Tank wont cycle-its been 2 months! help

[jjustinia11]

if you have another cycled tank, the 38, why dont you take seeded media from that tank to seed the 55g?

 

[lorihallfrisch]

I have taken out a few ornaments and some of the substrate and a handful of filter media. I have been scared to take out too much as I dont want to de stabalize my just cycled tanks.I am really sick of huge water changes! when you do pwc does a person put in the full amt of dechlorinater /water conditioner.? I think overstocking and cycling is a terrible combination

 

[SolvingNormal]

when you do pwc does a person put in the full amt of dechlorinater /water conditioner.?

If you're adding water from a bucket, add the amount of Prime (or your choice of dechlorinator) to the bucket appropriate to the amount of water in the bucket. For example, if you have a 2.5g bucket full of water, add the appropriate amount required to treat 2.5g of water to the bucket before adding to the tank.

If you're using a Python or similar device that hooks directly to your tap, then before refilling your tank, you need to add enough Prime to treat your ENTIRE TANK - not just the water being replaced. So if you have a 40g tank and you did a 20g water change, you still need to add enough solution to treat 40g. After you put that in your tank you can then refill from your tap with the Python.

Make sense?

 

[Borderlesscott]

You only use enough dechlorinator to cover the amount of water you are replacing, if you are replacing 20 litres, use enough for 20 litres. I use a 15 litre bucket for my water changes so I dechlorinate 15 litres in the bucket then add to the tank.

 

[SolvingNormal]

You only use enough dechlorinator to cover the amount of water you are replacing, if you are replacing 20 litres, use enough for 20 litres. I use a 15 litre bucket for my water changes so I dechlorinate 15 litres in the bucket then add to the tank.

This is only true if you are using buckets and treating the water (in the buckets) before putting it into the tank. If you're using a device such as a Python, which fills the tank directly from your tap, then you must treat the tank based on the tank's total volume (before adding water) - not based on the amount you are replacing.

 

[XimeD]

You only use enough dechlorinator to cover the amount of water you are replacing, if you are replacing 20 litres, use enough for 20 litres. I use a 15 litre bucket for my water changes so I dechlorinate 15 litres in the bucket then add to the tank.

Not true, unless you are aliquoting the water going in the tank, adding dechlorinator to that water and letting it sit for a few hours you want to add enough dechlorinator to dose your FULL tank, otherwise you will dilute the dechlorinator and it might not find the chlorine in solution fast enough to prevent it from killing some of your bio-filter. I use seachem prime which is very concentrated so it's not worth the money you save by not dosing your whole tank IMO

 

[XimeD]

I would feed the fish less since less food = less water. You will not be starving if you feed them every other day but it will reduce the amount of waste.

Also, I think what the sales guy is telling you is bs (pardon my language but it makes me a little mad). Your test is fine for the reasons you already stated, and there is NO way that the fish in your tank are not producing enough ammonia to cycle your tank, proven by the fact you have to do water changes to keep them alive. It looks to me like something else might be stalling your cycle but honestly I'm not sure what. I agree that if it were a toxin from your decor other people would have seen it too, plus it probably would have killed your fish too.

Maybe you just got a bad bottle of dechlorinator? Have you always been using the same one or did you run out and replace. I would get some prime and try that for a couple more weeks and if still no nitrites there is definitely something stalling your cycle at that I would consider the drastic solutions like taking your fish out into a couple 5 gal buckets while you scrub everything in your and basically start over, them make sure to acclimate your fish when putting them back in.

Whatever you do, PLEASE DON'T FLUSH YOUR FISH DOWN THE TOILET (I really hope you were kidding about this) post them on craigslist or classifieds here I'm sure someone will take them off your hands.

Good luck

 

[XimeD]

I would feed the fish less since less food = less water. You will not be starving if you feed them every other day but it will reduce the amount of waste.

Also, I think what the sales guy is telling you is bs (pardon my language but it makes me a little mad). Your test is fine for the reasons you already stated, and there is NO way that the fish in your tank are not producing enough ammonia to cycle your tank, proven by the fact you have to do water changes to keep them alive. It looks to me like something else might be stalling your cycle but honestly I'm not sure what. I agree that if it were a toxin from your decor other people would have seen it too, plus it probably would have killed your fish too.

