Complete Newbie - done a bit of research and now overwhelmed a bit

[gazza1988]

Hello,

I have a Aqua el leddy 75 tank - not purchased from here though this is a link to show which one (it came with all the stuff listed) and I have filled it ~20 hours ago, I have treated it with Tap safe (I have exactly this purchased from the actual store) and because I purchased live plants I was told to use Microbe-Lift Plants Green Fertiliser (again purchased that exact product from their physical store). Which I have dosed the water with already.

From that same store, we have a 10kg bag of gravel. We were told that for our tank size, we may not need it all. However, it is a very thin layer with all the gravel in it. Some places I've seen say a thin layer and some say up to 2 inches deep. I really don't know on that one what would be the best

we are having some Platy fish from friends. I was told there were not that many then today I found out it is 17. How am I going to do this? I read the guides on here and it seems the advice of putting some water in the tank with some tap-safe, leaving it a couple of days and then introducing the fish isn't the best.

I am really at a loss.

The guides say about introducing pure ammonia for the cycle but I don't know what to do. I've got an information overload and not sure how to proceed from where I am which is 100 litres of tap safe treated water with some fertilizer in it, some gravel and some plants (well a heater and a pump too).

What would you do next?
Here is a link to a photo of how my tank currently looks

 

[Aiken Drum]

For a start, do not add 17 platys into that tank.

There is this thing called the nitrogen cycle, which is the process where the tank is able to treat the toxic waste fish produce into less toxic waste that they can live with to a degree. Cycling the tank is the process everyone goes to establish the nitrogen cycle and this takes time. Typically a couple of months.

There are broadly speaking 2 ways to cycle a tank.

A fish in cycle uses fish to cycle the tank. You start with a few small fish, gradually increasing the number while carefully monitoring water quality and changing water to keep the water safe.

A fishless cycle you cycle the tank before getting fish by artificially dosing fish waste with ammonia until the tank is cycled and you can then add your fish.

Ill post a thorough description of what the nitrogen cycle is, a bit more about fish in and fishless cycles, and then you can decide how you want to proceed.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The nitrogen cycle is the natural processes that go on in your tank that convert ammonia into less harmful substances.

Ammonia gets into your tank through various pathways. Fish waste, decaying uneaten food, and dead, decaying plants are common ammonia sources in an aquarium. Its also possible your tap water is an ammonia source. Chloramine is a common water treatment and when treated with most water conditioners the bond in the chloramine breaks and releases ammonia into the water.

Ammonia can be toxic to fish, depending on how much there is, and what the pH and temperature of your tank water is.

The first stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of ammonia. If you have real plants in your tank some of this ammonia will be absorbed as part of their natural growth. Generally though ammonia is consumed by denitrifying bacteria that lives mostly on your filter media. These bacteria consume the ammonia and produce nitrite. Unfortunately nitrite is pretty much as toxic to fish as ammonia.

The second stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of nitrite. A different denitrifying bacteria will consume the nitrite and produce nitrate. Nitrate is much less harmful than ammonia and nitrite, and for most aquariums the nitrogen cycle ends there. Excess nitrate is removed through your regular water changes.

A further stage of the nitrogen cycle can also happen, but its difficult to remove all the nitrate from a typical freshwater aquarium. Plants will absorb some nitrate in a similar manner to how it absorbs ammonia to grow. There are also nitrifying bacteria that consumes nitrate and gives off nitrogen gas which will simply offgas from your aquarium. This nitrifying bacteria is difficult to grow in freshwater aquarium.

“Cycling” a tank is the process you go through to grow denitrifying bacteria in your aquarium to consume ammonia and nitrite. You are said to be “cycled” when you have enough bacteria to consume all the ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces and turns all of it into nitrate. If you test the water of a cycled tank you should see 0 ammonia and nitrite and some nitrate.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

Two commonly used methods to cycle a tank are called a “fish in” cycle and a “fishless” cycle.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels. This has been the go to method to cycle a tank for many years, and it commonly is the way new fish keepers cycle a tank when they have bought fish with no knowledge that a tank needs cycling and how to go about it.

Pros.

• You get to keep “some” fish pretty much on day 1 of setting up your tank.
• More consistently gets you through your cycle.
• Only real choice if you already have fish.
• If done simply, eg stock lightly, add fish slowly, you can fishless cycle safely without testing. Although testing your water while cycling is still a good idea.

Cons.

• Lots of water changes, especially if you are doing a fish in cycle with a fully stocked tank.
• Although you should be doing plenty of water changes to maintain relatively safe water, your fish will be living in waste which isn’t ideal.
• Can take a long time (several months) to go from an empty tank to fully stocked if done safely.

A fishless cycle uses an ammonia source to replicate the fish waste that a tank of fish would produce. This ammonia source can be pure ammonia, an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product like Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride, a cocktail shrimp or fish food.

