27gal fishless cycle - stalled???

[yukyuks]

since im nearly at my wits end this was my only way of getting help.

i am on day 4.5 of my first fishless cycle, my ammonia is not dropping at all, in fact its skyrocketed.

param:
ph 7.5
Ammonia is 10.2
(day 1 was 4.8, day 2 was 5.0, day 3 was 7.0 (added no ammonia), day 4 is 9.8 and 6 hours later is now 10.2.
nitrate is 0
nitrite is 0

doing a 20% water change and will retest.
my lfs is telling me to add seachem "stability" but im holding off at the moment.

question is, am I doing something wrong? is there any other parameters to be watching?
im being patient but the tank had a massive sudden infestation of internal parasites and I lost 18 of 23 guppies, 4 of 9 platys and 6 of 6 neon tetras, and 3 of 4 plecos

my LFS had me tear down the 27gal/100L tank, put all surviving fish into a 20gal hospital tank and treat with praquil, melafix, pimafix, general cure, and tetracycline. while they are being treated they had me run a bleach cycle in the big tank at 18:1 water/bleach for 36 hours, then a cleaning cycle with fresh water/RO water at 1:1 for 48 hours, drain, then another 1:1 cycle but at 4 times the dose/gal of "prime" for 48 hours, then drain and start a fishless cycle as per this site article, at a 1:1 with 2 times dose/gal of "prime" and add pure ammonia as per the fishless cycling article.

 

[blert]

4 days is not enough time for any significant change. Do water changes to reduce the ammonia to 4ppm at most. Test daily, if ammonia has not moved do not add more. It will take a week or more probably. Then it will be another 2-3 weeks, at best, to get through the nitrite phase.

IMO, that's way too many meds at once. Why did your LFS tell you to dose so many different meds? Do you know what wiped out your tank or are they just guessing at what to do?

 

[yukyuks]

they did smears on microscope slides. the 5 bodies had internal parasites, hole in head, fin/tail rot, body ulcers, and a few other nasties. the lfs had a vet check the results and it was her that handed me a print out of the medications to use and the dosing schedule.

all fishless cycle articles, and lfs, state that you have to add ammonia daily to keep boosting it to the 4-5ppm, the fact the ammonia suddenly spiked with no other parameter changes, and no added ammonia, has baffled everyone.

this 'could' occur, IF it does, at day 10-13 based on the parameters, not at day 3.
ammonia should be anywhere from 4-5ppm, with a small drop to 3ish.ppm daily, and adding ammonia to keep back up to 4-5ppm.

if i am adding my 9ml of ammonia a day, at 8:00pm, to keep it at 5ppm, is it supposed to rise so drastically by 9:00am?

 

[librarygirl]

You don't add ammonia daily until it starts to fall. Inititally you'd dose ammonia and then within a week or two, you should see it drop. When it drops below 2, redose enough to get it to 4. Eventually as the cycle progresses ammonia will drop to 0 after 24 hours and you'd dose it again to get it to 4.

9 ML of ammonia is way too much. For a 27 gal tank to dose to 4 ppms (assuming you're starting with 0) you'd need about 4 mls (assuming your ammonia strength is 9.5%; it should have the info on the bottle). I just think you're dosing too much ammonia.

Test your tap water for ammomia too, make sure there's nothing in it that can add to the final total. If not I'd drain the tank and refill. Let the filters run, check the tank again in a few hours. If ammonia is still over 4, do another water change. Repeat until you can get ammonia down to about 4.

Your other fish seem pretty sick. I hope they make it. Just keep an eye on parameters in the tank they are in; if that tank isn't cycled either the ammonia or/and nitrite levels are going to rise which is just going to add to their issues.

 

[yukyuks]

these are the instructions i was given, and they meet the same instructions as 20+ other fishless cycling instructions - ive bolded the parts everyone has commented on. Looking at #7, my ammonia level is going UP, not down.

