Still taking 48+ hours to clear 1 ppm of ammonia

[DocDan]

Sounds like you're well on your way. Can't wait to hear about your puffers!

 

[drm315]

Oh My Goodness! I can't laugh out loud "loud enough" on this one....this tank has been the MOST challenging tank I have ever set up in my life! THIS is today's water test. I am now in the process of regrowing nitrites for like the third time! All I did yesterday (after my postings) was a 50% water change (adding Prime when doing so), added the carbon filter to help with the chloramines, put sponge that I replaced with the carbon insert that was in one filter into a new filter so I wouldn't lose the BB. I also dosed the tank back up to 1 ppm of ammonia. Now I have new nitrites and what seems like a cycle starting over. I will say, it does appear that I'm converting the ammonia quicker. It was at 1 ppm just over 12 hours ago and now it's down to about .25. It had been taking 48 hours just to convert that 1 ppm before all of this. Oh - an pH is back down to 6-6.4. Any ideas? I'm almost on week six of this cycle.....

 

[Fresh2o]

When I did a fishless cycle, I would test daily and never detected nitrites. I tested the same time each day. Of course the nitrates would show up as expected. I then tested for nitrites 3-4 times one day (day after dosing ammonia) and managed to detect them at one of the intervals. It appears that the duration of the spike is short lived in a properly cycled system.
Keep in mind that the chloramine will add to the ammonia content once it is broken down with Prime. I once had tap water that had 1.0 ppm ammonia and 5.0 ppm nitrate. A seasoned filter prevented any mishaps despite this.
Regarding the pH, I can't recall if you added crushed coral to increase the buffering of the water (to reduce pH swings).
Yes, that is a lengthy cycle. I used media from an existing tank and the total time was 1-2 weeks. At this point I'm thinking it perhaps you should start stocking the tank and perform water changes as needed.

 

[drm315]

Just performed a 50-60% water change to try to lower nitrates and this is the reading for everything....

As far as going ahead and stocking my tank with fish...I'm very hesitant to do that because dwarf puffers are very sensitive to ammonia and nitrites. I don't want dying fish on my hands...

 

[DocDan]

So, if I may recap based on your last two posts, you treated water with a chemical that will cause the Chloramines to devolve into chlorine and ammonia, then added more ammonia to achieve 1ppm. Since ammonia is a base, it raised your pH. Now hours later, the ammonia is declining, nitrites spiked, then nitrates also spiked. It looks like your bio filter is working perfectly. Believe it or not, I have never used Prime to treat my water, I've always allowed natural off-gassing; therefore, I will have to look-up Prime's mechanism of action to see how it deals with the residual chlorine.

 

[drm315]

So, if I may recap based on your last two posts, you treated water with a chemical that will cause the Chloramines to devolve into chlorine and ammonia, then added more ammonia to achieve 1ppm. Since ammonia is a base, it raised your pH. Now hours later, the ammonia is declining, nitrites spiked, then nitrates also spiked. It looks like your bio filter is working perfectly. Believe it or not, I have never used Prime to treat my water, I've always allowed natural off-gassing; therefore, I will have to look-up Prime's mechanism of action to see how it deals with the residual chlorine.

I think you've got it correct - I did a water change yesterday and then added ammonia to get it back up to 1 ppm. This morning, I checked water parameters, and had nitrites reappearing, high nitrates, ammonia about .25, and pH around 6-6.4. Did a water change this morning, have added no more ammonia, and got the picture I posted last on my water parameters.

I will add, that this tank is planted nicely with live plants and therefore there are many snails (which is what I want because dwarf puffers eat snails), and the snails seem to be thriving just fine in these water parameters which has me a little baffled, as well.

 

[DocDan]

If this was my tank, I'd prepare 10% water for next week's water change and put in one - two puffers to get the tank going. Otherwise, you will stay in this same loop where you add ammonia-laden water and keep getting nitrates, which in turn inhibit the Nitrosomonas to reduce nitrites. At some point you need natural fish waste and water that has off-gassed the residual chlorine and ammonia for your water changes.

 

[drm315]

If this was my tank, I'd prepare 10% water for next week's water change and put in one - two puffers to get the tank going. Otherwise, you will stay in this same loop where you add ammonia-laden water and keep getting nitrates, which in turn inhibit the Nitrosomonas to reduce nitrites. At some point you need natural fish waste and water that has off-gassed the residual chlorine and ammonia for your water changes.

