Might have done. High ammonia can kill the bacteria you are trying to grow. Another possibility is that you have used up all the carbonate hardness and the cycle has stalled and needs a water change to replenish the KH.
Fishless cycle help
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Jebbyfishman
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We dont know that KH is a problem, its just speculation. There are tests for KH and your pH dropping is a sign of KH depletion.
The bacteria you are trying to grow uses oxygen and KH in the process of cycling out ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. You are dosing far higher amounts of ammonia with a fishless cycle than would be the case with fish in the tank, so KH gets depleted quicker with a fishless cycle than would be the case when the tank is operating normally. If you have soft, acidic water or your fishless cycle takes a long time, its common for the KH to run out and stall the cycling process. A water change is a common fix for a stalled cycle.
Id actually do another 25% water change, get the ammonia down to around 2ppm.
Your plants are pretty much bullet proof. Just make sure you dont bury the rhyzome as it can cause the plant to rot. Tie or superglue the rhyzome to a rock, piece of driftwood or a plant weight and just place it in the tank. Also, plantmelt is normal, and is the process of the planted transitioning from emersed growth to submerged growth. So dont panic if you see the plants dying. You may lose all the original growth, but look for new growth over time.
The bacteria you are trying to grow uses oxygen and KH in the process of cycling out ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. You are dosing far higher amounts of ammonia with a fishless cycle than would be the case with fish in the tank, so KH gets depleted quicker with a fishless cycle than would be the case when the tank is operating normally. If you have soft, acidic water or your fishless cycle takes a long time, its common for the KH to run out and stall the cycling process. A water change is a common fix for a stalled cycle.
Id actually do another 25% water change, get the ammonia down to around 2ppm.
Your plants are pretty much bullet proof. Just make sure you dont bury the rhyzome as it can cause the plant to rot. Tie or superglue the rhyzome to a rock, piece of driftwood or a plant weight and just place it in the tank. Also, plantmelt is normal, and is the process of the planted transitioning from emersed growth to submerged growth. So dont panic if you see the plants dying. You may lose all the original growth, but look for new growth over time.
Jebbyfishman
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Did the new 25 percent water when you said it. Dropped me to 1.5 ammonia and 0.5 nitrite. Got my ph up to 6.5. Put 4 dr tim ammonia drops in and now the last couple days am at 4 ammonia, 1 nitrite and my ph has been dropping from 6.5 to now 5.5. Wondering if I should just start over from scratch and do a 75 percent water change.
By all means do a 75% water change, but i wouldnt start from scratch. You are seeing nitrite on your test so you have some beneficial bacteria and throwing that away wont help anything.
Whats probably happening is your water has low KH. As said the nitrogen cycle uses up KH and then stops functioning. You also lose all your buffering which leads to the pH crash you are seeing. If you start over you will just run into the same problem. A 25% water change will replenish KH to a level of 25% of whatever comes out of your tap. If thats not a lot to start with, then 25% is even less.
I would first try and find out what the KH out of your tap. There are tests, but your water company should be able to tell you. There are often reports available online.
2 options to consider.
1. Do something about your low KH. Get some crushed coral. Either put some in a media bag and put it in your filtration, or mix a little on your substrate. The calcium carbonate will slowly disolve in the water and buffer the water, maintain KH levels, and stabilise your pH.
2. You might want to switch to a fish in cycle. We get a lot of new members struggling to cycle tanks. By far more people have issues with fishless cycles than fish in cycles. Almost every time switching to a fish in cycle resolves this. Do 100% water change, get your fish and do a fish in cycle properly. You will be dealing with much lower amounts of ammonia than you are dosing and you wont see the KH dropping so rapidly. Along witha regular water change schedule may well see you overcome your problem. Also, ammonia in acidic water in non-toxic ammonium.
You may want to consider options 1 and 2 together.
