Question about ammonia

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touchofgrey

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Nov 27, 2013
Messages
22
Location
Raleigh, NC
Setup: 180 fw drilled, 2 canisters running through overflows, sand substrate, mix of plastic and live plants. LED lights.
Fish: 3 plecos- 1 6", 1 4", 1 3". 2 large angels. 5 neon tetras. 2 longfin zebra danios. 8 corys. 2 clown loaches. 1 siamese algae eater. 4 barbs.

Chemistry- nitrites: 0. Nitrates: 15ppm. pH: 7.0 Ammonia: 8+ ppm
Tested with APC test kit. I also have one of those ammonia monitor things (color changes to indicate ammonia level) and it consistently indicates 0ppm.

Dose weekly with Stress-zyme and Easy Balance.

Here is what I don't understand- multiple water changes, ammonia seems to stay consistently VERY high. I don't overfeed, fish are very active, eat well, I haven't lost a fish in a good while, they seem very happy. Angels lay eggs frequently, last time most of them hatched but got eaten. In addition to the water changes, every time I do a wc I've dosed with Amquel+ to convert ammonia to non-toxic. I also run 2 HOT250s with ammo chips. Last 3 wc have been in the neighborhood of 50% each.

What the heck am I missing here? :facepalm::banghead:
 
How old is the test kit? Sometimes the reagents go bad.
Try testing with a new test kit.
Since you have one indicator saying no amm., and one testing positive. Obviously one of them is wrong.
Also as posted, test your tap water.
 
Stop treating your tank with Stress-Zyme and whatever that other stuff was as they could well be giving you false readings.
 
Can you tell me about the ammonia monitor? Is it the Seachem Ammonia Alert?

I may scientifically disagree with the previous two replies if that is the item you have; I'll tell you why once I know what the ammonia monitor is.
 
It is very strange to have a neutral pH, high ammonia levels, and a seemingly healthy aquarium. The ammonia concentration measurement you're making with the APC kit seems suspicious.
 
ammonia monitor

Can you tell me about the ammonia monitor? Is it the Seachem Ammonia Alert?

I may scientifically disagree with the previous two replies if that is the item you have; I'll tell you why once I know what the ammonia monitor is.

Yes it is the seachem monitor.
 
ammonia issue

Stop treating your tank with Stress-Zyme and whatever that other stuff was as they could well be giving you false readings.

How could amquel+ and stress-zyme give false readings? I used the stress-zyme in my other tank, never had an issue, and the amquel is supposed to detoxify ammonia...
 
How old is the test kit? Sometimes the reagents go bad.
Try testing with a new test kit.
Since you have one indicator saying no amm., and one testing positive. Obviously one of them is wrong.
Also as posted, test your tap water.

Test kit 3 months old. Tap water tested, miniscule amount of ammonia.
 
You don't need amquel plus. Its fine or prime once you setup a new tank, but once its cycled, you should just get a api product called "Tap Water Conditioner", it dosent have all that other stuff and its cheap and last alot longer, only need like 4ml per ten gallon too. I don't like prime or amquel, and most people think im crazy, but theres really no need to add additional chemicals to "cover up" nitrates once a tank is cycled, and ammonia is easy enough to get rid of with ammo lock chips for me personally, id rather spend 5 bucks on a bottle of tap conditioner then buy stress coat, prime or amquel. Whens the last time you seen aloe vera in a lake? (nothing personal btw just my 2 cents worth)
 
OK Touchofgrey stick with me here. I'm going to answer the following questions in my follow up post and I will try to do it concisely and clearly:

1) Why does the first test read 8+PPM when,
2) My seachem ammonia alert says 0?
3) How and why can it be 0?
4) How do the ammonia "lock down" products work?
5) Do I need to use something that "locks down" my ammonia?

OK now let me go work on it ;) Be back in a few.
 
About to post it. I'm sorry because it's so, so long :( But if you read it I guarantee you will understand quite a bit about how your ammonia readings are so incongruous.

Also as an aside - your ammonia is soooo high there has GOT to be ammonia in your tap water or something, or a dead fish. Have you ever tested your tap water?
 
1) My ammonia reading on the API test is 8ppm! How is this possible?

Ammonia exists in the aquarium in a form harmful to fish called Free Ammonia (NH3). It also exists in a form NOT harmful to fish called Ammonium (NH4).

When we talk about "ammonia readings" around here from the most common test (API), we actually are referring to something called Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN). TAN is the sum of the Free Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4) that is in your water. So NH3 + NH4 = TAN.

Now, the API test kit doesn't tell us how much of each there is. It just gives us the TAN and we know that it is made up of "some amount" of NH3 and NH4.

