pH is driving me nuts

[adeebm]

Ok, so I've been debating between RO and tap water in my amazon tank for ages now. My pH is 8.2 and VERY hard (10+dKH of kH and GH). My tank is around 60% RO and 40% tap at the moment, with an uncured driftwood stump and peat in the filter. The water is dark so there are lots of tannins, but no change in pH. Do I need a lower pH? I am getting mixed answers about this...

I have cardinal tetras and german blue rams. I hear they are both sensitive fish. Some people say they will waste away in such a high pH, some say the will do okay, and some say they will be fine. Which is it? *so confused*

I have an RO unit(meant for drinking water), so I could easily switch to pure RO and reconstitute it with Seachem buffers. It's not that expensive and lasts for like 3000 gallons lol.

I have heard that people even keep discus in a pH of 8.4, and others that say they die in a pH above 7 :/ I would greatly appreciate answers with reasoning, not just "don't mess with pH" or "they will die in that pH". Thanks guys, this problem is really driving me nuts...

Cheers

--Adeeb

 

[corrado33]

Something has got to be buffering your water. Figure out what it is and you can figure out how to fix it. What decor do you have in your tank? Rocks? Driftwood (obviously). My ph stayed around 8.2 for 3/4 of a year even after I added plants. Whenever the plants used up whatever was buffering my water at 8.2, the pH dropped to 7.2. Get your water tested for phosphates and get accurate kH readings.

 

[adeebm]

Yep, I've tested and my kH is 8dKH and GH is 11dKH or more(can't quite remember but it's atleast that much). No decor that could buffer up the water. From what I understand, the minerals that are buffering my tap to 8.2 will keep it ther until the buffer is overcome, and then crash. Thus my only choices are pure RO or pure Tap.

My question isn't really how to change the water, it's whether I need to change it. Will the fish I have be happy and healthy in this water? If not, then I will change it. I want the best for them <3

--Adeeb

 

[corrado33]

8dKH is a bit high, I keep my tank at 5dKH. 11 for GH isn't that bad, I shoot for 10. I don't know the specifics for your fish, but I'll look them up tomorrow, too lazy to do it now. For most fish anything under 25 to 30 for GH will be fine. (At least that's what my aquarium atlas says.) Usually only soft water fish (like discus I think) care that much about water hardness. In all honesty, you'll be fine. Like other people have said, stable pH is much better than "correct" pH.

 

[mattrox]

try a 80% - 20% mix......

 

[taylorodw]

Yep... dilute those. Theoretically... if you go 50/50 pure r/o and tap, your water should look like this:

pH 7.6, KH 4, GH 5.5.

Ultimately, the health of the fish, how it was bred (captive or wild caught? farm or tank?), and the age of the fish will affect water chemistry acclimation. So in cases like this, there is no definite answer. I think you are right to attempt to reduce the stress and increase your odds of success.

 

[adeebm]

Yep... dilute those. Theoretically... if you go 50/50 pure r/o and tap, your water should look like this:

pH 7.6, KH 4, GH 5.5.

That's where the problem is It would be nice if things worked like that, but it won't. The GH and KH values will be similar to what you said, but the pH will stay at 8.2. This is because the mix of buffers reaches equilibrium at a pH of 8.2 This means if the pH were to drop, or acid were to be added, or the tap water diluted, more OH- ions would form from the buffers to keep the pH at 8.2. The only way to change this is to overcome the buffer by neutralization with acid(titration), or to replace it with a different buffer. Neutralizing the buffer is a bad idea, because the pH would then change rapidly until a new buffer is dissolved in.

So like I said, as far as my pH, I have two choices. Keep a pH of 8.2 and use tap, or use pure RO with seachem buffers to set my own pH.

Using a 50%/50% mix will soften the water, which is preferred by the fish, but it won't change the pH.

--Adeeb

 

[corrado33]

Well it looks like you know what you have to do. In all honesty, you'd be fine where you are now, or with a 50 50 mix. Your fish will adapt. Or if you're a perfectionist (like me), you can go with pure RO and use seachem buffers to get your pH somewhere closer to neutral. Mine's been stable at 7.2 since my last buffering system got overrun. Be aware, seachem's neutral regulator is phosphate based, while it's acid and alkaline buffers are not. I believe they're carbonate based. Don't quote me on that though.

EDIT: It is NaHCO3, it's in the alkaline buffer page.

EDIT2: Here is seachem's FAQ on neutral regulator. And alkaline/acid buffer.

Different links for acid and alkaline buffer. Weird since you're supposed to use them together...

 

[adeebm]

Yep, Seachem makes plant safe, non phospahate buffers. I could use Acid/Alkaline buffer to raise kH and set pH, and equillibrium for GH and minerals. And then probably some Kent Discus essentials for trace nutrients. It's only $30 for all of that and lasts 3000 gallons.

Also, I might want to keep a discus in my tank, so better water conditions should help

Life is so much easier when there is one "right" answer and one "wrong". I hate making a decision and then learning later that I chose the wrong thing...

Here is what I think:
1) Some people believe that my water conditions are not right for the fish I have.
2) They might adapt to my conditions
3) They would obviously do better in ideal conditions
4) It seems pretty cheap and easy to make those conditions

So logically, i think it's my duty to provide as best I can for my fish, and if that means RO, then so be it.

My only worry now, is switching the tank from it's current tap water, to buffered RO water. I'm assuming the best way is the get the seachem buffers and just use it for water changes, so the tank will transition over. However, the pH might stay constant until the new buffer overcomes the old and then jump to 6 :/ That would probably be bad for fishies...

--Adeeb

 

[corrado33]

Well, with acid/alkaline buffer, you can choose the ratio you want to set the pH. I would just choose the ratio to set the pH to 8, then in a couple weeks choose the next ratio down to set the pH to 7.5 etc. It'll make the transition nice and easy. You MIGHT have a day where your pH freaks out a bit, but you'll be fine. I had a couple days where my pH was around 8.6, or 8, or 7.5. It was not fun. Didn't lose any fish though, so that's good.

And yes, seachem RO/DI stuff isn't that expensive, but there are MUCH cheaper options available.

See this site.

With that said, I was in your same situation a couple months ago. I bought seachem stuff and use RO/DI water. Eventually I'll buy dry ferts and stuff from that site, but I wanted to take the easy route first. All I gotta do is follow directions on the seachem stuff.

EDIT: With that site you need to know what you're talking about too. Equilibrium is essentially "Barrs GH Booster". Fluorish is a combination of a couple of different things you can order from there, so like I said, you need to know WHAT you need.

 

[BlackMagic]

how do u test out the soft/hard water part???
how do u turn soft water into hard water???

i keep fish for a long time now but never bother with hardness n softness in water. what work for me work for me, if its not wrong dont fix it.

 

[mattrox]

To test for hardness you need a KH (carbonate hardness) and a GH (general hardness) kit.....

For most fish if you water has a KH of higher than 2 and you are doing weekly 25% pwc's you should have no issues. If you have a low KH out of the tap then you need to worry about pH crashes.