Another thing to consider is 2.5g is a tiny tank, even for 1 betta. Small volumes are very challenging to maintain, with low KH even more so. A bigger tank, with more water will be less subject to these water parameter swings.
Whats probably happening is your water has low KH. As said the nitrogen cycle uses up KH and then stops functioning. You also lose all your buffering which leads to the pH crash you are seeing. If you start over you will just run into the same problem. A 25% water change will replenish KH to a level of 25% of whatever comes out of your tap. If thats not a lot to start with, then 25% is even less.
I would first try and find out what the KH out of your tap. There are tests, but your water company should be able to tell you. There are often reports available online.
2 options to consider.
1. Do something about your low KH. Get some crushed coral. Either put some in a media bag and put it in your filtration, or mix a little on your substrate. The calcium carbonate will slowly disolve in the water and buffer the water, maintain KH levels, and stabilise your pH.
2. You might want to switch to a fish in cycle. We get a lot of new members struggling to cycle tanks. By far more people have issues with fishless cycles than fish in cycles. Almost every time switching to a fish in cycle resolves this. Do 100% water change, get your fish and do a fish in cycle properly. You will be dealing with much lower amounts of ammonia than you are dosing and you wont see the KH dropping so rapidly. Along witha regular water change schedule may well see you overcome your problem. Also, ammonia in acidic water in non-toxic ammonium.
You may want to consider options 1 and 2 together.
Another thing to consider is 2.5g is a tiny tank, even for 1 betta. Small volumes are very challenging to maintain, with low KH even more so. A bigger tank, with more water will be less subject to these water parameter swings.
Last edited:
Jebbyfishman
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Hi again. So I did a 50 percent water change after the time we talked. And I did abother 25 percent water change 2 days ago after I felt like my cycle stalled again with high ammonia low ph and minimal nitrite. I also ordered a KH and GH test kit. It arrived today and my tank KH is 0-1.
I am motivated to make my small tank work given the size of my apartment and want 2 shrimp and maybe a snail. Might add some more plants too. They seem to be still working out.
I am starting to think my tap water might be the culprit of my stalled cycles. Tap water after conditioner put in and waiting 24 hours:
Ph 6.8 (i think the time I got 9 I was wrong) it’s consistently been 6.8-7 since.
KH 4
GH 17
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
My thought is maybe starting over with all bottled spring water. Maybe my KH will be high enough with that to not deplete too quickly. Unless you think crushed coral would solve my tap water problem. But I was reading crushed coral doesn’t do much when GH is really high and I know my city tap has crazy high hardness.
I am motivated to make my small tank work given the size of my apartment and want 2 shrimp and maybe a snail. Might add some more plants too. They seem to be still working out.
I am starting to think my tap water might be the culprit of my stalled cycles. Tap water after conditioner put in and waiting 24 hours:
Ph 6.8 (i think the time I got 9 I was wrong) it’s consistently been 6.8-7 since.
KH 4
GH 17
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
My thought is maybe starting over with all bottled spring water. Maybe my KH will be high enough with that to not deplete too quickly. Unless you think crushed coral would solve my tap water problem. But I was reading crushed coral doesn’t do much when GH is really high and I know my city tap has crazy high hardness.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
You are correct that the crushed coral will not do much until the Ph falls into the acidic range. The lower the range, the more calcium will be released.
Your water's Ph is part of the "problem" but the problem is that it will take longer to cycle the tank because of it. That's only a problem if you have fish immediately needing a tank or you have no patience.
