possible recycling after ich treatment...

[saa5886]

As many of you know, I have a newly setup tank that's about 4 weeks old. About 4 days ago all of my fish got ich. I was advised to remove everything from the tank and boil it to kill the diseases.
Now, still with nothing in the tank, my water is all foggy white again.
I have been using meds, and salt. I also left about two gallons of water out of the tank so the filter would create more bubbles with its falling water.
My question is....is my tank cycling all over again. it would make sense because of all the water changes and practicallynew water. But then again I don't really know what "cycling" truly is. Just that it needs to lol

 

[logansmomma1228]

I don't know if you have been showed these links yet, but here are a few to help you better understand cycling:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...-but-i-already-have-fish-what-now-116287.html

Fish Disease - Ich


As far as a re-cyle, I don't think there will be one. 4 weeks is just enough to cycle your tank, especially with fish in it (assuming you didn't use anything from an established tank). It could stall your cycle, since it was probably still cycling, or it could send it into a mini cycle, which isn't as bad but is still bad. The cloudy water could be either from a bacterial bloom, or more likely, the meds and salt.

I would suggest getting this if you don't have it already: Walmart.com: Freshwater Master Test Kit: Fish

since strips are pretty inaccurate, and essentially more expensive in the long run. Keep a close eye on your parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and do 50% ish water changes daily to every other day to keep them down. Since your fish have ich AND are probably stressed from high levels, it is best to do them as , "peacefully" as possible lol

Most of your beneficial bacteria live in the filter media, substrate, and decor. So water changes aren't going to cause a re-cylce or mini-cyle. It would be from taking everything out and boiling it.

Hope this helps!

 

[dkpate]

Are you using salt, heat and meds??? You should be using salt and heat, or just the meds.
The meds you are putting in there will kill your bacteria, so you probably will have to cycle all over again.
I advised the bleaching of the decor to help get rid of the ich if I remember right. It's easier to treat a tank that has a bare bottom.

 

[saa5886]

Ok well first of all, I did use decorations from an established tank, which is why my tank ended up so out of balance to begin with. I didnt know any better, and the lady who sold it all to me said it would help my tank cycle correctly.
Now I have found out thats not true, and have boiled everything and set it out to dry.
As far as re-cycling, it IS possible because my water has been replaced so many times and is pretty much new. When the ich outbreak first happened, I did a 90% water change and took everything out to boil it. I then did a 25% water change every day with treatment. The water I originally put in the tank is no longer in the tank.
I still have nothing in the tank, just water and fish, because I'm letting the rocks dry. As for the other decorations, I couldnt get the dead algae off it. Not even with boiling hot water and a scrub brush. So it looks like I'll have to go with all new stuff.
As far as cycling goes, no one ever explained exactly what it was to begin with. I googled search after search and never really found a description, just that it needed to. Of course, anyone who doesnt know about it is going to assume that just means letting the water cycle through the filter and allowing the chemicals to do their thing. Thats why I only waited 24 hours to put the fish in.
Hope it makes sense where I'm coming from.

At this point, I do understand somewhat that my tank needs to cycle for a few weeks without fish, but I honestly dont understand how the parameters of water can change without any fish in it. Isnt it just the same water cycling through the filter over and over?

As far as using meds and salt together, I read elsewhere thats perfectly fine for a bad outbreak, which mine was. It was so bad that I had fish floating upside down at the top who are now perfectly alive. I did the right thing obviously or theyd be in my toilet.
Anyway I'll read up on that cycling link that was provided. Thanks!

 

[logansmomma1228]

Ok well first of all, I did use decorations from an established tank, which is why my tank ended up so out of balance to begin with. I didnt know any better, and the lady who sold it all to me said it would help my tank cycle correctly.Now I have found out thats not true, and have boiled everything and set it out to dry.

This will help your tank cycle faster. The reason this is true is that when you have decorations from an established tank there will be beneficial bacteria living on it. It works really well if you get filter media from an established tank, because that is where the majority of the BB live. However, if you get stuff from an est tank and let it dry out before putting it in your tank, the bacteria will die anyways. so unless you kept that stuff wet in tank water it didn't do anything. Lol.

As far as re-cycling, it IS possible because my water has been replaced so many times and is pretty much new. When the ich outbreak first happened, I did a 90% water change and took everything out to boil it. I then did a 25% water change every day with treatment. The water I originally put in the tank is no longer in the tank.