Do the following:
1. Setup your tank gravel, decorations, filters and airlines.
2. Fill the tank completely with treated (dechlorinated and dechloraminated) water.
3. Turn on your filtration system and air pump devices.
4. Turn your Heater on and set to 84F, check your tank thermometer after a few hours to verify the tank water temperature is between 83 and 84F
5. The first time you add ammonia, add small quantities (about 1/4 to 1/2 capful) slowly and test after you add each time (give it 3 to 5 minutes in between to circulate before your test) until you get an ammonia test reading of around 5ppm (mine is 9ml @ 10% solution which equals 1-2ml of 'pure' ammonia). The reason you have to add ammonia this way is because most ammonia bottles are diluted with water at different ratios. Markdown or remember the total amount (capfuls) (2.75 capfuls in my case) it took to get to 5ppm for your tank volume.
6. Every day, once a day, add the total amount of ammonia that it took to bring your tank ammonia test kit to 5ppm. Do this till the very end of the nitrite cycle.
7. It will take about 3-5 days for your ammonia levels to go to 0ppm after 24 hours, and the first of the two bacteria cycles to complete.
8. Keep adding the ammonia (same amount and every day, once a day) until your nitrite levels become 0pmm after 24 hours, which can take about 2 to 3 weeks time. The nitrite levels will spike for a longer time because the nitrite to nitrate processing bacteria take longer to grow than the ammonia to nitrite bacteria.
9. After the nitrite shows 0ppm (clear), change as much water as you can (leave they gravel/substrate/decorations in the tank) to get rid of the bulk of the nitrate buildup (you can use your nitrate test kit to confirm if you want). Don't 'clean' the tank or use sanitizers, just remove the bulk of the water and replace it with treated water.
10. Now you can fully stock your tank with fish, the 2nd cycle is complete! This means you can add as many fish as your tank size and filtration can manage.

 

[librarygirl]

Sorry but those are the weirdest fishless cycle instructions I have ever seen lol First it takes more than 3-5 minutes for the water to circulate evenly around the tank; testing 5 mins after dosing ammonia wouldn't give you accurate readings. Here's an ammonia calculator that tells you how much to add based on the percentage of ammonia you're using (scroll down a bit to the part where it says ammonia calculator) Calculator

The article above says nothing about tank size when dosing ammonia, which is important. Adding for example 2 mls of ammonia to a 10 gal tank would give you different readings than dosing in a 40 gal tank.

You also don't add ammonia once per day UNTIL ammonia starts dropping. Otherwise you're just adding to the ammonia in the tank and it'll just keep rising which will stall the cycle. It also takes more like 1-2 weeks (on average, without seeded media) to see the initial drop in ammonia, not 3-5 days.

Try this article instead: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

 

[blert]

Edited, removed. LibraryGirl has it under control and lately I have been coming across as harsh. Sorry.

 

[yukyuks]

Test your tap water for ammomia too, make sure there's nothing in it that can add to the final total. If not I'd drain the tank and refill. Let the filters run, check the tank again in a few hours. If ammonia is still over 4, do another water change. Repeat until you can get ammonia down to about 4.

Your other fish seem pretty sick. I hope they make it. Just keep an eye on parameters in the tank they are in; if that tank isn't cycled either the ammonia or/and nitrite levels are going to rise which is just going to add to their issues.

There no no ammonia in our tap water, and our area uses chlorine, not chloramines, at .025ppm. the 'prime' easily neutralizes this, and we do not have any heavy metals (one person pm'd me with this question)

ive done a massive water change at it is currently at 3.85ppm

all of my other fish have now recovered and i have 2 batches of fry born while in the hospital tank. although i lost one guppy today who was standing on her head at the bttm of the tank (3 days after completing treatment) and one fry who had a jacknifed spine. the vet gave me 5 vials of tetracycline (250mg daily for 3 days, 25% water change, and 2 more days of 250mg, then 50% water change and readd carbon and ammo-carb)

 

[yukyuks]

Sorry but those are the weirdest fishless cycle instructions I have ever seen lol First it takes more than 3-5 minutes for the water to circulate evenly around the tank; testing 5 mins after dosing ammonia wouldn't give you accurate readings. Here's an ammonia calculator that tells you how much to add based on the percentage of ammonia you're using (scroll down a bit to the part where it says ammonia calculator) Calculator

The article above says nothing about tank size when dosing ammonia, which is important. Adding for example 2 mls of ammonia to a 10 gal tank would give you different readings than dosing in a 40 gal tank.

You also don't add ammonia once per day UNTIL ammonia starts dropping. Otherwise you're just adding to the ammonia in the tank and it'll just keep rising which will stall the cycle. It also takes more like 1-2 weeks (on average, without seeded media) to see the initial drop in ammonia, not 3-5 days.

Try this article instead: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

im using that article you linked me to now. I used the previous method on my other 2 tanks and it went fine. took 12 days on my 17gal and 16 days on my 35gal.
now i know why things have stalled!!!!!

I used that calculator to get my 9ml's using Home hardware ammonia (which states 10% ammonia but it appears using the calculator its actually around 6-8%)

 

[librarygirl]

Why do you want to add 9 ml of ammonia? If I plug in your tank size into that calculator (27 US gal) and the amount of ammonia I want to dose to (4 ppm) and the percentage of ammonia from the bottle (10%) I get that 4.09 ml of ammonia should be added to the tank to get it to 4ppm. If you add 9 ml, the ammonia will go up to 8 ppm which is too high.