Optimal Ph for nitrification is 8.0 so a Ph of 6.8 -70 means your bacteria will just work more slowly. Think of it as a race. Instead of the bacteria running at 50 miles per hour, they are running at 20 miles per hour. The key is that they are still running, just slower. Cycling a tank can take months because of the water parameters ( Ph and KH). It won't matter how much bacteria you add, under your conditions, they are not going to grow faster. :^s
Here's what I would do: Since your tap water has a Kh of 4 and your tank has a Kh of 0-1 and you have no livestock beside the plants, I would do a large water change ( 75%-80% ) and test ( a few hours later) that your KH has gone up to 4. Assuming it is up to 4, test the tank water every other day to see when the KH starts reducing. If the KH is not falling during the first week, do a small water change to help keep the Ph up. If you see the KH falling in say, 2-3 days, you need to do water changes every 2 -3 days to keep it up. If it happens every 4-5 days, again, you need to change enough water to bring it back up to 4 every 4-5 days. You can add your ammonia source during this time but personally, I wouldn't until you see how often you need to do your water changes. You'd just be throwing money down the drain. Once you have the water change schedule set and you are adding the ammonia, you should see the ammonia start to come down, I expect, slowly. You would just need to wait it out.
Another option is to get some spring water and test for Ph and KH. If the Ph is 8.0 or higher and the KH is higher than 4, you can change the water to the spring water. That will speed up the whole process but you still need to monitor the KH of the spring water and do water changes to keep it up.
Hope this helps.
Your water's Ph is part of the "problem" but the problem is that it will take longer to cycle the tank because of it. That's only a problem if you have fish immediately needing a tank or you have no patience.
Optimal Ph for nitrification is 8.0 so a Ph of 6.8 -70 means your bacteria will just work more slowly. Think of it as a race. Instead of the bacteria running at 50 miles per hour, they are running at 20 miles per hour. The key is that they are still running, just slower. Cycling a tank can take months because of the water parameters ( Ph and KH). It won't matter how much bacteria you add, under your conditions, they are not going to grow faster. :^s Here's what I would do: Since your tap water has a Kh of 4 and your tank has a Kh of 0-1 and you have no livestock beside the plants, I would do a large water change ( 75%-80% ) and test ( a few hours later) that your KH has gone up to 4. Assuming it is up to 4, test the tank water every other day to see when the KH starts reducing. If the KH is not falling during the first week, do a small water change to help keep the Ph up. If you see the KH falling in say, 2-3 days, you need to do water changes every 2 -3 days to keep it up. If it happens every 4-5 days, again, you need to change enough water to bring it back up to 4 every 4-5 days. You can add your ammonia source during this time but personally, I wouldn't until you see how often you need to do your water changes. You'd just be throwing money down the drain.
Once you have the water change schedule set and you are adding the ammonia, you should see the ammonia start to come down, I expect, slowly. You would just need to wait it out. Another option is to get some spring water and test for Ph and KH. If the Ph is 8.0 or higher and the KH is higher than 4, you can change the water to the spring water. That will speed up the whole process but you still need to monitor the KH of the spring water and do water changes to keep it up.
Hope this helps.
Jebbyfishman
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Thanks this helps a lot!
1. Got spring water and it’s ph 7, KH 4 and GH 2. So same as my tap water except softer GH. Is this water better to add crushed coral? I’m thinking I need something to help me prevent ph crashing frequently given my tank ph is 5.5.
2. I’m going to do the 80 percent water change and be checking for KH and not dosing ammonia. I assume KH will deplete even quicker when I start adding ammonia and the cycle is going.
3. How will I dose ammonia if I’m also doing water changes? Just figure out how much to add to get it to 2ppm?
1. Got spring water and it’s ph 7, KH 4 and GH 2. So same as my tap water except softer GH. Is this water better to add crushed coral? I’m thinking I need something to help me prevent ph crashing frequently given my tank ph is 5.5.
2. I’m going to do the 80 percent water change and be checking for KH and not dosing ammonia. I assume KH will deplete even quicker when I start adding ammonia and the cycle is going.
3. How will I dose ammonia if I’m also doing water changes? Just figure out how much to add to get it to 2ppm?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
So the spring water is no better than your tap water so why spend the money?
Your Ph crashes because of the low alkalinity ( KH) and at 7.0, the crushed coral is not going to do a whole heck of a lot or do it rapidly. Your Ph isn't low enough for speed.
