Sharing my fishkeeping blunders

[jcarlilesiu]

With daily water changes, you probably won't see the spike.

When cycling without fish, you wouldn't typically do water changes in an effort to keep ammonia and nitrites to acceptable levels for the livestock, thus you would see it "spike" at 5 ppm then start to fall when nitrites begin to rise.

In your case, you will see ammonia maintain .5 ppm or what ever your threshold is for a water change, and then you will see it drop to 0. That is your spike as you are doing water changes in an effort to prevent a high PPM spike.

Understand?

 

[awakebyjava]

Great post! Same as my experience as a kid! Glad your stuff is going so well!

 

[deezer]

hahaha, i just read your post and i have to ask if you live at my house? we are going thru the same thing except we have a 36 gallon. thank you for not only a good chuckle, but i have gotten some good info from other members feed back.
I have found that the water changes are important and so are healthy fish (when you go to stock). My daughter is 5 and LOVES her tank. we have some community fish in there now. And honestly that is what I will continue to have. they are funny to watch and colorful. we found a specialized dealer in town who has given me some helpful advice about cycling and types of fish that are appropriate. I have learned that this is the place to shop since the fish are healthy and the staff is very informed. My major fish lesson: if possible DO NOT go to a chain pet store. they are not always right with advice, and we have gotten sick fish from them (more than once). good luck.

 

[SeattleSun]

Welcome!

What a great story. So funny but true! Don't trust a pet store when they tell you it is an easy hobby with very little work! There is always something that needs to be done. But it is so much fun to watch the fish, especially if they are healthy! Good luck! You sound like you will enjoy the aquarium more than your son!

 

[jim692]

With daily water changes, you probably won't see the spike.
In your case, you will see ammonia maintain .5 ppm or what ever your threshold is for a water change, and then you will see it drop to 0. That is your spike as you are doing water changes in an effort to prevent a high PPM spike.

Thank you

I thought that was likely, but was unsure if it would really work out this way. I seem to be able to maintain the 0 to .25ppm of nitrite and ammonia if i do a 1/3 or 1/2 water change every time it gets to .50ppm levels. Approximately every 3-4 days. Time between water changes seems to be increasing slightly. Was every 2-3 days to reach these readings.

I think having a 46 gal tank helps because of the greater volume of water. The readings go up slower and at a steadier rate. If it was a 10 or 20 gallon tank I'm sure that there would be daily water changes with large swings in the readings at this bio load.

I have used 2 test strip types and a liquid reagent test kit, (API freshwater master test) and found the liquid test kit seems to be easier to read and have better accuracy. Does anyone else have similar results?

 

[An t-iasg]

Yes, that's why you're not seeing the spikes in ammonia and nitrite - as if you were doing a fishless cycle - because of your water changes to keep the levels low for the fish. You'll still cycle, but slower than you would with a fishless cycle. It looks like you're doing a good job managing the ammonia and nitrite.

Larger volumes of water are easier to manage than smaller volumes. I think the hardest tank I ever cycled was a 5 gallon tank! A larger tank is good for the fish too in that the parameters won't swing as much as a smaller tank.

It's generally agreed that the liquid reagent test kits are more accurate than the test strips. Follow the directions carefully - the nitrate test kit, when you get that far, says "shake vigorously for 30 seconds". It's important to do that to get accurate results. The strips can absorb humidity from the air which hinders their accuracy. You have to seal them up in the jar very well, and even then they would probably only be accurate for a few weeks. The liquid tests are just a better way of gauging the parameters for the health of your fish.

 

[jim692]

Almost there (I hope)

Well, it's day 21 of the cycle and the tank's looking pretty good. Still a slight haze like small floating particles but not too much. (also i should clean the outside of the glass. lol.) I used the last water change to add a few plastic plants,(don't think I'm ready for live just yet.) and place the heater horizontal at the bottom of the tank so it stays submerged during water changes. Pictures of the adjustments and haze attached.

My current readings are { pH 7.8 ; ammonia 0.25ppm ; nitrites 0.0ppm ; nitrates 10ppm(tap level) ; GH 180ppm ; KH 240ppm ; temp 77.2'F } Since last water change, nitrites have been at 0.0 and ammonia has been at 0.25 to 0.0 (3 days). pH has remained steady in the tank at 7.8 for last 11 days.

I need advice on how to keep the air hose in/under the gravel through the tank. My hoses always seem to come up. Any good methods? I vac the gravel with each water change. Should this be done while cycling? Someone said not to. I don't know.

P.S. I think my son has named the fish and I believe he will explode when the tank is finished cycling. LOL.

Yes, the light you see at the end of the tunnel may indeed be a train!

 

[Egress]

I need advice on how to keep the air hose in/under the gravel through the tank. My hoses always seem to come up. Any good methods?

Use suction cups with the little clips on 'em for holding airline, looks like you're already using some on the rear glass.