The way my lfs works is I have to order three puffers at a time from them. I was debating on getting 3-6, but since I'm having issues with the water, I have decided to just put in my order for three. I can do it on Monday and the fish will be here on Tuesday.

 

[drm315]

If this was my tank, I'd prepare 10% water for next week's water change and put in one - two puffers to get the tank going. Otherwise, you will stay in this same loop where you add ammonia-laden water and keep getting nitrates, which in turn inhibit the Nitrosomonas to reduce nitrites. At some point you need natural fish waste and water that has off-gassed the residual chlorine and ammonia for your water changes.

The water that I sit out for a few days - do I treat that with the Prime or not?

 

[Delapool]

This is the information for prime. Probably why the snails are still fine.

http://www.seachem.com/prime.php

High nitrates won't stop the bacterial population - I've previously had nitrates above 100ppm and no issues. Same for ammonia and nitrites well above 5ppm. The population types may change though I suspect (difference between a newly, cycled tank and a more 'bulletproof' tank after 6 months).

I see no reason to start stocking. The tank is still unstable and still within time frames that the autotrophic bacteria take. Up to the OP - here these would (sadly) be quite exotic fish - I'm sure there is enough experience here to do a fish-in cycle though if down that road.

http://www.oscarfish.com/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html

Places like Angels Plus sell established filters. Never used them but heard good reports.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

I'll read through again after coffee. It would be interesting to find out if your water is low or high KH (soft or hard). PH dropping rapidly from tap (7.6?) to tank (6 or 6.4?) suggests kh is being chewed through rapidly. It needs to be maintained or the cycle will slow down for the bacteria you likely have. Thread reads as a low ph issue.

Copied in below:

1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.

For every gram of ammonia oxidised into nitrate 4.8 grams of oxygen is used, 7.14 grams of calcium carbonate is used (thus why pH crash can occur in tanks with to little buffering capacity).

Some tanks require either the addition of extra water changes or added carbonates while cycling to keep the ph around above 7.

Not sure if you tested tap water? If not I would test for everything, let a jar of water sit for 24hrs to gas off, etc and then re-test ph to get an idea of true ph.

Here my tap is about 8.2, after 24hrs is say 7.6. Some here do age the water before use. I do think that makes sense and allows temps to come up, prime is just that convenient. The water is soft (low kh), so I usually check this every quarter as it can change (summer water very soft).

I have an injected CO2 tank, I gave up on snails as the shells were getting pitting in low ph. In a small tank with them I added cuttlefish shell.

 

[DocDan]

The water that I sit out for a few days - do I treat that with the Prime or not?

If it's only going to be out for 1-2 days, yes, but if it'll be out for 4-5 days or more, no. The Chlorine and Chloramines will dissipate naturally, as long as the container is only 80-90% full or uncapped.

 

[drm315]

This is the information for prime. Probably why the snails are still fine.

Seachem - Prime

High nitrates won't stop the bacterial population - I've previously had nitrates above 100ppm and no issues. Same for ammonia and nitrites well above 5ppm. The population types may change though I suspect (difference between a newly, cycled tank and a more 'bulletproof' tank after 6 months).

I see no reason to start stocking. The tank is still unstable and still within time frames that the autotrophic bacteria take. Up to the OP - here these would (sadly) be quite exotic fish - I'm sure there is enough experience here to do a fish-in cycle though if down that road.

Autotrophic Nitrifying Bacteria and Their Practical Application in a Freshwater Aquarium

Heterotrophic Bacteria and Their Practical Application in a Freshwater Aquarium

Places like Angels Plus sell established filters. Never used them but heard good reports.

Biologically Active Sponge Filters for Aquarium

I'll read through again after coffee. It would be interesting to find out if your water is low or high KH (soft or hard). PH dropping rapidly from tap (7.6?) to tank (6 or 6.4?) suggests kh is being chewed through rapidly. It needs to be maintained or the cycle will slow down for the bacteria you likely have. Thread reads as a low ph issue.

Copied in below:

1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.

For every gram of ammonia oxidised into nitrate 4.8 grams of oxygen is used, 7.14 grams of calcium carbonate is used (thus why pH crash can occur in tanks with to little buffering capacity).

