Please help... Tank is getting away from me

[GodSaveTheFish]

Tank

• Acrylic 80gallon including 10gallon sump. Purchase and setup February 2023.
• Tetra AP300 bubble maker feeding two 8 inch air stone curtains and a bubble strip for larger bubbles.
• 1058 gph Wavemaker aimed 45degrees towards the surface.
• 800 gph pump in the sump.
• Light source is Fluval 24" smart LED.
• 2 large pieces of driftwood boiled repeatedly until there was no discoloration of the water.
• Initially had (30Lbs) small river rock which removed because some of them looked like they were dissolving after first month (?). The base is clear of any substrate.
• Assorted media (1Lb) bio balls, ceramic rings, crushed lava rock.
• Ceramic bio balls (6Lbs).
• Fluval Bio-Fx (4Lbs).
• 200micron filter sock (various amazon sellers) these get changed out twice per week.
• Marineland bonded filter pad; cut 2 squares to catch overflow from the sock; change top pad monthly when its too dirty.
• None of the bio media has been replaced other than the socks/pads

C​ycling

• Prior to fish cycling did 2 months of just water, plants, bottles of Brightwell 15x concentrated starter. I think used 250mL of this in the first 2 months.
• Added API stress zyme / coat and water condition weekly with water top offs, no water changes in the beginning.
• Used Aqueon tropical fish flakes for ammonia source; about half the (12.8g) bottle.
• Had a cloudy bacterial bloom twice in the first two months. One after the rocks were removed so figured the system need a reboot at the loss of substrate.
• Zebra Danios x10 were added in end of April to help fish cycling.
• Harlequin Rasboras and Blue Neon Tetras x10 each added June.
• Leopard Cory x2 and 4x Nerite snails added August to help with cleanup.
• No deaths during the beginning.
• Over the last month half our tank has died losing 1 fish every few days. Most recent loss was a Danio yesterday.

Feed one frozen brine shrimp cube every other day, gone within 5 minutes. Sprinkle flakes or dried blood worms to see if they're still hungry. If I feed every 3rd day I notice some of them start pecking at the plants.
Currently fish are behaving normal; no one is gulping at the surface, hiding, rubbing on anything.
Live plants mostly look good. One plant is putting up new leaves/shoots/roots but the old ones are almost disintegrating. Add API Leaf Zone and CO2 booster week weekly.


Parameters
Using API 5-in-1 strips for GH, KH; and API dropper/test tube freshwater kit for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH.
Use tap water mostly, very hard NV water. Occasionally top off with RO drinking water with 5 gallon maximum. GH 0, KH 0, pH 6, 0 Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate
Water temp 76F
Water changes will fill 4x 5gallon buckets and add API tap water conditioner, stress coat, stress zyme measuring for the full 80 gallons added to each bucket. Let them settle for 24 hours before doing the tank vacuum and water change; but do not always do the full 20 gallons, just prepping in case needed extra vacuuming. Add more Brightwell bacteria to the sump after water changes.

Yesterday performed replaced top filter pad and sock; also 20gallon change because of high ammonia. Despite that no real change to the water chemistries; checked few hours later.


Tap water:
GH: 180
KH: 80-120
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.6


Tank water BEFORE AND AFTER water change yesterday.

GH: 180
KH: 40-80
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 20-40
pH: 7.4


Prepping for another water change today as I refilled the buckets in anticipation.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Bigger water changes are needed until your tank cycles.

A 25% water change will have negligible effect on your parameters. It will reduce the levels by 25%, making toxic water slightly less toxic.

You are adding way too much chemicals. Stresscoat and API tap water conditioner do exactly the same thing. They both remove chlorine/ chloramine. Pick one. The API tap water conditioner will be the cheaper product.