I vac the gravel with each water change. Should this be done while cycling?

I can't think of any reason not to.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

That .025 PPM ammonia concerns me. You should see ammonia drop to zero first, then nitrites, not nitrites to 0 first.

The whole "tap water" issue is a bit confusing. Lets be sure you are on the right page. If infact your tap water has 10 PPM of nitrates 5 minutes after you turn on the faucet, that doesn't necessarily mean that you would have 10 PPM nitrates due to the tap water a week later. Infact, those nitrates coming out of your tap will die because they don't have a food source. Similarly, if you are seeing ammonia in the tank directly following a water change, it may be a bit of a misnomer. Water at least 24 hours AFTER a water change to take any test readings for more accurate results. If you are seeing .25 PPM ammonia following a water change, and zero ammonia and nitrItes 24 hours later.... sounds like you are cycled.

The beneficial bacteria does live in the gravel as well as your filter, so probably best not to mess with the new colonies in either too much until you need to start regular maintanence due to a dirty tank. Even then, its not best to clean the gravel and replace filter media in the same session... might get a miny cycle.

Did you mess anything up by vacing? Probably not. Just remember that the tank is working to balance itself right now, so any messing you are doing might impact the tanks natural ability to establish an equilibrium in the shortest amount of time possible.

 

[jim692]

Ok, I get the reason behind the leave the gravel be thought. Will do so until tank is fully cycled or it starts looking nasty.

That .025 PPM ammonia concerns me. You should see ammonia drop to zero first, then nitrites, not nitrites to 0 first.

Me too that was the thought behind the gravel question. Was hoping I didn't beat up on the ammonia munchers.

The whole "tap water" issue is a bit confusing. Lets be sure you are on the right page. If infact your tap water has 10 PPM of nitrates 5 minutes after you turn on the faucet, that doesn't necessarily mean that you would have 10 PPM nitrates due to the tap water a week later. Infact, those nitrates coming out of your tap will die because they don't have a food source.

A nitrate is NH3- I believe. It's not alive, so it can't die. It won't go anywhere unless used by a plant or bacteria so I thought.

Similarly, if you are seeing ammonia in the tank directly following a water change, it may be a bit of a misnomer. Water at least 24 hours AFTER a water change to take any test readings for more accurate results.

All daily water tests are done before any water changes are performed.

I will attach the spreadsheet I am using to keep track of everything if anyone has a way of uploading it.( can't upload a excel file it seems)

Correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

 

[An t-iasg]

The chemical formula for nitrate is NO3. The bacteria that creates the nitrates are alive but the end product, NO3, is not. The only ways to remove nitrates from your water column is by doing a water change or adding some live plants which will take in the nitrates.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

Technically speaking, you are right, nitrate or NH3 is not alive. Infact, the forum norm of calling "ammonia", "nitrite", and "nitrate" bacteria is not accurate. These are actually the bi-product of the organizms that colonize and utilize these bi-products and in turn make their own. Here is a great article if you are interested.

"When an organism dies, nitrogen is moved from plant or animal into the inorganic chemical ammonia by the process of bacterial decay. Ammonia is also produced by bacteria in the breakdown of protein. This process is called Mineralization and is the end result of the metabolism of food. However, ammonia is produced from both metabolism and mineralization. The decomposition (mineralization) process produces large quantities of ammonia (NH3) through the process of ammoniafication. Heterotrophic microbes (organisms that require organic substrates to get its carbon for their growth and development) utilize the organic compounds of decomposing matter as their carbon source. Ammonia (NH3) is the byproduct of this consumption.
Ammonia, in its neutral state, exists as ammonium (NH4+). Ammonium (NH4) is formed by the protonation (the addition of a Proton (H+) to the molecule. During this process of protonation NH3 (which is a base) converts into a weak acid (an acid which has the tendency to lose, or "donate" a hydrogen ion, also known as a “Brønsted-Lowry acid”. This tendency to “donate” a hydrogen ion is how NH4 converts back to NH3 as pH rises. Products such as Prime block this process, maintaining the extra hydrogen ion

Ammonia is assimilated in more than one way. Plants (such as Hornwort) and algae can assimilate ammonia and ammonium directly for the biosynthesis. The remaining bulk of decomposed byproducts are utilized by bacteria in a process called nitrification. Ammonia does not last long in a healthy aquarium environment, fortunately. Nitrifying bacteria such as Nitrosomonas quickly break down ammonia into less toxic Nitrite (NO2). During this process, specific species of nitrifying bacteria strip the ammonium of its hydrogen molecules as an energy source. Oxygen molecules are then affixed to the stripped nitrogen, forming the oxide nitrite (NO2).
Another group of bacteria (Nitrobacter ) utilize the enzyme nitrite oxidase that is then responsible for converting nitrite into nitrate (NO3). This nitrate can either be used by plants as a nutrient source, or can be further broken down into nitrogen gas (N2) through the activity of anaerobic bacteria such as Pseudomonas .
It should be noted, that without oxygen (nitrification is an oxidative process), none of this process can take place."