That is what caused the re-cycle. Water changes could have helped from changing so much, but changing the water alone is not going to cause that. As I said a few times already, most of your bacteria live in the substrate, decor, and filter media. By taking it all out at once you killed most of it off. Granted, you had to do it because of the ich. I would have done the same thing. You need to keep up on your water changes, 50% daily to keep your levels down or your fish will suffer more.

As far as cycling goes, no one ever explained exactly what it was to begin with. I googled search after search and never really found a description, just that it needed to. Of course, anyone who doesnt know about it is going to assume that just means letting the water cycle through the filter and allowing the chemicals to do their thing. Thats why I only waited 24 hours to put the fish in.
Hope it makes sense where I'm coming from.

It does make sense, lol. Everyone does that I think. I thought the same thing, but a tank, put water in it, and put some fish in. When I googled how to set my tank up I found some article on Fishless cycling. Lucky that I did or I would have had fish in there the next day. Those links I gave you are very useful in describing the cycle. If you google Nitrogen Cycle or How to cycle a fish tank you should get tons of info.

At this point, I do understand somewhat that my tank needs to cycle for a few weeks without fish, but I honestly dont understand how the parameters of water can change without any fish in it. Isnt it just the same water cycling through the filter over and over?

Again, the water isn't where most of the bacteria is.

When fishless cycling, you add an ammonia source to start the nitrogen cycle. I prefer pure ammonia. Works great. When cycling with fish they are the ammonia source. Fish waste produces ammonia.

Once ammonia is present, nitrifying bacteria will grow to convert it to nitrItes. Then more bacteria grows to produce those to nitrAtes.

 

[saa5886]

Well ok, I just read through the link provided above called 'I just learned about cycling but I already have fish, what now?" and I'm about to make a huge point that I know many of you will disagree with...
and I quote a sentence from that very article in regards to where ammonia comes from...
"Your fish produce it in their waste and any left over food (or rotting plants) decompose into Ammonia. A fishless cycle, which is preferable by most standards, involves adding an ammonia source (usually a decaying shrimp or pure non-scented ammonia)"
This even says I need a FISH or some kind of animal that puts off waste to cycle the tank basically with their poop turning into ammonia. It is impossible to cycle a tank if everything in the tank is brand new. You need something decaying. This is why people cycle with fish.

I'm sorry you guys but in all honesty, I've never lost a fish due to all these levels you talk about. I've lost fish from Ich, which was my fault for not QTing new fish before adding them to the tank. In all my family's years, we've never cycled a tank for what you guys consider to be cycling. We'd add water, chemicals, let it run for a day, and slowly add fish. Never had a test kit, never had a loss.

Here's another area I'm highly confused in... if the fish need water without high levels of things..why not just use distilled water and add some softner? lol
I mean, when I went to my local fish store and asked what aquarium water is, he said Distilled.

 

[logansmomma1228]

Some people do cycle with fish. It is just very painful to the fish. It burns their gills and shortens their life span.


"Your fish produce it in their waste and any left over food (or rotting plants) decompose into Ammonia. A fishless cycle, which is preferable by most standards, involves adding an ammonia source (usually a decaying shrimp or pure non-scented ammonia)" - that is not living

It is possible to cycle with fish. It just isn't nice to them. Lol


They do sell RO water. I am not sure exactly how that works but I know it is already distilled and you can just add it to your tank,.

 

[saa5886]

I should have clarified... the decoration had dried out...I got the tank from a friend, and no, I couldnt carry it full of water...
I'm not sure if the ich came from her or the neons I added, but yeah everything is pretty much new now since I boiled it. I'm not adding anything back into the tank that still has dead, dry algae on it.

 

[saa5886]

right.... if you look up the distillation process on wikipedia, its through reverse osmosis which is boiling lol...
In other words, go to walmart, buy some distilled water, and fill your tank with that.
Or just boil your own tap water, let it set to become room temp, and add that. Its the same reason youll hear "boiling water" warnings on the news about how you need to boil your water to remove harmful things.

 

[Aquarium1]

Well ok, I just read through the link provided above called 'I just learned about cycling but I already have fish, what now?" and I'm about to make a huge point that I know many of you will disagree with...
and I quote a sentence from that very article in regards to where ammonia comes from...
"Your fish produce it in their waste and any left over food (or rotting plants) decompose into Ammonia. A fishless cycle, which is preferable by most standards, involves adding an ammonia source (usually a decaying shrimp or pure non-scented ammonia)"
This even says I need a FISH or some kind of animal that puts off waste to cycle the tank basically with their poop turning into ammonia. It is impossible to cycle a tank if everything in the tank is brand new. You need something decaying. This is why people cycle with fish.

