Unhappy about this.

[jetajockey]

I understand it's easy to get emotional over inaccurate information, but come on. It doesn't give anyone the right to call them idiots. They are just writing out an old school ideology of fishkeeping, and they are likely regurgitating info found other places. In reality, it happens here all the time as well, except everyone is on a different crusading bandwagon.

It's easy to state your opinion when you know you have a group of like-minded individuals backing you, the only downside is that everyone ends up agreeing to the same things whether they be accurate or not, they agree based on common acceptance of their peers.

Fishkeeping may get a more serious look, but it'll probably be for economical reasons rather than animal rights. Fish aren't seen the same as other household pets, and they never will be, for good reason. One big point is that they are food, you can go into most household cupboards and find at least one canned fish product, try doing that with another household pet.


Fish-in cycling can be done safely, if done correctly. That site doesn't give even a remotely accurate way of doing it.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I understand it's easy to get emotional over inaccurate information, but come on. It doesn't give anyone the right to call them idiots. They are just writing out an old school ideology of fishkeeping, and they are likely regurgitating info found other places. In reality, it happens here all the time as well, except everyone is on a different crusading bandwagon.

It's easy to state your opinion when you know you have a group of like-minded individuals backing you, the only downside is that everyone ends up agreeing to the same things whether they be accurate or not, they agree based on common acceptance of their peers.

Fishkeeping may get a more serious look, but it'll probably be for economical reasons rather than animal rights. Fish aren't seen the same as other household pets, and they never will be, for good reason. One big point is that they are food, you can go into most household cupboards and find at least one canned fish product, try doing that with another household pet.


Fish-in cycling can be done safely, if done correctly. That site doesn't give even a remotely accurate way of doing it.

I couldn't agree more... very well put. While cycling with fish isn't the ideal way to do things, if other options can be done... it does work and was the only accepted way for a very long time

 

[jetajockey]

I couldn't agree more... very well put. While cycling with fish isn't the ideal way to do things, if other options can be done... it does work and was the only accepted way for a very long time

I think cycling with fish can be done just as easily as fishless cycling, the only difference is more frequent water changes, but a new hobbyist is going to be obsessively testing and etc anyway, so they might as well if they are up for it. The biggest difference between my methods and the old school method is that I don't look at fish as objects to use for that purpose, as in throwing a few feeders in and waiting it out.

My goal is to cycle the tank with a fish that is not only surviving but thriving through the entire process.

 

[adadkins1]

I couldn't agree more... very well put. While cycling with fish isn't the ideal way to do things, if other options can be done... it does work and was the only accepted way for a very long time

This is very true. There has been a huge change in fish keeping in the past 20 or 30 years. This site is made up of what I would call "New Age" fish keepers. These older fish keepers never knew anything about the nitrogen cycle, fish stocking, and the like. So I agree that we shouldn't call them idiots, they are just trying to help people...even though it is really hurting.

 

[adadkins1]

Jeta, I can tell you that I did part of my 10g's cycle with 3 platies, and I think they were thriving throughout the process. My fishless cycle had stalled when ammonia was 0, but nitrites were still present. Put the fish in and my cycle was done in no time. The fish were healthy too, no signs of nitrite poisoning and just as active as they could be.

 

[eco23]

I think the problem in many cases with novice fish keepers is lack of education and often the absence of the commitment it takes to maintain the wellbeing of their fish through the cycling process. You can see on the site every day where a member joins with no knowledge of cycling, fish dying, ammo through the roof...and the first thing we do is link HN1's article and explain the importance of keeping the parameters within acceptable ranges. Often, 2 days later the same member is back posting results with the same excessive levels of toxins, because they didn't have the time or commitment for the necessary pwc's. I've never called anyone on this site an idiot...but when it comes to living animals...there is nothing wrong with trying to "idiot-proof" the experience as much as possible IMO.

 

[adadkins1]

I had to do PWC's every other day or so when I fish-in cycled. It is a lot of work, and most new people to the hobby don't have the patience and just want to throw fish in their tank and look at them.