Maybe you just got a bad bottle of dechlorinator? Have you always been using the same one or did you run out and replace. I would get some prime and try that for a couple more weeks and if still no nitrites there is definitely something stalling your cycle at that I would consider the drastic solutions like taking your fish out into a couple 5 gal buckets while you scrub everything in your and basically start over, them make sure to acclimate your fish when putting them back in.

Whatever you do, PLEASE DON'T FLUSH YOUR FISH DOWN THE TOILET (I really hope you were kidding about this) post them on craigslist or classifieds here I'm sure someone will take them off your hands.

Good luck

I meant less food = less waste **** autocorrect

 

[Borderlesscott]

Not true, unless you are aliquoting the water going in the tank, adding dechlorinator to that water and letting it sit for a few hours you want to add enough dechlorinator to dose your FULL tank, otherwise you will dilute the dechlorinator and it might not find the chlorine in solution fast enough to prevent it from killing some of your bio-filter. I use seachem prime which is very concentrated so it's not worth the money you save by not dosing your whole tank IMO

Sorry, but I disagree - as Seachem states, Prime works instantly to dechlorinate water so leaving the water in a bucket for a period of time is pointless and can also leave you at risk of contaminates entering the water. I use a small syringe to dose at 0.4ml a bucket. I also have my filters turned off during the procedure as the water levels would be below the minuim recommended level for them hence no risk to the biofilter.
how long does it take Prime to work? - Seachem Support Forums

 

[TangoTank]

Hey... I have a 15 gal column w/ 10 small fish, so a similar situation to yours. I did not use seeded media or bottled BB for my fishless cycle. I got my tank to process 3ppm ammonia in 3 days (after 70+ days of a fishless cycle) & I didn't finish the cycle before I added fish. Did a 95% water change & I added 6 Neon Tetras & 6 or so strands of Anacharis. Water parameters were perfect everyday, did a 25% PWC (novice mistake, stickin to 10% weekly unless Params go wonky on me). About 1.5 weeks after i added tetras, I added 4 Peppered Cory Catfish. Went on a trip, had my fishkeeper do 10% PWCs every other day. I added Wisteria yesterday (all's I do is stick them in my gravel & add Leaf Zone liquid fertilizer, I really think these inexpensive lil additives that plants are really benefit my tank (my lil ecosystem)). I have yet to see any ammonia or NitrItes & haven't had a NitrAte spike yet. I've even been advised "GO SLOW." I was fully prepared that I'd be doing daily water changes. I think that w/ a fish tank, you have to be committed that it may not go textbook. I know I'm defying odds here, I should be having not-so-great water params.

I think in your case, I'd stop adding stuff just test w/ all liquid test kit, always add Prime or whatev your water conditioner is before adding water to the tank, make sure it's temp matched & eventually it'll level out. I'm sorry you may've spent extra money on items but even if you feel you wasted it, I still think your tank has benefited. Hang in there. I think you're close to being in a good spot w/ your params. If there's no NitrItes & your ammonia is low, keep up the water changes & don't worry there aren't NitrAtes unless they're too high for your fish. Good luck!! I'll follow ya & offer encouragement.

EDIT: I wanted to clarify... I started my FL cycle on May 7th but didn't get my tank processing 3ppm ammonia in 3 days until mid to late July.

 

[jjustinia11]

Thanks XimeD. I was waiting for someone to respond to the real issue from my post around angels plus. To clarify, I was not suggesting that I was going to flush the fish, just that I was backed in to a corner and the solution for me was not simple as buying a ridiculously large tank, as I don't have the space or money (really my wife will kill me and the fish if I brought in another large tank, i got in enough trouble when I came home with a 14g and not a 2g) and that I don't want to be forced into flushing them. point being that I am doing everything possible. I bought prime the other day and began using that, because it treats heavy metals. I now suspect that maybe heavy metals may have killed bb as everything else was controlled for with the original conditioners I used but not heavy metal. its the only variable. I originally used aqueon water conditioner. switched to API stresscoat+. I now am using prime, so its treating more. Its going to take time now to find. my real question was peoples opinions around angels plus and their active filter. other on the board say they had great success. I am not seeing it. should I try another active filter?

here is the thing. at the beginning, when I tried fish less cycling for 6 months. i started seeing trace nitrites. I had all the same gravel, decorations and primary filter. I was using aqueaon water conditioner at the time. unfortunately I was using the cheap test strips so I was getting directional test results. it was hard to tell if ammonia was declining. when I added the seeded active filters and the new fish that's when the nitrite disappeared and I have been stuck like that since. Since them i have upgrades to the api masters kit and seachem Prime. I dose the water in the bucket and stir before I add to the tank in a water change. I am doing 50% changes. all seems stable.