The ammonia/shrimp represents something decaying. When fish waste decomposes it turns into ammonia, which you could just add right to the tank instead of harming the fish..

I'm sorry you guys but in all honesty, I've never lost a fish due to all these levels you talk about. I've lost fish from Ich, which was my fault for not QTing new fish before adding them to the tank. In all my family's years, we've never cycled a tank for what you guys consider to be cycling. We'd add water, chemicals, let it run for a day, and slowly add fish. Never had a test kit, never had a loss.

If it doesn't kill them instantly, it will probably at least shorten their lifespan. It also burns their gills, and causes quite a bit of pain.

Here's another area I'm highly confused in... if the fish need water without high levels of things..why not just use distilled water and add some softner? lol
I mean, when I went to my local fish store and asked what aquarium water is, he said Distilled.

Even if you used distilled water, the fish are eventually going to put ammonia in it. That's why we cycle. The bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrites, and then another set of bacteria turn those nitrites into nitrates. These nitrates are much less deadly than ammonia or nitrites and can be removed through pwcs.

 

[logansmomma1228]

That would probly work, lol. I just use prime in my water. It binds the ammonia and all that to detoxify them, or something like that. It also dechlors the water. Probably would be cheaper in the long run to use that, but whatever floats your boat To each his (or her) own!

 

[cabezon]

right.... if you look up the distillation process on wikipedia, its through reverse osmosis which is boiling lol...
In other words, go to walmart, buy some distilled water, and fill your tank with that.
Or just boil your own tap water, let it set to become room temp, and add that. Its the same reason youll hear "boiling water" warnings on the news about how you need to boil your water to remove harmful things.

I can't tell what you are trying to say. Boiling, distilling and RO filtering are three different processes.

And if you are saying that using some form of purified water is enough for fish, you are wrong. Fish will always poop. food will always decay. Without a cycle the ammonia stresses out the fish, and this is why your fish have Ich.

If the fish still have Ich, raise the temp, i believe it is above or around 90 degrees. This will end the ich cycle. Ich is present everywhere, like the cold virus for us, it is only when our immune systems are comprimised that we get sick ususally. I didn't see where you have a filter, i would assume you do?

 

[logansmomma1228]

If the fish still have Ich, raise the temp, i believe it is above or around 90 degrees. This will end the ich cycle.

Just remember to raise the temp slowly so the fish can get used to it, and not get shocked. Maybe like 1 to 2 degrees every few hours or so? Maybe someone else can jump in on that one, I am not sure how slowly you are supposed to do it but I know it needs to be done slowly

 

[saa5886]

They no longer have ich...and I dont even have a heater

I'm still confused about all this. I understand completely that poop and decaying matter turn into ammonia, etc... but as soon as you put a fish in theyre going to poop anyway, so the cycling process would start all over again anyway as soon as you put a fish in, even if its in a small way.

As far as this process hurting the fish, how do you know? Just because someone says it does doesnt make it true. We have no way to feel what fish feel. Unless they are showing some kind of signs or symptoms theres really no way to know or tell. If scientists have tested the water that these fish usually live in and they have these perfect parameters, then I understand wanting to match those params. But how do we really know it hurts the fish?

As for ich, my fish didnt get ich because of bad params... my perams were tested at a local fish store (all they carry are fish, its their specialty) and they were fine. My fish got ich because I added a fish straight from walmart without QTing. At that time, I didnt know any better. Now I do.

 

[Aquarium1]

I'm still confused about all this. I understand completely that poop and decaying matter turn into ammonia, etc... but as soon as you put a fish in theyre going to poop anyway, so the cycling process would start all over again anyway as soon as you put a fish in, even if its in a small way.

no, once you cycle, the bacteria is already established so it can handle fish. You just have to add a few at a time.

 

[logansmomma1228]

Just because a fish store carries fish doesn't mean they know what they are doing. There are plenty of places that are like that. Bad params don't cause ich in itself, but they stress the fish out. This makes them more susceptible to diseases.

 

[saa5886]

no, once you cycle, the bacteria is already established so it can handle fish. You just have to add a few at a time.

But I already have fish in the tank...

 

[Aquarium1]

But I already have fish in the tank...

I'm just sayin; thats how the fishless cycle works.

 

[saa5886]

Just because a fish store carries fish doesn't mean they know what they are doing. There are plenty of places that are like that. Bad params don't cause ich in itself, but they stress the fish out. This makes them more susceptible to diseases.

He was very knowledgeable and was telling me what you guys are telling me. He tested the water with drops, which you guys say are accurate. He didn't use strips.

 

[saa5886]

maybe i should just pay someone to do this for me