The actual amount of NH4 to NH3 is ENTIRELY determined by your pH and temperature. Ammonia literally becomes ammonium instantly and vice versa as the ammonia molecules become ionized or deionized as the pH/temp fluctuate. NH3 the harmful ammonia is actually a VERY small percentage of the total ammonia reading which is what the API master test kit gives us (API kit tells us the total sum of NH3 and NH4). In fact it does this by altering the pH of the water so that all of the ammonia is a single type, and then it measures just the one type.

Your actual harmful level of ammonia NH3 in your aquarium, at 8ppm and pH 7.0 and assuming a standard temperature of about 25.5C (78F) is .046956ppm. This is the amount of harmful ammonia in your system. (it is actually a little less if your temperature is lower, and a little more if your temperature is higher). Anything over .05ppm is considered imminently harmful, meaning it is actively giving your fish ammonia burn right this minute. Anything over .02ppm is considered long-term harmful. It’s hurting your fish, but it’s a slow agonizing hurt.

2) So why does the Seachem ammonia alert say everything is fine?

The Seachem Ammonia Alert product concerns itself only with NH3 (Free Ammonia), the harmful kind. It does not detect or concern itself with NH4 because it is not harmful.

3) OK. But you said in question #1 that I have around .047ppm harmful ammonia. So why does the ammonia alert show 0?

The ammonia alert shows 0 because the remaining free ammonia NH3 is suppressed with Amquel+ and ammo chips.

4) How do these ammonia “lock down” products work?

Products such as Ammo Lock, Amquel, Prime and other water conditioners that “neutralize” ammonia are forcefully ionizing the NH3 molecules and forcing them to be NH4. The ammonia is still there in the system and still shows up on an API test kit because NH4 is still part of your Total Ammonia Nitrogen.
Some sites claim that these products give you “false” ammonia readings. This isn’t really true because as you now know, when people talk about ammonia readings they are almost always talking about Total Ammonia Nitrogen! (90% of the people on this board use the API test kit). They are changing the amount of your HARMFUL ammonia. Since they are forcing the harmful ammonia to be something it’s not, they only last about 24 hours. So these products need to be dosed every 24 hours to avoid a harmful level of NH3.

The benefits of using a chemical lockdown is that the ammonia is still available for the bacteria to consume, as they will eat either NH3 or NH4. And overall you WANT this to be available for the bacteria to consume because eventually the tank will be cycled and all ammonia will be processed by your filter. The drawbacks are constant dosing which is expensive.

Ammo chips work a little differently. They are made of a type of zeolite which is a naturally occurring mineral. This material is a mechanical ammonia filter meaning it’s not a chemical. The naturally occurring zeolite that befriends ammonia is Clinoptilolite and it literally sucks up the ammonia molecules and holds them inside. So this can become “used up” when there is no more room to grab more ammonia.

The benefits is this solution is completely natural.The drawbacks are the ammonia is removed from the system and unavailable to the bacteria, so it does not build your bio filter.

5) Do I need to use something that "locks down" my ammonia?

YES definitely. I hope it was clear from the calculation of free ammonia in your system that you must continue to lock it down either through conversion (use of Amquel+ or equivalent) or adsorbtion (ammo chips)

In fact I would be more free with daily your use of Amquel until you get your ammonia down. Remember, over .02 free ammonia is long-term harmful to your fish, and you are quite a ways above this.

Here is the link to the chart to figure out your true ammonia level. Find your pH and temperature to get the factor value. Now multiple this value by the reading your API test gives. If it’s not under .02, your fish are still “in trouble”
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums
 
Wow

Wow, that is the best explanation I've ever gotten about ANYTHING related to my tank, I really appreciate the time it took to do that. I understand very clearly what is going on. So the bottom line is, I need to keep dosing with Amquel, use ammo chips and work on the bacteria. Easy. I'll keep you updated as to what is going on. I lost a siamese algae eater today, I'm wondering if this is why. Thank you for your time and work on this.
Kelly


1) My ammonia reading on the API test is 8ppm! How is this possible?

Ammonia exists in the aquarium in a form harmful to fish called Free Ammonia (NH3). It also exists in a form NOT harmful to fish called Ammonium (NH4).

When we talk about "ammonia readings" around here from the most common test (API), we actually are referring to something called Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN). TAN is the sum of the Free Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4) that is in your water. So NH3 + NH4 = TAN.

Now, the API test kit doesn't tell us how much of each there is. It just gives us the TAN and we know that it is made up of "some amount" of NH3 and NH4.