 

[XimeD]

Sorry, but I disagree - as Seachem states, Prime works instantly to dechlorinate water so leaving the water in a bucket for a period of time is pointless and can also leave you at risk of contaminates entering the water. I use a small syringe to dose at 0.4ml a bucket. I also have my filters turned off during the procedure as the water levels would be below the minuim recommended level for them hence no risk to the biofilter.
how long does it take Prime to work? - Seachem Support Forums

You can disagree all you want but it's impossible for seachem or any other dechlorinator to work instantly for 2 reasons, one is diffusion: dissolving a small volume of concentrated product in a large volume of water means it takes time for the product to spread. Two: what I said before about the dechlorinator finding the chlorine this is not instantaneous. I will give you that is possible that however many bacteria are actually killed is too little to see an effect since they reproduce every 24 hrs (the nitrosomonas I think while the nitrobacter every 12 hrs). Also you do actually dose in the buckets and this helps the diffusion issue (less volume to equalize concentration in) so, as stated by another member this method does not work when using a python. The whole tank should be dosed when the new water is going directly in the tank.

As for the "contaminants" entering the bucket water, this would only happen if one is careless enough to use a bucket that has been used for cleaning the house before in which case it would have trace chemicals left in it. But if you use a clean designated bucket the water does not get contaminated by sitting in contact to air. If this were the case then the water in your tank would get contaminated too since the surface area to volume ratio in the tank and bucket is similar.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No hard feelings on my part, just giving my opinion.

 

[XimeD]

Thanks XimeD. I was waiting for someone to respond to the real issue from my post around angels plus. To clarify, I was not suggesting that I was going to flush the fish, just that I was backed in to a corner and the solution for me was not simple as buying a ridiculously large tank, as I don't have the space or money (really my wife will kill me and the fish if I brought in another large tank, i got in enough trouble when I came home with a 14g and not a 2g) and that I don't want to be forced into flushing them. point being that I am doing everything possible. I bought prime the other day and began using that, because it treats heavy metals. I now suspect that maybe heavy metals may have killed bb as everything else was controlled for with the original conditioners I used but not heavy metal. its the only variable. I originally used aqueon water conditioner. switched to API stresscoat+. I now am using prime, so its treating more. Its going to take time now to find. my real question was peoples opinions around angels plus and their active filter. other on the board say they had great success. I am not seeing it. should I try another active filter?

here is the thing. at the beginning, when I tried fish less cycling for 6 months. i started seeing trace nitrites. I had all the same gravel, decorations and primary filter. I was using aqueaon water conditioner at the time. unfortunately I was using the cheap test strips so I was getting directional test results. it was hard to tell if ammonia was declining. when I added the seeded active filters and the new fish that's when the nitrite disappeared and I have been stuck like that since. Since them i have upgrades to the api masters kit and seachem Prime. I dose the water in the bucket and stir before I add to the tank in a water change. I am doing 50% changes. all seems stable.

I have no experience with those seeded filters so I can't really help on that one, sorry. Hopefully someone else will come along who can. from what you describe it seems to me that the stalling started when you added the angelsplus filter. I don't know I can think of some scenarios where that would happen, like the bacteria in that filter outcompeted the strains of bacteria growing in your tank, or it was contaminated somehow (and yes heavy metals is a distinct possibility) but I'm just guessing here. How do these angelsplus people culture the bacteria? Do they keep them in tank with fish or is it a fishless cycling equivalent? Honestly, I wouldn't bother with anymore of those "miracle products" if I were you. Best thing to do would be some media or substrate from someone with an established tank, that's the best seeding you can get. The big chain stores won't give you any (at least here in my area) but you might be able to find a moms n pops store that will.

I agree with what has been said by others that the bacteria in a bottle products are hit or miss at best and useless at worst. One thing I forgot to ask is are you using an ammonia detoxifying product like ammo-lock? If you are then stop using it because it ties up the ammonia in a form that is less toxic to fish but is also unusable for the bacteria so that will stall your cycle.