Pros.

• You cycle the tank before adding fish, therefore they shouldn’t be exposed to their own waste.
• No need for regular water changes while your tank cycles.
• Can be quicker to go from an empty tank to fully stocked.

Cons.

• Needs patience, you will be looking at an empty tank for several weeks.
• More technical approach requiring dosing ammonia and will need to be done alongside regular testing.
• Less consistently successful than fish in cycles, especially with new fish keepers who don’t understand the process and expect it to run to a timetable.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I should also add that platys are livebearers. The phrase breeds like rabbits is appropriate. I presume this is why your friends are trying to get you to take them off their hands. All they are doing is pushing their problem onto you and nothing will get solved.

The females you will be introducing into your tank will already be pregnant. Even if they arent, if there are males and females in those 17 fish they soon will be. And then your aquarium will be overrun with platys and you will need someone else to take them off your hands. In the meantime your friends aquarium will still be producing even more babies and they too will be looking for someone else to take the new fish off them. You all need to stop the fish from breeding by separating the sexes. Any births you get from already pregnant females need separating into males and females too. Platys can store sperm for upto a year, so already pregnant females can keep having babies for a significant period of time after separation, so this needs to be a long term plan on dealing with platy babies.

 

[gazza1988]

Hi. The reason for us having them is their kids want an axolotl. They can have one when the fish are gone. My missus has decided we will have the fish to speed up their getting a axolotl.

Just to give you an idea of who we are getting them off. They said they were "mollys" but 2 separate stores have assured us they are platys when we showed them a photo.

My missus counted 17 fish in the photo,

Me personally I wanted like a shrimp or 2 or a snail with some of the little neon looking fish. Looks like my tank capacity is going to be used up on platys.

How many should I be getting? I could perhaps take 2 or 3 for a fish in cycle then gradually add some more.

Quick question though. What kind of test kit should I get?

 

[Aiken Drum]

In your sized tank I would start off with 2 or 3 and expect it to be 2 or 3 months before all 17 fish are transferred over. Ill post a fish in cycle process.

As to a test kit. API freshwater master test kit covers what you need. Its accurate enough to cycle and maintain a tank and cost effective.

I would say 17 platys in the size of aquarium you have is pretty full. You certainly want to ensure all the fish you get are single sex, you dont have capacity for any more or to have them breeding.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels.

Set up your tank. Make sure everything is running smoothly. Make sure you have used a water conditioner product with any tap water you have put in your tank. Seachem Prime is a water conditioner that will also detoxify some ammonia for a day or two, so is a good choice for a water conditioner while cycling a tank with fish.

You should have a test kit. Preferably a liquid test kit. It should test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

In ideal circumstances you should be starting a fishless cycle with a low bioload (number of fish). 1 small fish per 10 gallons/40 litres is a good number of fish, but this can be tweaked a little for fish that are social and don’t do well on their own. Ideally a hardy type of fish. You may have fully stocked (or overstocked) your tank before you knew about cycling. In these circumstances, if its not possible to return fish, you will have to make the best of it.

If you haven’t already done so, add your fish. Acclimate them to the water in your tank before doing so.

Feed lightly to start with. Daily as much as is eaten in 2 minutes, or as much as is eaten in 3 minutes every 2 days. You can increase to full feedings if you are confident your parameters aren’t getting too elevated too quickly and water changes don’t become a daily thing.

Start to regularly test the water for ammonia and nitrite. At least daily. Depending on your bioload you could start to see ammonia quite quickly. Nitrite will likely take a little longer to appear.

Your target should be to keep ammonia + nitrite combined no higher than 0.5ppm by changing water whenever your water parameters exceed this target. 0.5ppm combined is a level of waste that is sufficient for your cycle to establish but relatively safe for your fish.

If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.0ppm nitrite (0.5ppm combined) then leave things be. If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite (0.75ppm combined) then change 1/3 of the water. If you see 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.75ppm nitrite (1.0ppm combined) then change 1/2 the water. If water parameters get worse than these levels it may require multiple daily 50% water changes to maintain safe water conditions. This is more likely to happen with a fully stocked tank.

Remember to add water conditioner whenever you put tap water in the tank.

Over time the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change to maintain your ammonia + nitrite combined target will reduce. You can also start testing for nitrate and should see this rising. If you are finding the ammonia and nitrite in your tests are consistently low, and you aren’t already fully stocked, you can add a few more fish. It may take a few weeks to get to this point.

Once you add a few more fish, continue to regularly test the water and continue to change water if you exceed the 0.5ppm combined ammonia + nitrite target. With added bioload the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change may increase again until your cycle has caught up. Again once you are consistently seeing low ammonia and nitrite you can add some more fish. Rinse and repeat with testing, water changes, and adding fish when safe to do so until you are fully stocked.