You said your tap water Ph is 6.8-7.0 so doing the large water change will bring your Ph back up to the 6.8(ish) range. There are a couple of other options besides doing the water changes during cycling: 1: place a couple of sea shells in the tank as they are also made of calcium so as your Ph drops, they too will melt and release the calcium to raise your KH but it will also raise your PH.
Using them is a way to visually see they are melting and only need replacing after they are totally gone.) OR 2: add 1/8- 1/4 of a teaspoon of baking soda per 2 gallons of water to the water. That will raise your KH while not significantly raising your Ph. (It will go up but usually not as high as when using calcium based rock or shells.) By raising your KH, your Ph should not be dropping too much or too rapidly and if you go the baking soda route, you can eliminate the water changes during the cycling period. I do however recommend that you figure out how quickly your KH drops so that when you are past the cycling period, you use water changes to bring it back up vs just adding more baking soda. Fresh new water makes any fish tank a better place for it's inhabitants. Jebbyfishman
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Thanks again for all of the detail! Couple questions
1. What is the difference between crushed coral and crushed sea shell in aquariums. I thought they both kind of accomplish the same thing of dissolving and raising KH and ph as the water gets more acidic.
2. Does my high tap GH inhibit their effectiveness
I did an 80 percent water change last night and my KH is at 2 today. So gonna do more water changes until my KH is 4 and then check how long it takes to start dropping.
1. What is the difference between crushed coral and crushed sea shell in aquariums. I thought they both kind of accomplish the same thing of dissolving and raising KH and ph as the water gets more acidic.
2. Does my high tap GH inhibit their effectiveness
I did an 80 percent water change last night and my KH is at 2 today. So gonna do more water changes until my KH is 4 and then check how long it takes to start dropping.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
You are correct that they are both made from calcium carbonate but I said to add a couple of shells which is going to be a bit different from adding crushed shells. A whole shell will be of one animal ( I suggest getting a clam shell) versus a combination of shell bits that may or may not have similar amounts of Calcium Carbonate in them. It will serve the duel purpose of decoration and hiding spot for your shrimps. You will be able to visually see if the shell is melting so you know it's working.
A high GH coupled with a higher Ph will reduce the need for the shell (s) to dissolve but GH alone will not prevent Ph from falling ( as you are witnessing) so the minerals in your water that make up the GH reading are not carbonate or bicarbonate based so they shouldn't really effect what you are trying to achieve. So what is happening is the because there is little to no Carbonate in your water, the Ph fluctuates and reduces. When it reaches too low, nitrification stops. If you use the shells and nothing to increase the carbonate/ bicarbonate level in the water, your Ph will fall until the shell(s) start to dissolve raising the Ph level. If you use the Baking Soda, you will be raising the carbonate/bicarbonate level in the water making it harder for the Ph to fall making nitrification more consistent. Once you have your shrimps and things in the tank, you don't want the water parameters to be changing too much which is why having the shell(s) in the tank will help keep that from happening. You just have to make sure you are not adding decorations or pads that can remove minerals ( i.e. wood or phosphate removers ).
There is another route you can go but it will depend on whether the animals you want to keep can live under the condition. If you add nothing to raise the KH, the Ph over time will reduce to under 6.0. Under 6.0, there is no nitrification and ammonia was converted to ammonium. By keeping the Ph under 6.0, there is no need to " cycle" the aquarium because there is no toxic ammonia or nitrite in the water and no nitrates being produced. The key is you need to keep the Ph under that 6.0 so that means doing very small water changes so that you do not raise the Ph. ( This is a little harder method to do when you don't have very acidic water so you would need to be very careful when doing water changes OR you use an acid to adjust the Ph of the water you are going to add as replacement water before adding it. )
So there is always a way.