I'm glad you were kidding about flushing your fish and you are definitely doing everything it takes to keep so kudos to you and I hope your tank cycles soon.

 

[jjustinia11]

I have no experience with those seeded filters so I can't really help on that one, sorry. Hopefully someone else will come along who can. from what you describe it seems to me that the stalling started when you added the angelsplus filter. I don't know I can think of some scenarios where that would happen, like the bacteria in that filter outcompeted the strains of bacteria growing in your tank, or it was contaminated somehow (and yes heavy metals is a distinct possibility) but I'm just guessing here. How do these angelsplus people culture the bacteria? Do they keep them in tank with fish or is it a fishless cycling equivalent? Honestly, I wouldn't bother with anymore of those "miracle products" if I were you. Best thing to do would be some media or substrate from someone with an established tank, that's the best seeding you can get. The big chain stores won't give you any (at least here in my area) but you might be able to find a moms n pops store that will.

I agree with what has been said by others that the bacteria in a bottle products are hit or miss at best and useless at worst. One thing I forgot to ask is are you using an ammonia detoxifying product like ammo-lock? If you are then stop using it because it ties up the ammonia in a form that is less toxic to fish but is also unusable for the bacteria so that will stall your cycle.

I'm glad you were kidding about flushing your fish and you are definitely doing everything it takes to keep so kudos to you and I hope your tank cycles soon.

thanks! this is what angels plus says on their site. They breed premium angel fish mostly. They also sell this:

"Active Filters

These are fully cycled filters and are biologically active. They are taken from our disease-free tanks and contain a large, healthy colony of nitrifying bacteria and other beneficial micro organisms. A healthy tank contains a lot more than just some nitrifying bacteria and our active filters have the other essential mico-organisms. These filters provide an instant-cycle for any aquarium you put them in. You can safely add fish to the tank immediately after placing one of these in the tank. Read about a test done on them by a hobbyist here. We put them in our fully-cycled tanks for 4-6 weeks prior to selling them, with the sole purpose of providing them to customers. This is a far superior way of "starting" a new tank, when compared to other bacteria starters. We are certain that our active filters work many times faster and better than the next best cycling product on the market. "

There is a link to fishlores website where people rave about these...go figure.

 

[jetajockey]

Go figure, look who did the test in that link. Its me. I don't get paid or any perks from them or any of the other products I tested, I did it purely for the sake of others who could reference some real data rather than just random people saying something does or doesn't work.

The product just like all others is not perfect and can fail. There's lots of variables that can cause a cycling stall, we just try to help narrow it down.

If you've been fishless cycling for 6 months prior to this and its still not cycled I think there is definitely something else causing the problem.

 

[jjustinia11]

Go figure, look who did the test in that link. Its me. I don't get paid or any perks from them or any of the other products I tested, I did it purely for the sake of others who could reference some real data rather than just random people saying something does or doesn't work.

The product just like all others is not perfect and can fail. There's lots of variables that can cause a cycling stall, we just try to help narrow it down.

If you've been fishless cycling for 6 months prior to this and its still not cycled I think there is definitely something else causing the problem.

To clarify, I was fishless cycling for 6 WEEKS and had nitrItes for the last week. Thats when I got the seeded Angels plus filter and added it to the system. Nothing else changed only the addition of the sponge after a large quick water change with conditioned water. Same water source that was in the tank for the fishless cycle. So, it was working slowly prior to adding the sponge from angels plus and then it crashed. I am now using Prime and ammonia is well controlled with water changes every other day.

So you tell me. The fish are fine. Two seeded filters from angels plus have not worked. they are running together in the tank now. I have no nitrites or nitrates anymore and ammonia does not clear without a water change 50% bring it down from 1ppm to .25PPM.

I did not accuse you of being paid. just telling my point of view. these filters dont work now. Maybe something happened over there, obviously bacteria and the methods change, as you tested a couple of years ago. I can not find a problem with my system, I am taking all the precautions. the only thing that is a variable is the Seeded sponge filter from angels plus. two of them...they dont work. its been two weeks now since the first one was added.

I still have them in there. hoping to provide a large opportunity for BB to colonize.