Some tanks require either the addition of extra water changes or added carbonates while cycling to keep the ph around above 7.

Not sure if you tested tap water? If not I would test for everything, let a jar of water sit for 24hrs to gas off, etc and then re-test ph to get an idea of true ph.

Here my tap is about 8.2, after 24hrs is say 7.6. Some here do age the water before use. I do think that makes sense and allows temps to come up, prime is just that convenient. The water is soft (low kh), so I usually check this every quarter as it can change (summer water very soft).

I have an injected CO2 tank, I gave up on snails as the shells were getting pitting in low ph. In a small tank with them I added cuttlefish shell.

I had already decided to wait until I can stabilize this tank before adding the dwarf puffers. I have had them in the past and know what they require. I'm not sure what you meant by (sadly) these would be exotic fish. Do you think I should start rethinking about whether I should have them because of my water issues?

I will do what you suggested about testing a jar of tap water after it has sat out for 24 hours because I am concerned about what's going on with the pH. I tested my water this morning - after dosing up to 1 ppm of ammonia yesterday about 4 pm and my pH was back down to at least 6.0 after having been around 6.4 yesterday after a 50% water change. Straight out of my tap, the pH is at least 7.6. Do you think I should add a cuttlefish bone to my tank to help stabilize the pH?

I also spent over $20 for an Angels Plus "established sponge filter" and saw absolutely no difference in my cycle. That was probably 2 weeks ago. I did read on their website after I ordered it (of course) that they don't support using their established sponges in tanks using ammonia. So, I have kept the sponge in there and after about a week, cut it up and put it into my HOB filter hoping that might help.

This morning's water readings are: pH 6.0, ammonia .25, nitrites 0, nitrates 40. I do see improvement in the amount of time it's taking to convert the ammonia. It took about 12 hours to convert 1 ppm down to .25, so that is an improvement. It was taking about 48 hours about 3 days ago.

 

[Delapool]

Sorry, I was in bit of a rush - the sadly part relates to Western Australia having more limited fish and plant types here. So here these would be exotic (higher cost) and this influences my thinking on fish-in versus fish-less cycling. Hopefully that makes sense.

I think the improvement is due to the water change and at the moment tank is in a ph crash (the bacteria consume ph/kh and then slow down). So for either fish-in or fish-less, I would add crushed coral or cuttlefish bone (it's all carbonates). The reaction speed depends on grain size / water flow. So crushed coral in the filter will "dissolve" faster but I have just put cuttlefish bone under the filter out-flow. Baking soda will also work but you would need to look up the dosage and I'd start on low dosage side as a very quick ph change (as a fine powder). But can't really damage the bacteria so you can experiment between dosing vs water changes to keep ph >7.

I would pick up a kh test kit if funds allow or check the town tap water report for kh. If kh is too low (very soft), it's worth keeping an eye on so you don't get a ph decrease and then ph bounce back up with a water change.

That's interesting on the established filters and ammonia. Did they say why? I can't think of any reason so just out of interest.

 

[drm315]

Sorry, I was in bit of a rush - the sadly part relates to Western Australia having more limited fish and plant types here. So here these would be exotic (higher cost) and this influences my thinking on fish-in versus fish-less cycling. Hopefully that makes sense.

I think the improvement is due to the water change and at the moment tank is in a ph crash (the bacteria consume ph/kh and then slow down). So for either fish-in or fish-less, I would add crushed coral or cuttlefish bone (it's all carbonates). The reaction speed depends on grain size / water flow. So crushed coral in the filter will "dissolve" faster but I have just put cuttlefish bone under the filter out-flow. Baking soda will also work but you would need to look up the dosage and I'd start on low dosage side as a very quick ph change (as a fine powder). But can't really damage the bacteria so you can experiment between dosing vs water changes to keep ph >7.

I would pick up a kh test kit if funds allow or check the town tap water report for kh. If kh is too low (very soft), it's worth keeping an eye on so you don't get a ph decrease and then ph bounce back up with a water change.

That's interesting on the established filters and ammonia. Did they say why? I can't think of any reason so just out of interest.

While I'm running errands today I will pick up a cuttlefish bone. I'm not sure I understand where I should place it. Do you have a picture that could show me?

