Losing Fish Within 24 Hours

[CoBrit]

I have a Fluval Edge aquarium. I set it up about 2 1/2 weeks ago with live plants, but no fish. I added bacteria, etc.,following the guidelines for a new tank.

I have a Fluval mini CO2 set-up. My CO2 doser test was showing OK CO2, but not too much. I have an air pump that comes on a night when the plants start losing CO2 to stop any spikes.

The tank was testing well up to Thursday for PH, Ammonia, Nitrates & Nitrites. PH was testing at the beginning around 7.7, but got it down two 7.2.

So I added fish. I lost 3 of them (25%) within 24 hours. Ammonia spiked heavily. So I changed some water and added amo-lock. Ammonia still testing high, but amo-lock says it will as it does not remove ammonia, just change it to none deadly form.

Lost 3 more the next 24 hours.

The only test that I did not have was KHGH. I got a test kit and KH & GH was around 17.

I got a softener pillow. After 48 hours (the life on the first use of the pillow), the KH was still at 17, but GH down to 7. Tried adding an other pillow, KH won't shift.

I don't know what to do. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[rmiller]

Was your ammonia and nitrites at zero when you added the fish?

 

[CoBrit]

Thanks for the response. Yes. Zero, Amona is still high (altho ammo lock apparently gives false readings). Nitrates & nitrites are at zero.

 

[Delapool]

Thanks for the response. Yes. Zero, Amona is still high (altho ammo lock apparently gives false readings). Nitrates & nitrites are at zero.

Yes, that's my understanding as well that you will get a false reading. What sort of fish were they and does the fish shop use similar water to you? I know some fish are suggested for a fairly mature tank. Over here they use pretty much straight tap water in the fish shop so the water is the same as what I use. The charts I have seen show it will take 6 to 8 weeks to complete the cycle. Could be wrong(!), did you seen any increase in nitrate?

 

[Masha]

From what you've said, it does not look as though adding the bacteria has resulted in a cycled tank. If there is ammonia in your water, and esp if there are no nitrates, it seems that you don't have enough beneficial bacteria in your setup to process the fish waste. You should have 0 ammo, 0 nitrites, and some nitrates to show that the ammonia was processed into nitrates.

If that is true, then this is what is causing your fish deaths.

I believe that ammo-lock is really only useful for removing ammonia in your tapwater, if you are unlucky enough to have ammonia in your tapwater.

I get a head-ache when I try to figure out how using ammo-lock would affect the growth of beneficial bacteria in your tank. Theoretically they should be able to process the ammonium that ammo-lock produces, but then you still need the second phase bacteria - I think nitrospira? - to turn the nitrites into nitrates. Those usually take a very long time to appear.

If it is true and you don't have enough BB in your setup, best thing would be to stop dosing ammo-lock, and proceed with the usual steps for doing a fish-in cycle (lots of water changing and testing)

 

[Delapool]

From what you've said, it does not look as though adding the bacteria has resulted in a cycled tank. If there is ammonia in your water, and esp if there are no nitrates, it seems that you don't have enough beneficial bacteria in your setup to process the fish waste. You should have 0 ammo, 0 nitrites, and some nitrates to show that the ammonia was processed into nitrates.

If that is true, then this is what is causing your fish deaths.

I believe that ammo-lock is really only useful for removing ammonia in your tapwater, if you are unlucky enough to have ammonia in your tapwater.

I get a head-ache when I try to figure out how using ammo-lock would affect the growth of beneficial bacteria in your tank. Theoretically they should be able to process the ammonium that ammo-lock produces, but then you still need the second phase bacteria - I think nitrospira? - to turn the nitrites into nitrates. Those usually take a very long time to appear.

If it is true and you don't have enough BB in your setup, best thing would be to stop dosing ammo-lock, and proceed with the usual steps for doing a fish-in cycle (lots of water changing and testing)

Hi, yes wondering on this myself. I assumed that nh4 can be used by bb. And that you would get more nh4 at low ph so you would think it is fairly natural and the bb would evolve to use it. But when I read the bottle info it doesn't exactly say and seems to be that either it can be used or that the amino lock wears off after 2 days (hence re-dosing) and then the bb can use it (however that seems a bit odd). Or are there different bb for the 2? Thoughts appreciated. I kind of given up and intend to run two canister filters so I can clean one at a time and relax a bit....

 

[Rivercats]

You need to remove the water softner pillow. All that does is exchange magnesium and calcium ions for sodium ions. Plants and fish use magnesium and calcium but don't like sodium. If high gh and kh are bothering you then think about using RO water to cut with your tap water. But personally I'd leave it alone.

What kind of fish and how many did you add?

 

[Baddog671]

You added 12 fish to an uncycled tank. That's why your ammonia spiked, and you have no nitrite/nitrate because you aren't that far in your cycle yet.

