I Can't Seem To Cure My Sick Fish

[abw0004]

Hello all,
So 5 weeks ago my fish started flashing. First it was one fish, then all of them. Here is what I have done so far:

For the first 10 days I treated the whole tank with Prazipro assuming they had flukes. In that time span I did one 50% water change and re-dosed. That didn't do anything so I stopped that and started using Seachem's Paraguard daily for 3 weeks. I did 50% water changes every single day without missing a single day. In the third week of treating with Paraguard I started feeding the fish food with Metroplex and Focus. After the third week I assumed Paraguard wasn't doing anything so I started doing with Metroplex in the water too along with continuing to feed them the medication. I have been doing that for 9 days now with a 50% water change every other day. Today I added Prazipro back to the water as I am getting extremely frustrated as my effort is in vain.

I also have Seachem's Cupramine and did not know if I should try dipping the fish to kill the flukes? I have heard Prazipro is becoming less effective. I have have 4 new fish in a quarantine tank that are showing the same symptoms so I didn't know if I should make my life easier and introduce them into the main tank as I am treating both tanks the same exact way anyways.

All fish are eating just fine. Normal poop. I don't see clamped gills either. The tank has been running for 2 years now so it is cycled and the parameters are fine.

 

[Delapool]

Is this the same tank that you thought might have gill flukes?

 

[abw0004]

Yes unfortunately. One of the fish my have one gill closed and the other enflamed. I put in Prazipro yesterday and did not know how long it would take to take effect. Do you think a Cupramine dip would be effective?

 

[Delapool]

Reading back I think it looks like paraguard and prazi have been tried.

I'm assuming that other things that might cause flashing like high nitrates, heavy metals, floating filter wool, flake food during feeding are all fine.

So onto the cupramine (at least it's a seachem product). I don't know on the dip. I'd go with the instructions.

 

[abw0004]

Yes that assumption is correct. On the bottle of Cupramine there isn't instructions for a dip so I was a little lost. Is there something I am missing that would cause flashing?

 

[Andy Sager]

There are a couple of things to consider: The fact that the fish are still flashing even after medications may be a sign that the issue is not disease but environmental. ( Is this a "normal" behavior for the fish species.) Another issue is that the fish are being medicated with the wrong medications. Another is that even tho you are doing these water changes, the water may still not be good ( environmental) so the first thing you need to do is test the water in the tank AND the source water to make sure it is not the problem.
You can treat the tank with PRIME to see if it might be metals in the water. PRIME will detoxify them and if this is the cause, make the fish stop flashing.

If this is not the problem, the next step would be to use a salt bath ( if the fish you have can handle a salt bath) to see if that stops the irritation.

If the salt does not work, I would consider using a med that contains both Malachite Green and Foramlyn ( Quick Cure or it's equivalent) which should eliminate any Flukes or external parasites.

If all this fails, I would consider taking one of your fish and using as high a powered magnifying glass as you can use, look carefully at the fish for external parasites that might be present. ( Gills and fins are the easiest areas to spot them on.) In some parasites, they produce a shell like substance so that they are not effected by external medications. If you still see parasites after all those meds, this may be the reason and isolation in a bare tank may be your best solution until the parasite advances to the next stage off the fish.

Hope this helps.

 

[abw0004]

Okay so here are the readings (API Freshwater Master Test Kit):

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
PH of tank: 7.0 (give or take 0.1)
PH of tap water: 7.6
High Range PH of tap: 7.8-8.0

What does the differing tank/tap water mean? I don't understand how that can differ.

I just did a 15 minute Cupramine dip for all of the fish except the Clown Pleco as I heard that kills them. Is that correct? They all did fine with it too. I added 3 drops to 2 gallons.

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay so here are the readings (API Freshwater Master Test Kit):

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
PH of tank: 7.0 (give or take 0.1)
PH of tap water: 7.6
High Range PH of tap: 7.8-8.0

What does the differing tank/tap water mean? I don't understand how that can differ.

I just did a 15 minute Cupramine dip for all of the fish except the Clown Pleco as I heard that kills them. Is that correct? They all did fine with it too. I added 3 drops to 2 gallons.