Stresscoat promotes slimecoat through an aloe vera additive. Aloe vera is a polymerised sugar and promotes slimecoat by irritating the fish to get a response from the immune system. It coats fishes gills and makes them less efficient. The aloe vera depolymerises in the water releasing sugar. None of this seems a good idea to me. Apart from it being in Stresscoat has anybody ever heard of adding aloe vera additives into aquariums?

On top of all that you are dosing for a full 80 gallons in each of 4 buckets. Thats a 4x overdose of 2 different water conditioners for every 20% water change.

Just remove the water from the tank, add enough water conditioner for the whole 80 gallons, and refill the tank with temperature matched water. No need to let it stand, let the water conditioner do its job. It works on contact so takes no time at all to be effective.

Stresszyme contains a different bacteria that consumes detritus. If you do your proper water maintenance its not needed. Its just another chemical unnecessarily going into the tank, and at a 4x overdose.

Liquid CO2 additives are poisonous to fish. Its gluteraldhyde, which is normally used to sterilse medical equipment. In aquariums it acts as a mild algaecide, and provides zero CO2. You have to be careful not to overdose, its a fine line between no real harm, and killing everything. Due to the negligible benefits, is it really worthwhile dosing this given the risk? These CO2 products should be removed from the aquarium hobby IMO.

The only chemical you need is a water conditioner. Just find the one that works out cheapest per water change. Thats usually either Seachem Prime or API Tap Water Conditioner. If you have live plants they may benefit from an all-in-one fertiliser like the leaf zone.

 

[GodSaveTheFish]

Thanks for input.



I thought I was under utilizing the co2 additive since it says dose daily. If I get a CO2 can and bubbler, is it OK to hang it in the sump return? My main tank doesn't have a lot of available space to bring more cables, tubing, etc through the top.



I'll scale back on the additives. I was suggested by local fish store to add the API to the buckets to neutralize the chlorine in our water so the bacteria in the tank don't get nuked during a water change. And they said there wasn't an upper limit to the use; if I'm having trouble getting control of the ammonia to add more because of the bacteria addition.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The bacteria responsible for your cycle doesn't live in the water, it lives on surface area. This is your substrate, the glass your aquarium is made from, any decorations, but mainly the 11lbs of filter media you have. As said water conditioner works on contact, it will remove chlorine/ chloramine instantly so its fine to add it to your tank water and refill. If you want to add it into each bucket rather than the tank thats fine, but add enough to treat the water in the bucket.

Im not sure what API say about overdosing, but all of these products work the same. Seachem say its safe for a 5x overdose, and you are overdosing to a degree of 8x which is a degree ive never heard of. If nothing else its prohibitively expensive and unnecessary.

The CO2 booster product isnt going to be an issue if its not overdosed to any degree, but it really isnt doing what it says it does. It works by removing a little algae from the surface of the plant and can then better utilise the available CO2 in the water. You really wont notice any difference if you use it or not. Many of these aquarium related products dont do what they say they do, or don't work how they say they do, or serve no useful function, or in some cases are downright harmful. Their only purpose is to remove the money from your pocket, and your local fish store has gone to town with you. You must be their favourite customer.

To be clear, your fish are dying because they have been living in an uncycled tank, living in their own waste, and you havent been doing big enough/ frequent enough water changes to keep the water at safe parameters while it cycled. Living in poor water will have led to long term health issues, so resolving the water quality issues won't necessarily be an instant fix to your problem, and the fish will likely not live their expected lifespans. But you can give them a better quality of life and improve their chances of recovering by working harder to keep water quality good. The unnecessary chemicals arent helping matters though.

If you want to add injected CO2 into the sump rather than the main tank, you can do that. But it wont be as effective as some CO2 will offgas in the sump and from the return flow before you get it to your plants. So you will using far more CO2 to get it to the desired level in your tank. Make sure the CO2 is in the outflow section of the sump.

What precisely is your light fitting? An aquasky or plant? If its just an aquasky then you wont have enough light to utilise the CO2.