Aquarium Nitrogen cycle and cycling. Methods for ammonia, nitrite removal.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

The chemical formula for nitrate is NO3. The bacteria that creates the nitrates are alive but the end product, NO3, is not. The only ways to remove nitrates from your water column is by doing a water change or adding some live plants which will take in the nitrates.

Thats right. I knew that, just been a while. Nitrates will continue to build until something is done to remove them.

My bad.

 

[jim692]

My bad.

No problem. Thanks for the help. I was getting a bit confused also. I couldn't figure out how to upload my spread sheet so..... I printed and scanned.

Still new at the forum thing too......sorry so small

 

[jim692]

Ok update time,
I have a strange situation. my ammonia is still not to 0 on day 24 of the cycle but my nitrItes have been at 0 since day 17 of the cycle process. I am doing pwc when either ammonia or nitrItes hit the 0.50ppm level. This seems to contradict most things I have read. any ideas?
thanks

 

[booginish]

ya great post. my older brother kept his 10 gallon with 2 piranas and his 55 gallon here when i was a kid, he had snakes, frogs and all kinds of wierd stuff in his 55 gallon, but my favorite was the piranas. we left for a month on vacation(the whole family). he paid a guy to watch over all the fish, do water changes and feed them. a week in his mom died and he just didnt feed the fish at all, no pwc nothing(cant blame him really). we got home after a month to find the most grotesc site u could ever imagine in a fishtank, but to our complete surprise, we still had a pirana, it lived on the carcuss of his best friend, which is pretty insane, but 2 years later it died from a bubble in his poor little heart. it was a pretty bad time, but my brother restocked in no time. years after i inherited the 55 gallon and have bin stocking it ever since(on and off, iv moved alot). i swear late at night if u watch very closely u can see the ghosts of the frogs swimming through the tank looking for the person who was suppose to show up and feed them but never did(joking).

 

[jim692]

OK,
one of the zebra danios died today. Checked the water parameters.
ph - 7.8
ammonia - 0.25
nitrites - 0.0
nitrates - 10
temp - 77'F
did a pwc anyway 50%
no signs of outward distress on the one that died. Gills seemed ok. No spots or lesions. Other fish in the tank seem active and are feeding normally. Did notice he was back by the heater more than usual but didn't seem to be in any trouble. Any ideas?

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm sorry to hear that. I agree that is strange about your ammonia. If the danio was a little weak or stressed, that level of ammonia could have done him in. Do a few extra water changes to get the ammonia down and also to try to ensure that the water is pristine again after the fish died. Are all other fish accounted for? A dead fish in the tank that isn't noticed right away can cause a small ammonia spike. You don't have any real plants, so the excess ammonia can't be rotting plant material. Are you perhaps overfeeding?

Are you using the API ammonia test with one or two bottles? The one-bottle kit (Nessler) may give you a "false positive" for ammonia - it's still reading the ammonia level that the Prime locked up - the NH4. The two-bottle kit (Salicylate) will only show the dangerous ammonia level, the NH3.

But given that a fish died, I would suspect that you do have an accurate ammonia reading and just continue with your water changes.

 

[jim692]

Thank You, for the advice An t-iasg.

I'm using the API freshwater kit.
We are going very light on the feeding. I actually was about to ask if I am underfeeding.

I found a 2nd. danio that had gone. Checked the water parameters and they were about the same as the previous post. I am doing daily water changes and when any reading for ammonia or nitrite gets over 0.25. Hopefully that will help.

A side note for those who are thinking of cycling with fish.
If you didn't know about fishless cycling at the time you started a tank you have my sympathies.
If your not sure weather to cycle with or without fish, do it fishless. You do not need the unnecessary trouble or grief.
If you have kids really don't cycle with fish. They get very attached to them. It's no fun to have them running to the tank to see if all the fish are still there, and find out they are not.

Trust me, cycle fishless you won't regret it.

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm sorry about the second fish, and I'm sure your kids are sad But hang in there - you'll cycle and have a beautiful, healthy tank!

Keep up with your water changes - I know that sounds like a broken record. That is a good level to change at - .25 ppm of ammonia or nitrite, although it may mean daily or even twice-daily changes for you.

If you do know anyone with a disease-free tank, you could squeeze their media a little bit in a plastic baggie. Squeeze out some dirty brown water. Just one to two squeezes should do it. Take that baggie home and squeeze your media in it to incorporate the bacteria. Then put your media back in the filter. You could try asking an lfs that you think has good tanks. Ask a local store rather than the chain lfs. There are chains with good tanks but I doubt they would do it. The only "packaged" bacteria that worked for me was Bio-Spira. It's expensive, and the effectiveness of it depends on if it's been refrigerated properly at all stages of shipping and storage. I had a few packages work for me and one that didn't.