you can QT a fish for as long as you want, it doesn't mean anything, they could die soon after for any apparent reason. Fish need other fish for health, and if the meds help all the fish including the sick one then that's even better.

I don't QT fish for the health of a quarantined fish when I buy. I do so to watch it for several weeks to prevent the introduction of disease into my system. If that fish is infected with something, it can be treated in the QT before it infects my tanks. Quite frankly, it might live or die, depends on how strong the fish is. But the point is, Ick, Brooklynella, marine velvet (whatever) never made it into my display tank. I don't have to bother with tearing down and treating my entire tank and I am out the cost of 1 fish, not 7. I didn't have to destroy my live rock with copper or worry about leaving my tank fallow for 6-8 weeks. I don't ever dump a bunch of unnecessary stuff into my tank and I don't treat fish unless they need it. Medicine stresses systems. Whether it's the human body or a fish. I've personally seen what meds do on a very basic cellular level and... Less is better.

Also, if the schtik about trusting retailers was directed at me...lol. I don't implicitly trust the advice of anyone. Online sellers are fish stores too. I advocate strong research and then using that research to form your own educated opinion. Quite frankly, the Internet and the world are full of people who want to expound on subjects they don't know anything about. Lots of folks regurgitate a lot of miss-information and bad advice likes it's the gospel. When you walk in an LFS to form your opinion, look around. Ask the employee if he has his own tanks and about their success. Watch the tanks, spend some time. But know what you're talking about. If you walk in to a store looking for a mandarin dragonet, know the look and behavior of a healthy specimen. Don't expect anyone who sells fish for a living to put your (or the fish) needs above their own. People who sell fish for a living expect to make a living selling fish. That equals the need for profit. I don't blame anyone for that. It's your responsibility to educate yourself.
 
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