Jebbyfishman
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So I got some decoration shells from petsmart. I know they are decor but they sure seem real haha. Put a few in the tank for KH and to have something to tie my plants to. I did a 80 percent water change and took out some but not all of the gravel at the bottom of the tank so that I’d have max water volume. Tested and my KH was 3-4 and PH of 6.8-7. Pretty much a day later KH was 0. I assume the shells will take some time. I added 4 drops ammonia to get it to 1ppm. I’ve been doing 1/2 liter water change every day to try to add a bit more KH and maintain ph. Gonna go from there and see what happens. Maybe will add a bit more ammonia drops but I don’t wanna throw everything out of whack too quickly
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Are you sure the shells are natural and not man made ones?
Jebbyfishman
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It say natural sea shells on the description
Thing with shells is that they wont dissolve as quickly as crushed coral. Things that are broken up has more surface area and will dissolve quicker than something thats in larger pieces.
If KH is being used up quicker than the shells are dissolving they wont be of any benefit. Id actually consider the baking soda suggestion or something like seachem alkaline buffer.
Can you confirm what units you are reading your KH in. Is it degrees or ppm? Losing 4 dKH in 24 hours is a hell of a lot. Losing 4ppm is more understandable. Roughly 18ppm to 1 dKH.
If KH is being used up quicker than the shells are dissolving they wont be of any benefit. Id actually consider the baking soda suggestion or something like seachem alkaline buffer.
Can you confirm what units you are reading your KH in. Is it degrees or ppm? Losing 4 dKH in 24 hours is a hell of a lot. Losing 4ppm is more understandable. Roughly 18ppm to 1 dKH.
Jebbyfishman
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So it takes 3-4 drops of KH test to change my tap water color and it takes 1 drop to change my tank water so it seems like it’s degrees.
Will baking soda be bad for my plants in the tank? I was reading the plants don’t like the sodium
Will baking soda be bad for my plants in the tank? I was reading the plants don’t like the sodium
Jebbyfishman
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I just read that plants can leech carbonates when they don’t have other nutrients. Given my substrate is gravel maybe that’s what’s happening?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
" Thing with shells is that they wont dissolve as quickly as crushed coral." All depends on the type of shells. This is why I like Cherrystone or little neck Clam shells. They melt fast when the Ph falls.
That said, the KH loss IS rather quick. Makes me wonder if there is something else like wood ( or wood based) that are absorbing them out?
Jebbyfishman
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Hi guys. Wanted to give an update with all the time and help you’ve given me so far. Loads of good info. I think I’m very close to fully cycling. I started from scratch but have been doing a 10 percent water change every other day to replenish some KH. I’m past the ammonia cycle stage and it goes to 0 in 24 hours. Nitrite has been like 1.5ppm for about 2 weeks now. KH is about 1 degree. And ph has been in the 6.8-7.5 range the whole time. I’m expecting my nitrite to vanish any day now. Green algae bloom in progress as of 2 days ago. Thanks again.
My next question is gonna be more shrimps specific. I read an article about keeping shrimp. https://buceplant.com/a/amp-1/blogs/aquascaping-guides-and-tips/a-beginners-guide-to-keeping-shrimp
They also happen to be based in my city. They advise against keeping shrimp in groups smaller than 10 and against keeping them in hard water. Any thoughts on this?
My next question is gonna be more shrimps specific. I read an article about keeping shrimp. https://buceplant.com/a/amp-1/blogs/aquascaping-guides-and-tips/a-beginners-guide-to-keeping-shrimp
They also happen to be based in my city. They advise against keeping shrimp in groups smaller than 10 and against keeping them in hard water. Any thoughts on this?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Depends on the shrimp species you are considering. For example: https://www.theshrimpfarm.com/posts/neocaridina-shrimp-care-breeding/
and then there's this: https://www.theshrimpfarm.com/freshwateraquariumshrimp/caridina-shrimp.html
So the water parameters are going to differ by species. I would not keep shrimp in very hard water tho. As you can see by the parameters in these pages, some can handle mildly hard water not very hard water.
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