Please help, new tank, difficult water parameters

[RhinoDH]

Ok... I'm having a really hard time here. Trying to do things right and it is very difficult.

I'll describe the situation (sad :-( and then my questions. There's a few so I'll really appreciate any help!

The story so far (lengthy... ... ... skip to the bottom if you want to get the the questions...):
Had problems with my small tank, too small for me, so I quickly upgraded to 38 gal tank.
Set it up and let it filter for a day.
Went to best LFS around (only sells fish) purchased 6 Leopard Danios and
Bio-Spira to set up the tank.
Added my Pl*co and Neon Gourami which I have had for about 6 weeks.
Next day went to Petsmart and purchased 3 Bala Sharks, 5 Tiger barbs and got 5 Swordtail fry thrown in for free.
Added Bala's and Barbs to main tank and fry to 5 gallon (they're bite sized... so they stay all alone.)
16 fish total in the main tank.

For about 3 days seemed OK though 2 of the Bala's hid alot and weren't very active (One in particular.)
I saw an Ich spot on one of the barbs and realized the smaller Bala's were covered. Very soon all fish were covered in Ich.

Ran to petsmart, recieved some VERY bad advice (Do NOT remove the carbon filter, here is some Quick Cure to treat the Ich we gave you, yes just dump the whole cup in; it had to be at least 6 oz.) Luckily I made him get me the bottle so I could read the directions and only put a little bit in. Did not remove the carbon filter for 3 days B4 I realized the problem.

All fish now covered in ich, two Balas were dead others in bad shape.
Dyed everything green in my tank and one by one everything died.

After lots of water changes and adding Quick Cure for 5 days there was no change.

I added salt TBS per 5 Gal and raised the Temp to 85 for 5 days.

I pulled the Pl*co out of the main tank and stuck him in a 3 gal bucket with a filter and he is doing great. No ich and seems completely recovered. (Which is good news since I thought he was dead at one time.)

Everything in the main tank died except for two Danios (seem fine, though not normal yet) and 5 of 6 very happy shrimp (found the one dead.)

The swordtails in the 5 gallon are fine, happy and ravenous every time I feed them.
=============
Thank you for reading the above, I am unhappy, me and my fish are stressed and I really don't want to kill any more.

I bought a test kit.
Seen here.
http://www.petguys.com/-317163010340.html

Here are my water parameters.

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 5ppm+ this test only goes to 5 but mentions it will get a reading 3 times lower than most kits...
GH 22 Degrees!
KH Not tested yet, imagine it is very high
PH 8.4 in main aquarium? 7.6 from tap.

38 Gal tank now at 79 deg, aeration and a Penguin 170 filter.

What should I do? It seems the Bio-Spira did nothing and I am part way through cycling.

Questions:
1. Does salt raise PH? Is this why the tank has a much higher reading than tap water. Does aeration do this?
2. What should I do about the water hardness, I don't want cichlids or mollys. Is RO water the only thing?
3. If the salt is causing this should I just let it dissipate through water changes? Is 7.6 PH OK for a community with Gourami and Tiger Barbs?
4. What temperature is good for this tank?
5. How do I get a stable PH if it is less than the tap water?
6. Is it OK to add the water to the tank and then add the conditioner, or is that to much for the fish. (I have not been doing that, I have added conditioner before, mixed it up, let it sit for 5 min then pour. Takes a long time.)


I'm sure I'll have plenty more... I'll stop here, though.

Thank you so much!

 

[Allivymar]

Hiya and welcome to AquariumAdvice Rhino:

Ugh. What a mess. Lets see what we can do.

You need to do some water changes to reduce those nitrite levels. Bio-Spira is awesome stuff, and I've used it successfully 3 times, but if it has ever gotten frozen or warm during shipping its no better then adding just water (the bacteria die). And of course, theres no way of knowing that. That may not be the problem tho; most ich meds will muck up the nitrifying bacterial colonies. My bet is the QuickCure is what messed things up and not a bad bag of Bio-Spira.

Adding salt will help as well; salt is THE treatment for nitrite poisoning. Salt will also raise Ph levels, although I don't know if it would raise it that much; is there anything else in the tank which would raise it (some rocks maybe?).

Your temp is fine, but boy thats really hard water. I'm no Gh/Dh/Ph specialist; I'll leave that to some of the others who can discuss it and understand it better then I LOL

You sure can add the water and the conditioner after IF its added imediately after. I use a Python and add the dechlor at the end of the tank filling up; I've never had a prob doing that, and the water is coming straight from the tap to the tank.

Urk. That was some pretty crappy advice from the lfs. I have to admit, I've never used meds to treat for ich; high temps (over 86f) and high levels of salt (2-3 ppm) work wonders and don't mess up the water parameters. For future reference, check out this site: http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html . Explains what ich is, as well as its life cycle and the ways it can be treated. Great site.

Keep the questions coming

 

[RhinoDH]

Thanks for the help, I think I'm going to like it here!

I am, will be changing the water often.

The tank has ordinary aquarium gravel you find at any petstore including Wal-Mart.

It has several decorations, rocks and ruins from Petsmart. A large plastic plant and that's about it.

One other question about adding dechlor... do I add enough for the entire tank or just enough for the amount of water I'm replacing?

 

[peterp]

You have(had) quite a large fish load for the tank. The bala's and pl*co can get large, rule-o-thumb is about 1 inch of adult fish( minus tail) per gallon of water.

If you have a good LFS around I'd stay away from the per$marts and the like.
expensive, questionable advise, and questionable stock.

Locate a BigAl's retail store or their online site BigAlsOnline for your equipment they are a lot cheaper.

You add enough de-chlorinator for the water you are replacing.

 

[LondonGman]

Hi dude, I feel your pain and just want to offer my sympathy.
1: Don’t know much about salt
2: 7.6 from tap is OK so stop adding salt to tank
3: Yes
4: depends on the fishes, get books and use the temp that suits all fishes in tank. 24 degrees will be OK for most Danios
5: not an expert on ph but unless you add chemicals to it, it should remain at tap water levels
6: I have been doing what you do without the 5 minute wait but most people here use a "python" and run tap water into tank and drip in required amount of de-chlorinator.

Most people here swear by Bio_spira. We do not have it in the UK, (right Terry??). This means we cannot dump a load of fishes into a new tank. Try adding less fishes at a time. It may not stop the ich thing but reduce the chance of it happening due to reduced stress of the fishes. (found that ponit in the Ich article)

Hang in there and when you finally have a fully stocked and cycled tank, it will relieve all the stress it caused you to set it up in the first place. LOL

 

[jsoong]

I am just going to comment on the salt & pH question.

As far as I know, pure NaCl (talbe salt) does not alter pH, at least not to the extend you see here. (There is a slight effect as adding electrolytes will alter the dissociation equlibrium of the HCO3- buffering system -- that is KH in aquarium speak -- but the effect is small)

I found this on the web from salt maufacturer:
http://www.aquariumfish.net/information/aquarium_salt_3.htm
that states that Aquarium salt will not alter pH, but Marine salt - having both NaCl & other salts, will raise pH.

For the levels used in fresh water tank, I think that even Marine salt will not change the pH by almost 1. (pH being a log scale, a change of 1 means a 10 times increase/decrease in H+ concentration). At any rate I've been adding salt to my tank at 0.1% and noted no change in pH.

The most likely cause of the pH change would be some leaching of HCO3-, probably from rocks or gravel. I read here in the DIY section that one must test for this before adding collected rocks, etc into the tank. You test this by adding a bit of acid (eg vinegar) to the rock. If it bubbles, then it contains significant amounts of HCO3-, and that will raise yopur pH.