7 weeks, no cycle

[kmlong]

I've posted here many times and always get professional help from great people. Its 7 weeks today since i set up my tank and still no cycle. Ammonia is always at about 1 even, ph is good, alkaline good, everything else is safe. I've had constant ammonia readings since i set the tank up. I do 25% water changes about every two weeks and have not replaces the filter. I do rinse it in old water though. My water is crystal clear and the fish are healthy and seem stress free and very relaxed with huge appetites. I messed up a little while ago and rinsed the filter with tap and probly rinsed all my bacteria out too, thats before i knew about all this stuff. So maybe thats why its taking so long to cycle but that was like 4 weeks ago. The only other thing i can think of is in hopes of keeping the life of my filter longer, i take the cartridge out during feeding and put it back in when no traces of food are present, its not out more than 15 min. tops. I feed in the evenings, two feeding a day were proving to be too messy and clouding up my water. There is 9 fish in the tank which is a 20gal FW. 3 tetra's, 4 danio's, 1 guaramis, 1 Beta. I'm guessing i cant put too many more in for the size of the tank, maybe one or two more yet but till i get the ammonia down its probly not a good idea. Also, i had put carbon in my filter when i set up the tank. Does the original carbon have to stay in there until the tank cycles since it probly has bacteria on it? Should i change the carbon? thanks for everyones help.

 

[BrianNY]

What are you using to test for ammonia? Have you done any nitrite tests yet? A tank will and must cycle so I'm suspicious of your readings.

 

[couplescaddy]

get a product called "cycle" its all the bacteria you need. and its like 3 dollars.

 

[krap101]

i wouldnt. i used it and many others have and say it didnt work. waste of money imo

 

[ClamKnuckle]

What are you using to test for ammonia? Have you done any nitrite tests yet? A tank will and must cycle so I'm suspicious of your readings.

I agree with brian and would double check my tests with either a new test kit or taking a sample to a LFS

 

[kmlong]

I am using aquarium pharmaceutical liquid test kit for ammonia and Jungle test strips for everything else. I've heard the test strips are not reliable. I'm gonna take a sample to petsmart tomorrow but everytime i go down there that is what they use as well. My nitrites have been zero from day one and nitrates have been stuck on 40 from day one. How can i have nitrates if i never had nitrites? It is very strange.

 

[BrianNY]

At some point within those 7 weeks I'm sure you had nitrites. You don't have a very large fish load. I'm thinking your tank did what I call a quiet cycle and your fish never stressed over it.

Even though you feed only once a day, you might still be overfeeding. I'd reduce the quantity of food you feed and increase the water changes (with partial gravel vacs), to 25% every other day for a while. Your ammonia and nitrate levels should come down.

Leave the carbon in for a while.

HTH Brian

 

[TankGirl]

Also, don't take the filter out. Just leave it in there to do its job - when it gets clogged just use some spent tank water in a bucket and swish it around to get the gunk off. You want to do everything you can to protect the bacteria you have.

Also, what dechlorinator are you using? Sometimes they will react with your ammonia test and give a false positive ammonia reading.

 

[kmlong]

I've been wondering about the dechlorinator. I use stress coat. I got new liquid test kits instead of the dip strips. Turns out i do have a slight nitrite reading which is holding steady two days now between .25 and zero. Nitrate was at about 40 but yesterday i did a water change and now it is at about 15. The test strips didnt even show .25 for nitrite. So either im just starting nitrites or its coming down and going to nitrates. But this ammonia!!!! Tonight it was .50, last night it was 1, but i did that water change but that quick i've got ammonia back! How deep should i be reaching to take a water sample? I've been taking right off the top. And when do i know when to change this filter, its been in about a month but the water is clear.

 

[kmlong]

I just tried a little test. First I tested my tap water which is city water and there is no ammonia in it. Then i put new tap water in the vial and added a drop or two of the dechlorinator and continued with the test hoping to find that it would give me a positive reading but it did not, it tested out ok. I'm aware that this may not be exactly the most positive way of testing this theory so if anyone else has any ideas please let me know. My biggest question right now is why right after a water change do i have ammonia readings. I tested a day after this time but i have tested right after water changes before and the tests were always positive. I've only got nine fish in this 20gal and they are all relatively small and not full grown. this is very frustrating. the fish show absolutely no signs of any stress and the water is clear and smells fine as well and the filter is not clogged. I vaccuumed last night too ang got lots of stuff out of there and hoped it would help my ammonia reading but maybe it stirred up too much and made it worse. I don't know, HELP!!!

 

[deli_conker]

Is your ammonia test one or two bottles?

The one bottle version can give you a false positive. I think it uses what is known as the "Nessler reagent". This can detect other things and show them as ammonia.

Use the two reagent test. I know that aquarium pharm. has it in the "master freshwater test kit". It has always given me good readings.

My biggest question right now is why right after a water change do i have ammonia readings.

Let's say your ammonia is at 1 ppm. If you change 50% of the water and replace with fresh water, then you removed 50% of the ammonia as well. This leaves you with .5 ppm ammonia.

Stirring stuff up can give you an ammonia spike. At least it has with me. Just let your filter catch it and then clean it the way that TankGirl mentioned and you should be fine in a short while. You have to be careful vaccing while cycling. If you stir the gravel too much then you may kill off a lot of helpful bacteria. When cycling I usually vac like you would for sand; just hover close to the surface of the gravel and let the suction grab anything that's loose.