 

[Mebbid]

If fish are dying in the first day I would look at your acclimation method. If you are running pressurized CO2 on a tank the pH will be lower than what the fish are used to if they were bought in a local fish shop. In the future I would recommend a slower acclimation.

Also, skip the ammo lock and do water changes instead. It is a safer bet to be sure all the ammonia is removed from the water and is cheaper as well.

 

[Caliban07]

Assuming you still have 6 fish left. Here's what I would do.

1) remove and replenish as much water from your tank as it takes to bring ammonia nitrite and nitrate to 0ppm. Ensuring you dechlorinate the new water.
2) test tap water so you know what you are putting in.
3) cease use of ammolock.
4) monitor water parameters daily and change water whenever ammonia reaches 0.25ppm or above.
5) feed lightly once a day skipping a feed every couple of days.
6) look out for nitrates as and indication that you cycle is in its final stage.
7) don't move or clean the filter media until cycle is complete.

If you follow these steps you should be ok.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Masha]

Would using ammo-lock interfere with establishing the nitrogen cycle in the OP's tank?

 

[rmiller]

My understanding (and I could very well be wrong) is that by locking up the ammonia using ammo lock or ammonia removers prevents bacteria from being able to feed on it, therefore starving any existing colony and preventing one to build in an uncycled tank.

 

[Mebbid]

When you use ammo lock it turns the ammonia into ammonium which is safer for fish. It can still be used by the BB

 

[molliwopp]

My understanding (and I could very well be wrong) is that by locking up the ammonia using ammo lock or ammonia removers prevents bacteria from being able to feed on it, therefore starving any existing colony and preventing one to build in an uncycled tank.

I have to agree with this to an extent. I used some once awhile ago when doing a water change and afew days later i was in a mini cycle that lasted a week. I wondered 'why is this happening!?' So i did a water change and added more ammo lock. It neutralised the ammonia but also thought that it stayed in the tank water locking any more ammonia being produced, which i believe actually starved off some of my bacteria. After i stopped using it and just changed fresh water, everything went back to normal. Whether it was caused by the ammo lock i dont know but i hadnt changed anything else in my routine.

I wouldnt use it anymore than once a week as bacteria can survive for awhile without food aslong as theyre wet with lots of oxygen. The ammo locks only active for 2-3days and wears off But i think if youre adding it more than once a week, bacteria will start to starve. I still think a normal water change without locking chemicals is the best choice.

Talking from experience with waterlifes ammo lock and havent used others!

 

[Delapool]

When you use ammo lock it turns the ammonia into ammonium which is safer for fish. It can still be used by the BB

Hi, thanks all for the help on this. Would you know of any articles on this? I saw seachem prime says it converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter basically as well. I assume this and amino lock products refer to converting ammonia to ammonium and that this implies bb can use them. However, even if this is the case - is the bb the same and can they use either at the same rate (ie just wondering if ammonium is harder for bb to use/convert)?

 

[Mebbid]

Without my understanding of this topic I would imagine it takes the bacteria slightly longer to convert the ammonium when compared to ammonia.

Ammonia is NH3 while Ammonium is NH4+ which is basically adding an extra hydrogen ion to the mix. When bacteria consume the ammonia they are taking in the NH3 and converting it into NO2. The hydrogen in this case being the useful part of the compound. With more available hydrogen in each molecule the bacteria doesn't need to take in as much as it would otherwise so the ammonium is being converted slightly slower.

That is my take on it however without a lot of testing with extremely precise tools to do the measuring it is nothing but conjecture on my part.

 

[Delapool]

I did find this article which I found interesting. I've copied a few bits out but put a link to the article below.

[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/nitrogen_cycle.html[/FONT]</SPAN>

"Nitrifying bacteria change ammonia (NH3) OR ammonium (NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) then to nitrate (NO3-). This is the most important aspect of the nitrogen cycle in an aquarium & pond and will be discussed in depth as this article progresses." *So NH4 looks useable. I've only come across a few articles on this though and very little on the nh4 vs nh3 conversion rate to nitrite.*

"There's a lot of confusion among aquarists about nitrifying bacteria. This is due in large part to the recent emergence of a wide variety of bacterial products claiming to be nitrifying aids. Some ammonia oxidizing bacteria can revive more quickly than others.
After 342 days of ammonia starvation, the AOB N. europaea, was shown to have an immediate response to the addition of ammonia as measured by nitrite production, without initial protein synthesis." *Buyer beware if the bottle products are used to quick-start a cycle? 342 days though!*

"PLEASE NOTE that products such as Prime or Amquel+ should not be over used during the initial cycling process of an aquarium or pond (use sparingly as per directions, no more than once per 24 hours). Product Resource: SeaChem Prime" *In reading to date I've concluded that using amino lock, etc during a fishless cycle for new tank setup would not be needed as it either retards the cycle process or you have no fish so doesn't matter. However it seems perhaps a double-edged sword as Molliwopp pointed out for a mini-cycle. I guess it is a trade-off?