The actual amount of NH4 to NH3 is ENTIRELY determined by your pH and temperature. Ammonia literally becomes ammonium instantly and vice versa as the ammonia molecules become ionized or deionized as the pH/temp fluctuate. NH3 the harmful ammonia is actually a VERY small percentage of the total ammonia reading which is what the API master test kit gives us (API kit tells us the total sum of NH3 and NH4). In fact it does this by altering the pH of the water so that all of the ammonia is a single type, and then it measures just the one type.

Your actual harmful level of ammonia NH3 in your aquarium, at 8ppm and pH 7.0 and assuming a standard temperature of about 25.5C (78F) is .046956ppm. This is the amount of harmful ammonia in your system. (it is actually a little less if your temperature is lower, and a little more if your temperature is higher). Anything over .05ppm is considered imminently harmful, meaning it is actively giving your fish ammonia burn right this minute. Anything over .02ppm is considered long-term harmful. It’s hurting your fish, but it’s a slow agonizing hurt.

2) So why does the Seachem ammonia alert say everything is fine?

The Seachem Ammonia Alert product concerns itself only with NH3 (Free Ammonia), the harmful kind. It does not detect or concern itself with NH4 because it is not harmful.

3) OK. But you said in question #1 that I have around .047ppm harmful ammonia. So why does the ammonia alert show 0?

The ammonia alert shows 0 because the remaining free ammonia NH3 is suppressed with Amquel+ and ammo chips.

4) How do these ammonia “lock down” products work?

Products such as Ammo Lock, Amquel, Prime and other water conditioners that “neutralize” ammonia are forcefully ionizing the NH3 molecules and forcing them to be NH4. The ammonia is still there in the system and still shows up on an API test kit because NH4 is still part of your Total Ammonia Nitrogen.
Some sites claim that these products give you “false” ammonia readings. This isn’t really true because as you now know, when people talk about ammonia readings they are almost always talking about Total Ammonia Nitrogen! (90% of the people on this board use the API test kit). They are changing the amount of your HARMFUL ammonia. Since they are forcing the harmful ammonia to be something it’s not, they only last about 24 hours. So these products need to be dosed every 24 hours to avoid a harmful level of NH3.

The benefits of using a chemical lockdown is that the ammonia is still available for the bacteria to consume, as they will eat either NH3 or NH4. And overall you WANT this to be available for the bacteria to consume because eventually the tank will be cycled and all ammonia will be processed by your filter. The drawbacks are constant dosing which is expensive.

Ammo chips work a little differently. They are made of a type of zeolite which is a naturally occurring mineral. This material is a mechanical ammonia filter meaning it’s not a chemical. The naturally occurring zeolite that befriends ammonia is Clinoptilolite and it literally sucks up the ammonia molecules and holds them inside. So this can become “used up” when there is no more room to grab more ammonia.

The benefits is this solution is completely natural.The drawbacks are the ammonia is removed from the system and unavailable to the bacteria, so it does not build your bio filter.

5) Do I need to use something that "locks down" my ammonia?

YES definitely. I hope it was clear from the calculation of free ammonia in your system that you must continue to lock it down either through conversion (use of Amquel+ or equivalent) or adsorbtion (ammo chips)

In fact I would be more free with daily your use of Amquel until you get your ammonia down. Remember, over .02 free ammonia is long-term harmful to your fish, and you are quite a ways above this.

Here is the link to the chart to figure out your true ammonia level. Find your pH and temperature to get the factor value. Now multiple this value by the reading your API test gives. If it’s not under .02, your fish are still “in trouble”
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums
 
No problem! I'm glad to hear it was helpful. I enjoyed writing it, because I'm a huge nerd that way :whistle:
 
No problem! I'm glad to hear it was helpful. I enjoyed writing it, because I'm a huge nerd that way :whistle:

+1

it really was amazing! Thank you so much for typing that all up for us!

Sent from my XT907 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Threnjen - that is an excellent explanation. I have been trying to educate myself on water chemistry and your post was very well done and easy to follow compared to other stuff I've seen!!

Touchofgrey - do you know how your total ammonia got so high? From the comments in your posts it doesn't appear that your in the middle of cycling the tank but is that what's going on? If not you really need to find the source of the ammonia. Could there be a dead fish that you haven't found as was mentioned above? Are your two canister filters adequate for your tank? Did you do anything with the filter media recently? Something must be causing a spike and you need to figure out what it is so the problem can be corrected. Also, what temp do you keep your tank? If it is higher than the the 78F assumption that threnjen used than the free ammonia is going to be higher and more dangerous.
 
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