Your PH reading means you should be using your high range PH test as anything higher than 7.6 on the regular test will show as 7.6 just as anything lower than 7.4 will show as 7.4 on the high range test. So you should assume that your PH is 7.8 -8.0 for your tap water.
Different things can make the pH of the tank water lower with high nitrates being one of them. Time of day, drift wood, acidic fertilizers for plants and old water also on the list. Overfeeding also helps do that. What this does tell me is that you should be doing weekly water changes and not letting "good" readings alter that providing that the PH stays relatively stable throughout the day. Try taking a PH reading of your tank at different times of a single day( ie morning, afternoon, evening) to see if it changes much if at all.

What you don't know for sure is if the issue is possible heavy metals in the tap water. Just as those in Mich. found out, there are things in your water you may not be away of. If the cupramine dip doesn't end the flashing, I would do the PRIME test as I described earlier.

Hope this helps.

 

[abw0004]

Instead of Prime, I use Aqueon instead. Does that not suffice? I do in fact have driftwood as well as plants with Seachem Florish tabs.

Side note, do you know if plecos can be treated with Cupramine?

 

[Andy Sager]

Instead of Prime, I use Aqueon instead. Does that not suffice? I do in fact have driftwood as well as plants with Seachem Florish tabs.

Side note, do you know if plecos can be treated with Cupramine?

If the Aqueon product doesn't specifically say it detoxifies heavy metals then NO, it's not the same as using PRIME. PRIME detoxifies heavy metals amongst other things and not many single products on the market, to my knowledge, do what PRIME does.
As for the products in your tank, that would explain why the differing PHs so weekly water changes should help keep the PH more stable. ( smaller water changes more frequently can help keep water stable better than one large change less frequently. )

As for Plecos and copper, it is my understanding that all plecos are copper sensitive with some being more than others. I wouldn't use it on the pleco however, this can pose a problem if the problem is disease and your pleco can't be treated with a medication that works to solve your flashing problem. If this happens, I would advise removing the pleco to an empty tank as it can now be a carrier and let whatever issue pass before returning the fish to the main tank.

Hope this helps.

 

[abw0004]

Thank you for your help. From this link below explaining the product it does look like it does take out the metals as well. I will keep you updated with the tank.

Aqueon Water Conditioner, 16 oz. | Petco Store

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you for your help. From this link below explaining the product it does look like it does take out the metals as well. I will keep you updated with the tank.

Aqueon Water Conditioner, 16 oz. | Petco Store

Just so you understand, these products don't remove the metals, they detoxify them but they are still present. The point I was making was to see what exactly would solve your problem so if you have been using the Aqueon product all along, it is not the answer so hopefully the Copper dip stops the flashing. If it doesn't, you may want to try PRIME or really dig deeper into something in the tank causing the fish to flash. This may mean separating fish into different bare aquariums and using different meds to see if they stop or putting some into water NOT from your tap and seeing how they react. Sometimes it's a reaction to some decoration leeching something that does not show up in the tests we have available.
I know it's a pain but sometimes you need to take multiple steps to figure out what the cause is. I have just recently spent the better part of 6 months trying to figure out something in my hatchery that was killing my fry, not the parents, that turned out to be environmental to the building. Never in my wildest dreams would I have figured it out without doing multiple tests of different possibilities. You can't keep medicating without doing damage to the fish so you would be wise to keep this in mind before doing any more medicating. I'd concentrate on environmental issues first if the dip doesn't work.

 

[abw0004]

What in the environment would hurt the fish? There is nothing fake in my aquarium except a fake tree root thing. Everything else is real and appropriate to their actual habitat. All live plants as well. What was it for you?

 

[Andy Sager]

What in the environment would hurt the fish? There is nothing fake in my aquarium except a fake tree root thing. Everything else is real and appropriate to their actual habitat. All live plants as well. What was it for you?

