Natural Aquarium?

[TankGirl]

I meant to update this thread, but I forgot where I posted this! Here is the update, with the tank converted to a 10gal:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=48916&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

[greenmaji]

You have two posts on this topic and I dont know were to ask my quetion...LOL!

I am wondering if you have had any acification problems now that the tank has been "unpulged" for a while.. has the PH dropped signifigantly? Im assuming that if you kept the tank trimmed occationaly and removed the bulk of any dead plant material and you had suffecent buffering capacity that your tank would stike a long term balance.. Do you think you have reached a long term ballance yet? LOL! I know this is where you have doubts in the therory, but I am really curious if the tank hasnt acidified and (pH) crashed in this amount of time then will it ever?

 

[TankGirl]

No, since I moved the contents of the 5gal into the 10 gal we are just now starting to see the "balance" that I had achieved in the 5gal back in the early part of this year. I have sold some of the fish so there are really just about the same number of fish as there were in the 5 in spite of the fry that appear from time to time, which means it is taking a little longer to accumulate the debris on the substrate that is so important to the root feeding plants.

I think the tank will need to be established for a couple of years before acidification occurs enough to cause problems. My water is relatively hard and alkaline, so it will take longer than in some other setups. Keep in mind this is the same thing that happens in lots of tanks that have filtration when inadequate tank maintenance is performed.

 

[greenmaji]

Do you trimm the plants, filtered systems have denitrification acid.. That would be the difference between your system and a filtered system, you have a low bio-load and if the plants are trimed they are going to be completing the nitrogen cycle.. preventing and the removing the acid buidup the plants will absorb the ammonia that will be created by the rotting material.. I think your hard water would be needed for the other minor acids and what little denitrification acid that would be in the system..

 

[TankGirl]

I do not keep the plants trimmed in the "manicured" sense, just enough to prevent them from blocking light from other plants, dead leaf removal, etc. Am having some issues with thread algae, which I will get in all of my tanks if I do not remove phosphate (or in the CO2 injected tank I just dose nitrate) and since I can't really remove phosphate in the typical sense from this aquarium I am seeing what the Amano shrimp can do and waiting for a shift in the nutrient balance.

The tank is fully stocked - I would not add any more fish, but I meant to say that the livebearers have not completely overrun the tank, as can happen.

 

[greenmaji]

When your trimming the plants your removing material right?
I have read that execss Fe + PO4 or a imbalance of nutrients is a underlying cause.. Do you have Fe in your tapwater or rocks? The Amano shrimp are suppose to do good work against it though.. that and American-Flag fish and bristlenose pleco's

 

[TankGirl]

I have Eco-Complete substrate so there's the iron source. I have been so tempted to put one of my three fat flag fish in there, but there are just too many fry and the flags are so large - even one just won't work in this 10gal. It is also way too crowded for a BN, even one of my runts, so I'm just going to see what happens over time. I do not remove much material with pruning, not like in my other tanks where I remove gobs and gobs of plants. The growth is modest (other than the lily) so I just pick out dead leaves or single leaves that are shading.

 

[greenmaji]

Do you test the nutrients in the tank just to see whats going on? like NO3 and PO4?
I kind of figured you had the invert for the algae cleanup job.. You did say you were about at the top of your bio-load capasity.. I really hope it works out ie doesnt acidify on you.. that would be great.. Good Luck!

 

[TankGirl]

I don't think I'll permit the tank to go through anything drastic; I am watching it carefully.

There are the hardcore natural aquarists who prefer NO tech, meaning using sunlight to grow the plants and the plants to filter the water, no heaters even, like Rhonda Wilson, then you have Diana Walstad who contends that the water MUST be moving or the nutrients cannot find their way to the plants. She uses powerheads and filters, but no media. Both are well respected plant folks so the only thing I can do is try it my way (lo-tech, artificial lighting, heaters in winter, no filtration or water movement) and monitor the tank for any signs that this approach is having a deleterious effect.

If I determine that indeed the plants are starving, thus putting the fish in jeopardy, then that will indicate to me that the movement of the fish is not enough to bring nutrients to the plants, and I need to add water movement. If I do add water movement then that is not that far from full-blown filtration, because if you are using a canister or HOB for movement without media, what's the diff if you add media?

Someday I'll take the time to join Rhonda's site (naturalaquariums.com - my buddy has been begging me to join forever) and discuss these issues, too, but I'd like to see more of our members chime in on the natural aquarium issue here, too.

 

[greenmaji]

adding media will add unessisary denitrifing bacteria, since the plants are doing that job, and denitriying bacteria acids.. so I think you would be better off with a powerhead and no media if you added water movement..
Im considering ATS so water movement and alot of light out of the tank will be nessiary but traditional bacteral filtration (media) would have a negative effect on water quality..
Not exactly a natual aquarium that im aiming to do but a naturally powered filtation.. not really that diffent then bacterial except the algae is removed to remove toxins instead of left to continue converting toxins.. Hope this helps..
It would be intesting to see more hobbiest try this though.. I am all about overkill!..LOL

 

[czcz]

Leaving out the media still allows plants outcompete bacteria for ammonium. Perhaps it should be said there are natural aquariums, such as TankGirl's project, and plants as filtration, which still have some powered components.

2 cents: I moved my natural project to a 10g a few months ago, increased plant load and diversity, then added an HOB with no media (but lidless with some plants in the media compartment). The tank is going better. NO3 reads 10, pH has dropped to 7 (I have a layer of peat under the substrate and Hagen CO2), and the tank is pretty stable. I'm thinking of switching it to high light, since it isn't much more work and at this point I'm pretty sure I'll not get the emersed growth I hoped for without a cover (plexi dome?) to keep humidity high. Here's a pic -- during the day it gets sunlight from the south facing window.

I've since removed all biomedia from my 8g+10g system, which is a high current and light tank. Again, no issues and no ammonia reading. Plants look real good but growth has been faster, increasing maintenence.

JME: I'm becoming of the opinion that biomedia is as unnecessary as carbon for healthy, reasonably stocked, well planted tanks. Plants are amazing.

 

[Billsgate]

My 18.5 g is all natural!!!
I have the biggest natural tank!

The reason I let it go natural is because of the noise.......this tank is in my bedroom. After about a year after it was set up, I decided I'd unplug the filter one night because it was irritating me. I forgot I had unplugged it, and only saw it a week or so later. Decided to keep it that way
Only problem I have is hair algae. Apart from that near to 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites and 0 ammonia. I also have pretty low Bio-load in there: 2 otos, 2 killies and 1 paradise gourami.

I just added some elodea densa to this tank, to battle the hair algae, and the elodea is growing like mad. And the hair algae's gone down as well.

All my fish seem very happy and healthy, so I'm keeping it this way. Only time I turned the filter back on was when I removed some plants, and some gunk from the bottom had clouded the water. That was gone after an hour of filtration, so I turned it back off.

It's been natural for about 4 months I think.

 

[Billsgate]

Apparently my 28.5 g went natural somewhere during the past 3 weeks. Pump stopped working. Im not seeing any problems whatsoever.

So now all my tanks have no water flow. Apart from the 10g, which has a tiny bit from an ancient sponge filter.

*shrugs*

All my fish are fine and healthy. Why should I go out and buy me an expensive pump? My plants are doing all the biological filtration, along with the bacteria. :|

Here's some pics:

18.5g (sorry bout the bluryness... )

28.5g

 

[TankGirl]

They look great to me, Thomas! I think things will do great this way. Relax and enjoy the silence