 

[TankGirl]

I would try testing your water by placing your thumb over the end of the test tube and getting a sample from lower down in the tank, as there may be more concentrations of it closer to the gravel, which would get stirred up and distributed during a water change. That might explain why you are showing more after you change the water.

Also, if you DO have markedly higher ammonia readings closer to the bottom, that might indicate there is more leftover food and poo down there than is desirable. If so, cutting back on feedings and more attention to gravel vac'ing would be helpful.

I think you have ruled out the dechlorinator as being the cause, because when I did the very same test you did involving the Marineland Bio-whatever dechlorinator, the test tube turned dark orange immediately.

 

[kmlong]

the test has two bottles to it. i tested down deeper too and the readings are still the same.

 

[daddyo72]

Are any of your fish eating feeders that remain too long?try more oxygen in your tank and limestone ..maybe in the gravel as a mix after washed....to help remove amonia. hth daddyo72

 

[TankGirl]

Limestone will raise the pH, and that might not be desirable. Removing ammonia can certainly be done with various products, but that will defeat the cycle, so I try to avoid "removing" the ammonia, since we are trying to grow nitrifying bacteria that feeds on ammonia. You will stall the cycle if you remove it.

I am somewhat stumped here as to the reason you are presently stalled, unless you have some kind of ammonia removing product (possibly mixed with charcoal in the filter?) that is holding you back.

Feeder fish remaining in the tank, or perishing and decaying somewhere hidden could definitely be a source - but I think we ruled out missing fish already.

Everybody brainstorm here - we gotta get to the bottom of this :x

 

[kmlong]

I have no feeder fish. There is nothing sitting anywhere in the tank like leftover food or anything. I have carbon in the filter cartridge and the cartridge has been in there for at least a month. But i did change carbon about two weeks ago thinking it may help remove the ammonia. I kept the same cartridge though cause i know i need that bacteria though i may have messed up by changing the carbon. I change water every two weeks, about 25% change and i add a little bit of salt usually 1 tsp per 5 gallons of new water that i treat. Would the salt do this? Ammonia never goes over 1 just seems to keep hovering there. I leave the light on for about 10 hours a day and turn it off when i go to bed and back on in the morning. The tank is not near any sun and water temp is 78 degrees. I dropped the temp to 76 last night to see what changes if any. I have all fake plants and put my air pump back in a while ago. I found that it keeps the top of the water free from all that protein stuff or just keeps it stirred up but i think it makes my water much clearer. I didn't feed for two days just to see what the ammonia was and it has not changed. Like i said, last week i did vacuum and got lots of stuff out of there and thought for sure it would solve my problem but it didn't. Im afraid im gonna have to change my filter soon, don't know how much longer i can keep that original one. it is wearing thin from rinsing in tank water when i do water changes. I am so frustrated. the fish are happy and well though but hate to keep making them swim in that ammonia. Current reading are: Nitrates 10, nitrites 0-.25, ammonia 1, ph neutral. I don't really watch the ph too much anymore. I just let it do its own thing cause as soon as you start messing with it with any chems it gets worse. the filter is rated for 100gph so its fine for my 20 gal tank, maybe just a little under rated. i appreciate all the help and need all the advice i can get.

 

[TankGirl]

Maybe change the filter but take the old one and put it in a mesh bag or something inside the tank, so the bacteria is still in there.

 

[BrianNY]

Hmmm. Something is going on in this tank. I would add more media. I'm a big fan of sponge filters. They inexpensive and do a great job of biofiltering. Connect it to your air pump for a week and let's see if the ammonia drops to 0.

 

[kmlong]

is this just something that connects to the airline? its not just a matter of getting rid of the ammonia. the question is why won't it supply my bacteria and deplete itself? going on 2 months now and i've only got traces of nitrites that never get higher and the cycling is at a complete stall. I've got no choice now but to replace the filter. you can see all kinds of lint-like particles in the water, im assuming it must be pieces of the filter, its been in awhile!! I'm going to put the old cartridge in my tank or see if i cant get it in my filter behind the new one yet. If not i'll just set it in the tank in some corner. I think Brian may be right though, not enough media in the tank for bacteria to grow on besides the gravel. Does anyone treat their tank with stress coat? I know we ruled out that being the possible cause for ammonia spike. My beta must be getting his fins nipped at a lot so i put some stress coat in to help with the repair for him. Are there other dechlorinators that you can also use as a slime replacement other than stress coat? thanks everyone. I know we're gonna get to the bottom of this.

 

[BrianNY]

Deleting anything from your tank now is a bad idea kmlong. Leave the filter, carbon, everything. Just increase the places where the good bacteria can get a foot hold.

A sponge filter connects to your air pump. Use that instead of the airstone. I'm guessing you can buy one at your lfs for like $5.00 (I buy them in bulk and online).
Also, I don't use any products to treat the water except a chlorine/chloramine remover. I don't it's ever needed to add stress coat. I'm wary of any products containing aloe. The fish all seem pretty good at producing their own body slime without it.

I wouldn't worry about adding any chemicals to your tank. Let's just get this thing cycled as quickly as possible.