"Fishless" cycle myth.

[thepirate]

chimp!!...............sorry, somebody had to say it!!

 

[Jchillin]

The article referenced doesn't mention cycling at all...or did I miss something?

 

[RLG2182]

Well, I am a fan of the fact that science cannot solve everything, and sometimes taking advice from people with experience can do wonders. In an earlier post, you had mentioned your bad "luck" with fish.

Timeline is two days to two weeks+. I've lost 1 flame angel, three clowns, 2 LM blennies, 2 tangs, 3 chromis. Each was introduced one at a time except the chromis. They went in as a trio.

Each death had the same MO. Fine for a while and then for no apparent reason - 1-2 days of swimming in the same place and then death. I'm convinced I have some kind is parasite. Water is fine and so are my inverts.

I'm not trying to say you don't know what you're doing, because obviously there is more than one way to do things, but from what I read, that's eleven deaths that could've possibly been prevented by using methods that go against old-fashioned traditions. Could they have been spared with one or two shrimp?

Like it or not, emotions cannot be kept from this discussion since most of us here consider our fish pets, like others have mentioned. The cost of replacing dead fish cannot be the only motivating factor to use shrimp... in the end, unless we as a society stop capturing fish and return them to the wild, captive fish in our tanks cannot survive without our proper care, so we therefore treat them like pets with feelings, because... we can.

The fishless cycle is not a myth. It is proven, it is tested, and it works. It can save the life of a fish, resulting in potentially thousands of saved fishes nation(world)wide if hobbyists were to just use shrimp, or even LR/LS to cycle their tanks. Just out of curiosity, what spurred you to post this thread in the first place? It is definitely a helpful post for people to do research on... but I'm wondering if it was the recent research that came out, or some other motivating factor that instigated this.

 

[runway1]

Yes you're right BillyZ; just an example.

Phyl, I must correct you. I cycled my tank losing 2 out of 10 damsels which, I could argue, is a normal attrition rate anyhow. what you're referring to is my post-cycle problems. Fish I've lost weeks after the cycle.

Speaking of which; I went to a "coral" store who has the healthiest assortment of corals I've ever seen. I described my problem and after several questions she says, "I think you're starving your fish. i only feed brine shrimp...!". Since then, I introduced a group of Chromis and feed them brine shrimp and bada-bing! No fish loss!! Can you believe it??

I've posted my problem on this board three times. I've posted on reefcentral.com as well and nobody asked me what I was feeding. The lady said, "You're loosing algae eaters. Don't introduce algae eaters in a 2 month old tank - there isn't sufficient algae and frozen isn't the same. Try carnivores and feed brine shrimp". 100 posts later, the lady in the store set me straight. Whew!

That's not to say in the mean time, I've exchanged many good pieces of info on this board and rely on its info to a great extent. Just didn't hit on my biggest problem, that's all. BTW, my corals are great!!

I thank all of you for your constructive posts - and criticisms. they each contribute to learning. And Phyl, I listen to your opinions very closely. Thanks again.

 

[runway1]

Jchillin,
Where did I say the article had ANYTHING to do with cycling?? Or, did I miss something?

 

[runway1]

RLG2182
Read my post just after yours. My problem was not a cycle problem. Besides, I'm aggreeing 100% with your arguments.

That's part of my point here; Jumping to conclusions, mis-associating facts, dis-associating facts, etc.

1. My problem was LONG into post-cycle
2. The article IS NOT an association with cycling, it's just a similar example.
3. thepirate is making a poor effort at insults, which is a bit too primative for me.

Let's just stick to the core statements and their context.

 

[Jchillin]

Ah, from the thread title: "Fishless" cycle myth. I didn't jump to any conclusions, you did say the ariticle was about lobsters.

 

[runway1]

Jchillin,
Seems to be a bad title, maybe. My term "myth" is meant to argue that "pain and suffering" of a fish cycle was myth. Not that a fishless cycle doesn't work, obviously it does. I wouldn't argue that

 

[Jchillin]

I edited the above post to include the fact that the article had nothing to do with cycling. And I thank you for clearing up the myth issue.

 

[fishfreek]

Dictionary
pain (pān) pronunciation
n.

1. An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.
2. Suffering or distress.
3. pains The pangs of childbirth.
4. pains Great care or effort: take pains with one's work.
5. Informal. A source of annoyance; a nuisance.


v., pained, pain·ing, pains.

v.tr.

To cause pain to; hurt or injure.
v.intr.

To be the cause of pain.
idiom:

on (or under) pain of

Subject to the penalty of (a specified punishment, such as death).