I will try to check our local government website page and see if kh is mentioned. From what I can tell, after looking at our city water website page, our water is on the soft side. I can't find a specific number though.

No, there was nothing on their website that said why they didn't work well with aquariums using ammonia (fishless cycle).

Thank you so much for all of your insight! I'll keep at it and hope I can stabilize it. I really want to get my dwarf puffers in there!!

 

[Delapool]

It just needs to go where there is any sort of good water flow or crushed into the filter directly. Like dissolving sugar in tea - a sugar block will just sit there for a bit. Stirred sugar grains dissolve very quickly.

This is partly why baking powder is so effective (it's already a powder so each grain presents a large surface area to the water). Crushed coral / cuttlebone is slower but safer when you have fish.

I'd add the cuttlefish bone or crushed coral and see what happens. A kh test kit would be useful now. If the ph keeps dropping rapidly than I'd add some baking soda as well (very slowly).

If you are used to dosing chemicals into a tank and have the test kit - baking soda is fine. It's just very quick to change ph sometimes. I have a planted tank and I dose nitrates - I'll get nitrate results of:- Too low, too low, too low, way too high, stop dosing, still way too high (curse and extra water change).

Going forward when fish are in the tank, I'd try to maintain ph with cuttlebone / crushed coral and water changes first. If that didn't work, then the extra baking soda.

 

[Delapool]

Thanks for feedback on website - very odd.

 

[drm315]

Got some cuttlebone and broke it in two pieces and put them in my two filter intakes. We'll see if that helps at all....

I just was reading some other postings on this forum and someone said that wood in the tank will cause pH to drop. I do have two pieces of wood in this tank. Could this be the cause of the pH problem? It comes out of the tap around 7.4-7.6 and then when retested about 12-24 hours later it's back down to 6.0.

I'll post a pic so you can see the wood...this is a 28 gallow bowfront tank. Both pieces of wood are around 6-8 inches long with anubias rooted in them.

 

[drm315]

So, here are this morning's water readings:
ph 6.4?
ammonia - .25-.50ppm
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 40

I also tested a sample of water from my tap that I let off gas for 24 hours to get a more true reading of my ph. I tried to get my husband's advice on this one, as well, because it was a little harder for me to decide on the number. Does it look close to 6.8?

What I did yesterday to try to bring the ph up was add two pieces of cuttlefish bone to each of my HOB filters and I also removed a small plant pot that I had in there. Decided that since I didn't know what it was glazed with, it could be causing problems with the water.

I am happy in that it is taking a shorter period to convert the ammonia now. I dosed the tank to 1 ppm yesterday(about 14 hours ago) and it has come down to .25-.50. Yesterday it was converting the 1 ppm in a 24 hour period, so I AM making headway.

 

[drm315]

MORE ph questions....

This afternoon I've been reading a lot about ph and what are some reasons it rises or falls upon a water change and decided to test my ph again today. I have never thought to test for high ph, so I thought while I was testing I might as well see what showed up on the high ph test.

In the picture, the blue color to the far left is what water out of my tap that has sat out for about 36 hours tests. I would say in the 7.6 range...

The picture in the middle is my tank water tested with the regular ph drops and the picture on the right is my tank water tested with the high ph drops.

Can anyone decipher what the ph in my tank really is?

The drop is so drastic after a water change (from like 7.6 to, I thought 6-6.4), but when looking at the "high ph" test results, could it really be closer to 7.4? I can't keep dwarf puffers if I'm going to have such drastic changes in ph upon a water change and I do not have the room in my house to keep buckets of water around to age for water changes. If taking out the driftwood would help stabilize the ph, so it's closer to what comes out of my tap, then I'm fine removing it. But, this trying to guess at it is really driving me nuts!

 

[Delapool]

Wood will lower PH but effects will drop off over time. I'd leave it for moment.


Very quickly as moonlighting at work, it's hard to tell off photo's. I jotted down 6.4 for tank and 7 or 7.2 for tap but may have confused myself. My tank sits in that horrible range for ph so I gave up and got a ph pen.


Next time in at shop I'd get kh tested. Or grab a kh test kit. That's what I'd do to sort out. If kh is very low, carbonate buffers will always be needed (depending on fish). If kh is ok, then it's likely the driftwood and establishing tank are just using a lot - once established it will be ok. At one stage I didn't even test ph, just tested kh.