Tank wont cycle-its been 2 months! help

[jetajockey]

As far as bio load is concerned, there are three filters in there. each has a bio filter component. the two sponges from angels plus are huge. I would think that if bacteria were doubling every 24 hours that it would be able to handle the bio load in the tank now. there is plenty of substrate to colonize. If I had 4 fish in there and it took 3 days to handle that load, then on the 4thday it should be able to handle 8 fish and then on the 5 th day it should be able to handle 12 fish...thoughts?

Its been two weeks so plenty of time for bacteria to multiply if they were there...

It would be cool if it worked as simply as people often put it. The documentation does claim that they grow exponentially but I also believe this is under optimal conditions. I've cycled many tanks from small store displays bursting with fish to a few tiny fish in a huge tank. One thing I've learned from it is for the easiest cycle I have to stock very lightly and add some low demand plants.

I know its not an attractive option to have to move fish out but I look at it from a workload standpoint. If 20 fish bioload means I have to do a wc every 24hr then removing half of that should effectively expand my wc interval to 48hr and so on and so forth. Its just a rough guideline but the goal for me is to eliminate the 'omgosh fish in cycling is so hard because you have to do constant pwc' type circumstances.

 

[jjustinia11]

It would be cool if it worked as simply as people often put it. The documentation does claim that they grow exponentially but I also believe this is under optimal conditions. I've cycled many tanks from small store displays bursting with fish to a few tiny fish in a huge tank. One thing I've learned from it is for the easiest cycle I have to stock very lightly and add some low demand plants.

I know its not an attractive option to have to move fish out but I look at it from a workload standpoint. If 20 fish bioload means I have to do a wc every 24hr then removing half of that should effectively expand my wc interval to 48hr and so on and so forth. Its just a rough guideline but the goal for me is to eliminate the 'omgosh fish in cycling is so hard because you have to do constant pwc' type circumstances.

I dont mind doing the water changes, which is every 48 hours to keep it under 1PPM. The issue is getting it to complete the cycle. The worry is what may have killed the BB from angels plus if they were there. If I don't solve that problem the tank will never cycle regardless of the bioload. Make sense. I enjoy taking care of the fish and have no problem doing the water change if I know if will achieve a successful cycle. So to be clear, not trying to lessen my burden. trying to solve the mystery of where the BB went so I can assure they come back. Much of what I have been stating has been my deductive process of elimination and me also giving you timing of water changes and concentration of ammonia so you tell me if I am letting the ammonia get too high at 1PPM. and if 48 hour interval implies some amount of biofilter coping with the load as it is not everyday. Before it was, now its not.

 

[jetajockey]

The thing is, if something is keeping bacteria from living it should also be keeping the fish from living. So at this point I'd just assume that it had some stalls and just wait it out.

Another note, sodium thiosulfate, the active ingredient in dechlorinators, also detoxifies heavy metals.

 

[jjustinia11]

Another week.no nitrites and no nitrates. 60% water changes every other day with seachem prime.

 

[TangoTank]

Another week.no nitrites and no nitrates. 60% water changes every other day with seachem prime.

How's the other water parameters? There's no plants, right? And you have fish? You should have Nitrates. Maybe the 60% PWCs are keeping Nitrates down but I'd say maybe the WCs are keeping NitrItes down causing the Nitrogen Cycle to stall?? Hopefully a Pro will chime in. And I could be totally off on my theories. Doesn't explain all your past bumps in your cycle--too much coincidence here. I hope it works the kinks out soon! Keep updating us & hopefully we can help, at the very least, offer encouragement! Wish I had a crystal ball & could tell ya exactly what was going on. Must be frustrating.

 

[jjustinia11]

Thanks that's a good thought.but if there were nitrite producing bacteria, those are the ones that consume/convert ammonia, so I would expect a declining ammonia level. I am not seeing ammonia decline.does that thinking make sense? Am I missing something in this logic?

 

[TangoTank]

Too much Ammonia can also stall the cycle. The Ammonia & NitrItes are toxic to fish so PWC's are needed when these levels get high. Yes, you'd see NitrAtes AND a reduction in Ammonia. How much & often do you feed the fish?? Over feeding can cause Ammonia (I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, this thread is do long & I don't remember what has/hasn't been said)--Uneaten food plus more waste from the fish if you're feeding too much add to the Ammonia. I'd feed every other day til you get your Nitrogen Cycle figured out. I also forget how big your tank is but maybe you could do several quick small WCs more often--it'll keep the BB from getting overwhelmed by Ammonia & less major change on the fish all at once unless you have parameter spikes which is a different beast. Like I sometimes just stick a gallon jug in til it fills up & already have a gallon jug temp matched & Prime-dosed ready to go. So simple, no hoses & buckets, etc. but my 1 tank I do that w/ is only 15 gallons.

PS--Did you know products like Prime are only good for about 24-48 hrs. If the water sits w/ Prime in it for longer than that, you need to retreat it before adding to the tank. Prime breaks the Chlorine/Chloramine bond & turns it into a form of Ammonia the BB can use up.

 

[jjustinia11]

I don't let the ammonia level get above 1ppm. Feeding once a day.

 

[TangoTank]

Hmm... Well, I'm perplexed what's going on w/ your cycle especially where you had seeded media. I just set up a new tank w/ filters from my old tank. I'm battling a mini-cycle, not fun but at least it's making me think twice about buying more fish & aquarium stuff!! It's an addicting hobby! Keep us updated & if anything changes let us know! I'm curious if you're having some bizarre silent cycle & all of the sudden, it'll just be cycled or you'll just start to see a steady rise in NitrAtes & Ammonia reduce. Good luck!