[Middle English, from Old French peine, from Latin poena, penalty, pain, from Greek poinē, penalty.]

SYNONYMS pain, ache, pang, smart, stitch, throe, twinge. These nouns denote a sensation of severe physical discomfort: abdominal pain; aches in my leg; the pangs of a cramped muscle; aspirin that alleviated the smart; a stitch in my side; the throes of dying; a twinge of arthritis.

Given the above I say with out a shaddow of doubt that fish feel pain IMO. Its common knowlege what signs of fish distress look like and as one who did cycle with fish before he knew better I can tell you fish are distressed when ammonia levels climb high as is often the case in a cycling tank.

 

[Phyl]

and feed them brine shrimp

Brine shrimp is the potato chip of the fishie world. That isn't going to sustain your fish in the long haul. I'd try some Formula 1/2/Prime Reef. That's pretty good stuff. Add in a little selcon once a week and you've got it made.

Hopefully you've found your solution. A varied diet is always the best course for your fish.

 

[thepirate]

runway1

your original post was very primative imo, did you expect anything else in return?

i am setting up my tank as a hobby, not as a science project!!

goodnight!!.........hopefully there will be more informative posts in the morning.

 

[runway1]

thepirate,
Of all the posts in response, NONE except YOU have resorted to insults. Seems most all keep a level of civility. Thanks anyhow, son.

 

[malkore]

It appears the original poster has taken a news article (which may not have its facts clear...this is Fox news after all), pulling it out of context, to use as a way to rational his choice to cycle with fish.

If you say it's ok to subject fish to a cycle because 'they don't feel pain'...then by the same token, its ok to kick or punch people who are para/quadreplegics...because 'hey, they can't feel it...no harm done'. As long as you can sell yourself on the idea, it won't bother you, and you can shrug off responsibility.

Sure my example is extreme...but extreme examples have a way of dissolving screwy theories.

 

[reefrunner69]

Speaking of which; I went to a "coral" store who has the healthiest assortment of corals I've ever seen. I described my problem and after several questions she says, "I think you're starving your fish. i only feed brine shrimp...!". Since then, I introduced a group of Chromis and feed them brine shrimp and bada-bing! No fish loss!! Can you believe it??

How long do you figure it takes a fish to starve to death?

 

[runway1]

Kevin,
Not sure really. Still testing the suggestion. And Phyl has another good point - I'm feeding cookie treats so I better get to real food soon. At least they're eating something now.

Despite the impression that I'm a cold, unfeeling aquarist, that's not the case. If it's true that my fish problem stems from the combination of stress/starvation, that makes me feel pretty bad not to mention the ignorance involved.

Converting from years of FW is almost like starting with no experience at all. I'm learning fast and enjoying it. My wife, two sons and I really feel bad for the fish I've lost, believe me. I also found a water source problem (no wonder it was sooooo cheap!). I'm changing my water source and my feeding is still being scrutinized. I think I'm on the road to success now.

 

[reefrunner69]

It should take weeks to months for a healthy fish to starve to death, obviously irreversible damage is done to the fish long before then, but it does take it along time to starve. From the brief glance I've given this thread...I do not believe your fish died from starvation, the fact that you cycled with fish (while an archane idea to me) may have quite a bit to do with why your fish died. The toxic environemnt you put the fish in leads to stress, stress leads to disease, if you believe your fish had ich, it could be indirectly from the cycle as the stress induced to the fish caused the infestation in the first place and/or lack of quarantine.

 

[Steppa]

Actually, if everyone looks at how the discussion is going, this could be a really interesting topic. I just think it was started in the wrong way.

So, let me start out by saying that I would NEVER cycle my tank with fish. And it sounds like MOST people agree that they wouldn't cycle a tank with fish also.

Now, lets change the focus of this discussion to "Do fish feel pain?". I don't have any 'proof' and/or research or studies to point out as examples but, for the sake of arguement, one could explain that the response of a fish to "stressful" or "painful" situations is a survival instinct (sp?) and NOT a pain response.

 

[runway1]

Excellent point, Steppa and I totally agree. Also, in hind sight, If I were to start a second tank I would use another method to cycle. Simply because of the many excellent reasons why not to use fish.

Do fish feel "pain"? I tend to think not, for several scientific reasons. But would I use them for another tank cycle? No, again for many intelligent reasons.

 

[midiman]

OK, try this. What is a fish feeling when it rubs on gravel and on the bottom when it has an ich infestation?

What difference does it make what you call it? It is OBVIOUS that the fish is trying to remedy a situation that is unpleasant for it.

No need to anthropomorphise everything in order to understand it. Survival? Instinct? Pain? What difference does it make waht we call it?