Actually, there are plenty of things that are " real and appropriate to their actual habitat" that might be fine in the open system but not fine in a closed system of an aquarium. For example, Trees can absorb things that leech out over time and are either released into the air or diluted over thousands of gallons of water and filtered out by other things in their environment. Certain rocks are not suitable for a closed system yet are fine in the rivers. Some shales have oil in them but not all. I have shale rock that my fish have been breeding on for over 30 years so I don't worry but I would hesitate buying it today without knowing it had been in a tank with no fatalities to the fish. Lava rock, something I kept in all my marine tanks, comes in a couple of forms and some are known to have more phosphates in it than the other so other steps need to be taken to make it not an issue in a tank. So just because it looks or is natural, doesn't make it automatically safe.

In my case, it turned out that due to a circulation problem in the building, I am producing anhydrous ammonia ( a gas ) that is getting into the water via the exchange of gases when the bubbles in the tank burst at the surface. It's a very low amount, has no odor, not toxic to me at it's level but was preventing the fry from surviving. I researched the food I changed to and from, the water change schedule, the newness of some of the pairs, the genetics of the pairs, the water source ( I'm on a well), the air compressor, the hoses I use, the A/C unit to name a few things and nothing turned up to be the source until I got an air testing kit and found the answer. I believed it was the a/c causing it because that was where I was taking the test reading from but it turned out, the unit is a recirculating unit so if ammonia was in the air, the a/c would suck it in and blow it out. The final answer on the unit came from the manufacturer who stated that the unit did not use ammonia in it's coolant so there was no way for it to be the cause especially since it's 6' off the ground so not an animal issue inside the unit either. So you see, you need to eliminate a lot of things in the environment and that takes time. I also used bottled water to test and got no better results. That's how I knew the problem wasn't the water ( per say. ) So this is why I say you may be better off trying a fish or 2 in totally different water not from your regular water source and seeing if the fish stop flashing. It's kinda hard to believe that after all that medication and the fish still eating and otherwise doing fine that it's a disease more than something else. If after a week the fish in other water are still flashing, then you will need to dig much deeper because it's in the fish. But you won't know for sure until you take away things one at a time to see what it is. Flashing is not usually a sign of nothing. SOMETHING is making them do that and not everything that does is disease.

 

[abw0004]

I understand. Last question. Should I do another dip? If it is flukes I know I only killed the ones on the fish, not the eggs. I assume another will be needed in a day or so? Prazipro is still in the water

 

[Delapool]

Can you see anything on the gills? In one of your earlier threads it sounded like you could see something on them?

Other thought was is that dose on a dip calculated? Wondering where that was from.

 

[abw0004]

I don't believe so but I can't get the fish to sit still for longer than 1/2 of a second. One of the fish looks like they had/have an enflamed gill. I just assumed there were eggs still in the tank now

 

[Andy Sager]

I understand. Last question. Should I do another dip? If it is flukes I know I only killed the ones on the fish, not the eggs. I assume another will be needed in a day or so? Prazipro is still in the water

It is my understanding and experience that copper works best under prolonged exposure so doing dips with it may not work. Salt dips may work better as the change in osmotic pressure is more likely to kill the parasites that are present but not necessarily the eggs either. Treating the tank will have to be the next step and if you treat with copper, remove the pleco and other sensitive fish before doing so.
As for PraziPro, I have not used the product before however, after some quick research, it does have a shelf life and is subject to degradation more so than praziquantel powder however, Praziquantel powder will kill the flukes but not the eggs so you will be fighting an ongoing problem if you don't address the eggs. (I checked the Hikari website for Prazipro and it doesn't mention that is kills the eggs either.) What I saw was that If the Prazipro is not a slight pink color, it is not good. Make sure yours is showing that color or you may not actually be using a working medicine and so the results are not an accurate account. If it is showing pink and you are still having the problem and you are sure it's not your water, then you might want to go with something stronger like De-Los from NFP (Fish Medication - Products Page 1 towards the bottom of the page) as this will kill eggs and claims it will and that Praziquantal doesn't. ( I use this company and trust their statements more than product manufacturers. ) This could be why you are having relapses.

 

[abw0004]

Hello again,
So I am now worried that my German Blue Ram has the Hole in the Head disease. Originally I thought it was Ich spots, but they haven't dropped off. They are on his head, and he also had a lesion I think on his side. I have been continuing to treat all of the fish with Metroplex and Focus, which I thought also treated HITH. Thoughts?

 

[philipraposo198]

What substrate in the tank and how deep? Is it planted?