What type of plants are you keeping or plan to keep? If they are the typical plants kept in most aquariums, they will be low demand and will get no benefit from injected CO2. You say you have no substrate, so i dont know what kind of nutrient hungry plants you could have that need injected CO2. If you are keeping plants that will do good with liquid CO2 (which isnt providing any CO2), doesn't need specialist substrate or lighting, and is good with infrequent dosing of fertilisers, they dont need injected CO2.

If you do go down the CO2 route, turn off the airstone and wavemaker. They will cause the CO2 to offgas too quickly and you will get no benefit. Its usual to keep surface agitation to a minimum while running CO2. The nutrient hungry plants that utilise injected CO2 will oxygenate the water just fine, and you can then turn off the CO2, and turn on the airstones/ wavemaker at night when the plants arent photosynthesising.

 

[GodSaveTheFish]

The bacteria responsible for your cycle doesn't live in the water, it lives on surface area. This is your substrate, the glass your aquarium is made from, any decorations, but mainly the 11lbs of filter media you havea.

What substrate do you recommend at the bottom? The tank is 36 inches deep and the river rocks there before held so much rotting and sludge. Even without fish it was gross. I have a python system with a 3 foot nozzle.

To be clear, your fish are dying because they have been living in an uncycled tank, living in their own waste, and you havent been doing big enough/ frequent enough water changes to keep the water at safe parameters while it cycled.

I've thrown away the co2 and the stress coat solutions. I did a 50% water change today with just API tap water conditioner.

How long does cycling a tank take? I was told a few weeks and I didn't add fish for the first few months, starting with the danios to add a fish-in cycle. I'm not trying to be an idiot, but I am novice and I was doing what I thought was correct from outside guidance.

My intention is to set up another tank for my office, so hoping to learn and not have another nightmare.

 

[Aiken Drum]

What substrate do you recommend at the bottom? The tank is 36 inches deep and the river rocks there before held so much rotting and sludge. Even without fish it was gross. I have a python system with a 3 foot nozzle.

That really depends on what fish and plants you want to keep. Just gravel or sand is fine for most fish and plants. If you are wanting to go down a high tech planted tank set up you may require a specialist planted substrate that will provide nutrients to high demand plants. But i really think that is over complicating things for a novice fish keeper.

Rocks in lieu of substrate will just trap waste as you found. Rocks should be used to create features in your tank, not to be the substrate itself. Even without fish, all that fish food you dumped into the water just got trapped and will rot and go mouldy. You would have been much better using ammonium chloride as an ammonia source for a fishless cycle as you could accurately dose it, and you dont get the problems you got with rotting, uneaten fish food.

A gravel or sand substrate will be easy to maintain, and be just fine to plant most of the easy to keep, low demand plants that are commonly kept in aquariums.

How long does cycling a tank take? I was told a few weeks and I didn't add fish for the first few months, starting with the danios to add a fish-in cycle. I'm not trying to be an idiot, but I am novice and I was doing what I thought was correct from outside guidance.

My intention is to set up another tank for my office, so hoping to learn and not have another nightmare.

It takes as long as it takes. A couple of months is typical. It can take a few weeks if all the measures you take to speed things are actually effective, which often they arent. It can often take longer which is what you are seeing.

It doesnt sound like you have ever really been in control of the cycling process, but having said that you have been going for 6 months and the tank should have cycled by now. Maybe all the overdosed chemicals have inhibited things, but IMO you are nearly there. Your ammonia and nitrite arent that high despite the small water changes and you have highish nitrate which shows your cycle is there to some degree. It wouldnt surprise me if a couple of weeks from now your cycle establishes and the ammonia + nitrite disappear from your tests.

I think one thing to learn is to not overcomplicate things. There are tried and tested ways to do things. Keep things simple. There is no need for all the chemicals, no need for complicated high tech CO2 systems, no need for sumps, especially for beginners.

 

[Joe_D]

I agree.