 

[Maya]

I agree completely. And while I am all for learning from experienced aquarists, I also maintain that nobody knows everything. And those that know better.. Do better. And I'm not talking about taking advice that has no basis in fact and is instead regurgitated "that is that way I do it so it must be right" advice. Call me new age if you like but my goal during my fish keeping is to continue to learn and to at best to do no harm. If I find information or have experience that "fish in cycling" does more harm than fishless... You can be sure that i will take every measure to take the appropriate action. I'm not going to throw in a few feeder fish to cycle my tank any sooner than I am going to tie a cat to a stake to call in coyotes. Others may do as they like, without judgement from me. And I am really the only person I am interested in policing in any way.

 

[Rosenweiss]

I should have said ignorant rather than idiots, I do apologize for allowing my emotions to get too involved.

 

[ejaramillo01]

Perfect

I understand it's easy to get emotional over inaccurate information, but come on. It doesn't give anyone the right to call them idiots. They are just writing out an old school ideology of fishkeeping, and they are likely regurgitating info found other places. In reality, it happens here all the time as well, except everyone is on a different crusading bandwagon.

It's easy to state your opinion when you know you have a group of like-minded individuals backing you, the only downside is that everyone ends up agreeing to the same things whether they be accurate or not, they agree based on common acceptance of their peers.

Fishkeeping may get a more serious look, but it'll probably be for economical reasons rather than animal rights. Fish aren't seen the same as other household pets, and they never will be, for good reason. One big point is that they are food, you can go into most household cupboards and find at least one canned fish product, try doing that with another household pet.


Fish-in cycling can be done safely, if done correctly. That site doesn't give even a remotely accurate way of doing it.

My hat off to you ! Perfectly said!

 

[BillD]

Why wouldn't you have that option? I've never bought fish unless I have had a tank ready. And I have never bought a pet without researching its behaviors and needs. Just curious as to what situation would precipitate that?

Many times I have brought fish home from a club meeting, that I hadn't expected to acquire. Some I bought because they were good deals, some were won as in "fish in a bag", and others were given to me. I don't like to put new fish into tanks with other fish, and most of my tanks are species tanks, so basically they go into quarantine. Sometimes it's temporary, and others it will be permanent. Regardless, I always have a few empty tanks and I am prepared to do the work that may be required. Sometimes I have a seasoned filter others I don't. As I said before, I have yet to lose a fish to this.
There are cases, especially in planted tanks where with a light fish load, a cycle can occur without any real readings. This is sometimes called a "soft cycle", a term I first heard on this site.

 

[HN1]

Yeah... but the problem is, this site appears to be legitimate, I would have followed its advice as a newbie. They have freshwater and saltwater sections and pages of advice on all sorts of things from choosing fish to hardware. That's why it's so dangerous.

The chains have a whole lot more "visitors" that receive that same advice. Sadly, bad sources of information easy outnumber quality info sources.

Many times I have brought fish home from a club meeting, that I hadn't expected to acquire. Some I bought because they were good deals, some were won as in "fish in a bag", and others were given to me. I don't like to put new fish into tanks with other fish, and most of my tanks are species tanks, so basically they go into quarantine. Sometimes it's temporary, and others it will be permanent. Regardless, I always have a few empty tanks and I am prepared to do the work that may be required. Sometimes I have a seasoned filter others I don't. As I said before, I have yet to lose a fish to this.
There are cases, especially in planted tanks where with a light fish load, a cycle can occur without any real readings. This is sometimes called a "soft cycle", a term I first heard on this site.

I'm as much an advocate as anyone for a fishless cycle, but I also completely agree with this. We regularly receive up to a thousand fish at once and tank them. It's a matter of preparation, experience, and acceptance of added work. I think we tend to be a tad over-conservative based on the likelihood of someone new here trying things they shouldn't.

 

[eco23]

Let's not lose site that all of us on this particular thread are experienced hobbyists that have a pretty decent idea of what we're doing. The recommendations of the store employees and websites that we are refuting and (somewhat) defending are targeted towards first time fish keepers.

There are obviously numerous safe ways to cycle a tank. I just bought a new 6.6 gallon over the weekend that I'll simply be transferring media over to. However, in my personal opinion...if a first time fish keeper is going to experience and view the nitrogen cycle first hand without necessarily having the commitment to do the water changes, I'd rather they learned about it and experimented with an empty tank before introducing fish.