 

[jjustinia11]

Yes, its frustrating that it is not appearing to be making any progress. although I went away and reduced feeding to 1 once per day and when I return after 3 days the ammonia level was only .5 PPM. Then 24 hours later the ammonia was about 1 PPM. granted I fed them when I returned. but the insight is that it took a total of 4 days to get to 1 PPM which is slower then in the past. I did a smaller PWC at that point about 45%. I will see where ammonia levels are tomorrow.

My question to the group is how high should I let the ammonia get before doing a PWC? Is 1 too low? should I wait till 2 to give BB more opportunity to feed? that would be useful discussion to guide my actions.

Fish seem fine except one cobra guppy (I have 3) seem to have his tail nipped by the other fish when I reduce the feeding. he has a two bites on his fancy tail, but seems to be fine. I see the glo fish chase him from time to time. He does not seem stressed though. he chases the sword tail from time to time. the other 2 guppies have no nips at all. weird?

 

[jjustinia11]

maybe something is happening!?! advice needed

So I went away for the weekend and when I came I tested and got these results. I have attached a photo. Ammonia is some where between 1 and 2 PPM. NitrItes are still 0. BUT it seems that I have some nitrAtes!!! From the color it appears to be 0.5 PPM. This is a first. What do others make of the test in the picture and how do you think I should proceed. I was about to do a water change but I am not sure any more. How should I proceed.

 

[jetajockey]

There's a fine line between safe ammonia levels and toxic, and it's one that you don't want to teeter on if possible. Having 'too low' of a concentration is a non issue, as long as something is producing ammonia in the tank it will cycle.

What was your pH again? I'd probably do a 50% pwc any time I was reading 1.0. The nitrates showing up is a good sign, and doing a PWC is not going to affect them in an significant way, it's just a sign that things are progressing.

 

[jjustinia11]

There's a fine line between safe ammonia levels and toxic, and it's one that you don't want to teeter on if possible. Having 'too low' of a concentration is a non issue, as long as something is producing ammonia in the tank it will cycle.

What was your pH again? I'd probably do a 50% pwc any time I was reading 1.0. The nitrates showing up is a good sign, and doing a PWC is not going to affect them in an significant way, it's just a sign that things are progressing.

Thanks, that is what I was looking to hear. What is the the level I should try and keep the ammonia at 0.5 PPM?

What is notable is that NitrItes never moved from zero.

Ph is 7.6 extremely stable. Just did a 40% PWC.

 

[jetajockey]

The lowest you can keep the ammonia the better.

Based on your pH, assuming it's stable, you should be fine doing a big wc any time it rises up to about 1.0ppm. At this point I would try to figure out how big of a WC to do to get it to where you only have to do a WC every 3-4 days or so, just to make it easy on yourself. Plus leaving the tank alone as much as possible is a good thing, I know some people say that WC's don't hurt the bacteria colony but it is bound to, to some extent.

The nitrite thing is not that unusual, in a fish-in cycle situation the ammonia conversion is so gradual that you may miss a nitrite spike completely. It takes so long to build up to a noticeable amount that the bacteria have lots of time to grow to compensate for it.

 

[jjustinia11]

The lowest you can keep the ammonia the better.

Based on your pH, assuming it's stable, you should be fine doing a big wc any time it rises up to about 1.0ppm. At this point I would try to figure out how big of a WC to do to get it to where you only have to do a WC every 3-4 days or so, just to make it easy on yourself. Plus leaving the tank alone as much as possible is a good thing, I know some people say that WC's don't hurt the bacteria colony but it is bound to, to some extent.

The nitrite thing is not that unusual, in a fish-in cycle situation the ammonia conversion is so gradual that you may miss a nitrite spike completely. It takes so long to build up to a noticeable amount that the bacteria have lots of time to grow to compensate for it.

Thank you. How long would you expect before the ammonia stays under control?

 

[jetajockey]

There's no telling, fish-in cycling with no seeded media or plants can take 4-8 weeks give or take.

 

[jjustinia11]

There's no telling, fish-in cycling with no seeded media or plants can take 4-8 weeks give or take.

So here is how things are looking today. I have attached a pic of latest tests. the colors in photo are a little off, but ammonia looks to be in between .25 and .50, which is pretty good i think. I was expecting over 1. still no nitrItres. and Nitrates are 10PPM even though the pics looks more like 5, in real life its a perfect match for 10PPM. Seems to be progressing I think.

I am going to wait a day or 2 till ammonia is over .5 to do next water change. thoughts? I did the last one about 2 and a half days ago.

 

[jetajockey]

I agree with that, definitely making progress! I'd keep close tabs on a nitrite spike, but if it does come it's a bit easier to deal with.

 

[jjustinia11]

I agree with that, definitely making progress! I'd keep close tabs on a nitrite spike, but if it does come it's a bit easier to deal with.

Today's update, I am happy to report that ammonia seems to be dropping on its own. Ammonia is at .25 PPM.

still zero nitrItes.

and NitrAtes are firmly at 10PPM.

I have not done a water change waiting for ammonia to go to zero hopefully! Unless NitrAtes get too high but they seem steady. does that make sense? How high would be too high for NitrAtes? 40 PPM???

 

[librarygirl]

Looks good! Glad to see things progressing! Everyone has a different opinion on nitrate; they aren't as toxic to fish as the other two but you don't want to let them get too high. I'd say 40 max. 20 or under is better. With the seeded filter you might not see nitrite but keep testing just in case. Good luck!