You can then cut back on water changes to control nitrate only. Typically you want to keep nitrate no higher than 40ppm, but I would recommend changing some water every 2 weeks even if your water test says you don’t need to.

A fish in cycle from an empty tank to fully stocked can take several months.

A good way to speed up this process would be to put a small amount of filter media from an established filter into your filter, or get a sponge from an established filter and squeeze it into your tank water. Perhaps you have a friend who keeps fish who could let you have some? This will seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow and speed up the process.

Another option is bottled bacteria like Dr Tims One + Only or Tetra Safestart. These products wont instantly cycle a tank as they claim but in a similar manner to adding established filter media they can seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow to establish your cycle. These products are hit and miss as to whether they work at all, but are an option if established filter media isnt obtainable and may speed up the process from several months to several weeks.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Just noticed your comment on gravel.

You mention plants, so it depends on what plants you bought. If they are rooting plants you want 1 to 2 inches of substrate so they have something to root in. If they are rhyzome plants (anubias, java fern) or mosses they dont need any substrate as they arent planted in the substrate. In which case 0.5 to 1 inch will be fine.

Note that commercially grown plants are cultivated “emersed” rather than “submerged”. This way the plants can easily get their carbon requirement from atmospheric CO2. They can be grown quicker which makes the operation much more commercially viable. You take that plant, put it in your aquarium, cut off its source of CO2 and the plant goes into survival mode. It starts to use up its stored carbon and the leafs melt. You may lose all your original growth to melt but new leafs will have a structure more suited to its new environment and get its carbon from the water. Plant melt is a normal stage in aquarium plant growth. To judge the health of a plant look for new growth rather than what might be happening to the original growth, and judge it over extended periods of time. Dont get disheartened if your plants go through an ugly stage.

 

[gazza1988]

Just noticed your comment on gravel.

You mention plants, so it depends on what plants you bought. If they are rooting plants you want 1 to 2 inches of substrate so they have something to root in. If they are rhyzome plants (anubias, java fern) or mosses they dont need any substrate as they arent planted in the substrate. In which case 0.5 to 1 inch will be fine.

Note that commercially grown plants are cultivated “emersed” rather than “submerged”. This way the plants can easily get their carbon requirement from atmospheric CO2. They can be grown quicker which makes the operation much more commercially viable. You take that plant, put it in your aquarium, cut off its source of CO2 and the plant goes into survival mode. It starts to use up its stored carbon and the leafs melt. You may lose all your original growth to melt but new leafs will have a structure more suited to its new environment and get its carbon from the water. Plant melt is a normal stage in aquarium plant growth. To judge the health of a plant look for new growth rather than what might be happening to the original growth, and judge it over extended periods of time. Dont get disheartened if your plants go through an ugly stage.

Echinodorus parviflorus, Hygrophila rosae australis and Hygrophila corymbosa.

Those are the plants I have.

 

[Aiken Drum]

They should be ok in 1 to 2 inches of substrate, and would benefit from some root tabs.

For info you need about 12kg of gravel for each 1" of substrate in your sized aquarium. Id get another 10kg bag of gravel.

 

[gazza1988]

So an update out of the blue. We have stuff.

So our neighbours a few doors down are moving. They have a small 30l tank that had a Butterfly Loach. Also, 4 or 5 shrimp which are transparent and 1 zebra nerite snail. They said they were going to flush them live down the toilet because they aren't taking them with them. I said I'd take them and the small tank which is 50x25cm footprint.

THey knocked on our door with a bag with all the aquatic animals in along with 4 moss balls and an empty tank.

I've put them in my 105l tank, looks like I'm doing fish in method lol. Now I've set up a 2nd small tank as well. I stole a moss ball for it and a few shoots of the live plants from the bigger tank.

No idea what to do with the little one tbh. I wanted a snail and some shrimp and some fish in the large one.

I know you said about splitting the platys, this could be a way to do that. I'll have a look at IDing male and female.

So yeah I've gone from noob to a rescuer in 48 hours.

 

[huma-huma]

Imo here Gazza, I wouldn't even consider setting up the smaller tank yet. Being that you are fairly new to this and learning as you go here, trying to manage 2 separate tanks while cycling could be a bit overwhelming. Id get the bigger tank cycled, nice and stable THEN focus on the smaller tank. Not to mention that contrary to popular belief, smaller tanks (especially nanos) are harder to keep than bigger tanks. Water balance in terms of ph/kh/gh/ temp etc can all swing fairly rapidly in the smaller setups

 

[huma-huma]

Something also worth mentioning here is of your platy friend had an established tank (lets say a year or more older) try to get as much filter media from them as possible out of the existing setup. This could possibly help you in "seeding" your new tank and cut the cycling time down