 

[jetajockey]

There are obviously numerous safe ways to cycle a tank. I just bought a new 6.6 gallon over the weekend that I'll simply be transferring media over to. However, in my personal opinion...if a first time fish keeper is going to experience and view the nitrogen cycle first hand without necessarily having the commitment to do the water changes, I'd rather they learned about it and experimented with an empty tank before introducing fish.

That's your opinion, though. It's my opinion that if someone learns enough to do a fishless cycle properly, i.e. proper testing, etc, then they could just as easily learn to do a fish-in cycle properly as well.

I think most have the coherence to make that choice for themselves without a push in either direction.

I feel like there is a tendency here to dumb it down a little too much, and making big assumptions about new fishkeepers that aren't necessarily true. Just the fact that they come here looking for help means that they have some level of commitment established already.

The problem is that many people already have the cart before the horse, as in, they have stock already, which obviously complicates everything. That said, I do like that there is direction to the 'what do i do now' thread rather then a constant barrage of 'go take your fish back' replies.

 

[eco23]

I feel like there is a tendency here to dumb it down a little too much, and making big assumptions about new fishkeepers that aren't necessarily true. Just the fact that they come here looking for help means that they have some level of commitment established already.

The problem is that many people already have the cart before the horse, as in, they have stock already, which obviously complicates everything. That said, I do like that there is direction to the 'what do i do now' thread rather then a constant barrage of 'go take your fish back' replies.

I definitely agree with that part and I have changed my view over time. If someone has shown the commitment to join the site, chances are their fish will be better of being in their care rather than facing an uncertain future back at the pet store.

In my opinion though, as I said before, I see no problem with "idiot proofing" things as much as possible when it comes to many novices who often don't even know their own commitment level when they plan on keeping fish.

 

[tlkng1]

Maybe what hobbysits need to do is write to tank manufacturers, Perfecto, Oceanic, Aqueon, and have them include a pamphlet of some sort about proper cycling and fishkeeping procedures. They have the instruction manuals in there on how to put together the equipment but no instructions on how to actually properly care for the eventual inhabitants beyond temp and feeding once a day.

I guess the biggest problem would be to get people to actually read the information.

 

[HN1]

I definitely agree with that part and I have changed my view over time. If someone has shown the commitment to join the site, chances are their fish will be better of being in their care rather than facing an uncertain future back at the pet store.

In my opinion though, as I said before, I see no problem with "idiot proofing" things as much as possible when it comes to many novices who often don't even know their own commitment level when they plan on keeping fish.

But what's to say that the person you are advising is not already knowledgeable though? There a a bunch of very experienced people that don't belong to forums. Think about how they might be greeted if they first post a thread about new fish. New here doesn't necessarily equal new to fish. I don't think anyone should decide for others how much or what information is needed. "Idiot proofing" is a scary term if you don't know your audience.

 

[adadkins1]

But what's to say that the person you are advising is not already knowledgeable though? There a a bunch of very experienced people that don't belong to forums. Think about how they might be greeted if they first post a thread about new fish. New here doesn't necessarily equal new to fish. I don't think anyone should decide for others how much or what information is needed. "Idiot proofing" is a scary term if you don't know your audience.

Couldn't have said it better. Many times members, myself included, will think "New Member" = I have no idea about fish. This causes many people to get a not so warm welcome.

 

[eco23]

But what's to say that the person you are advising is not already knowledgeable though? There a a bunch of very experienced people that don't belong to forums. Think about how they might be greeted if they first post a thread about new fish. New here doesn't necessarily equal new to fish. I don't think anyone should decide for others how much or what information is needed. "Idiot proofing" is a scary term if you don't know your audience.

The term might be harsh, but I stand by the message. I also don't see people attacked (at least not by myself) when they first post other than occasionally being asked if their tank is cycled.

I link your cycling article (literally) about 5 times a day...those are the type of hobbyists I am referring to who were most likely uninformed about what goes into the hobby.

 

[jetajockey]

Maybe what hobbysits need to do is write to tank manufacturers, Perfecto, Oceanic, Aqueon, and have them include a pamphlet of some sort about proper cycling and fishkeeping procedures. They have the instruction manuals in there on how to put together the equipment but no instructions on how to actually properly care for the eventual inhabitants beyond temp and feeding once a day.

I guess the biggest problem would be to get people to actually read the information.

The other issue is that many of these companies are tied in to the ones that provide stuff like bottled bacteria, so it wouldnt be in their best interest to do so