I did get a red ramshorn infestation from the second sponge

I took out 7 tiny snails and I am growing them in a little tank and the other fish ate the rest so far. they are now well fed.

jetajockey, I would be interested in what else you think I can try to identify what may have damaged the BB that were, allegedly, colonized on/in the seeded filter from angels plus. I want to find a problem so I can fix it.

All input is welcome!

Thanks!

 

[jetajockey]

To clarify, I was fishless cycling for 6 WEEKS and had nitrItes for the last week. Thats when I got the seeded Angels plus filter and added it to the system. Nothing else changed only the addition of the sponge after a large quick water change with conditioned water. Same water source that was in the tank for the fishless cycle. So, it was working slowly prior to adding the sponge from angels plus and then it crashed. I am now using Prime and ammonia is well controlled with water changes every other day.

I was going by what you said in post 31, that's why I said 6 months, my apologies.

So you tell me. The fish are fine. Two seeded filters from angels plus have not worked. they are running together in the tank now. I have no nitrites or nitrates anymore and ammonia does not clear without a water change 50% bring it down from 1ppm to .25PPM.

It doesn't sound like they are working to me. Could be a few reasons as to why.

I did not accuse you of being paid. just telling my point of view. these filters dont work now. Maybe something happened over there, obviously bacteria and the methods change, as you tested a couple of years ago. I can not find a problem with my system, I am taking all the precautions. the only thing that is a variable is the Seeded sponge filter from angels plus. two of them...they dont work. its been two weeks now since the first one was added.

I still have them in there. hoping to provide a large opportunity for BB to colonize.

I did get a red ramshorn infestation from the second sponge

I took out 7 tiny snails and I am growing them in a little tank and the other fish ate the rest so far. they are now well fed.

jetajockey, I would be interested in what else you think I can try to identify what may have damaged the BB that were, allegedly, colonized on/in the seeded filter from angels plus. I want to find a problem so I can fix it.

All input is welcome!

Thanks!

I understand, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not a shill plugging some product that I have a vested interest in.

6 weeks into fishless cycling is kinda on the long end but not totally unheard of. You'd think that with that time plus the time fish-in things would be settled down by now, but they obviously aren't.

As to why the seeded filter didn't work, I can think of a few variables. Temperature. It's been quite hot the past several weeks, and this bacteria is sensitive. If they still use UPS ground in uninsulated boxes then it could have been exposed to high temps in transit. That would definitely impact the bacteria, maybe not kill them outright but its anyone's guess.

Another possibility is a difference in parameters. Different bacteria species thrive in different pH/temp ranges, so there is a likelihood of a 'shock' period for bacteria to get adjusted. Again, may or may not be an issue, just a possibility.

You said your pH was stable, right? If it's holding in the 7s and not fluctuating then I would rule out a lack of buffers.

It sounds like you are doing well as far as reducing ammonia via pwc's. The only thing I'd go back to is if you want to eventually reduce the pwc frequency then you have to reduce the bioload until the biofilter can compensate. That's done primarily by reducing stock, but cutting back on feeding also helps, especially in smaller tanks. The fish are fine being fed every couple of days rather than daily (or multiple times a day), and less food in = less waste out. I know feeding is one of the most enjoyable parts of fishkeeping but in the early stages of a tank setup it's best to keep it sparse.

 

[jjustinia11]

I was going by what you said in post 31, that's why I said 6 months, my apologies.

It doesn't sound like they are working to me. Could be a few reasons as to why.


I understand, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not a shill plugging some product that I have a vested interest in.

6 weeks into fishless cycling is kinda on the long end but not totally unheard of. You'd think that with that time plus the time fish-in things would be settled down by now, but they obviously aren't.

As to why the seeded filter didn't work, I can think of a few variables. Temperature. It's been quite hot the past several weeks, and this bacteria is sensitive. If they still use UPS ground in uninsulated boxes then it could have been exposed to high temps in transit. That would definitely impact the bacteria, maybe not kill them outright but its anyone's guess.

Another possibility is a difference in parameters. Different bacteria species thrive in different pH/temp ranges, so there is a likelihood of a 'shock' period for bacteria to get adjusted. Again, may or may not be an issue, just a possibility.

You said your pH was stable, right? If it's holding in the 7s and not fluctuating then I would rule out a lack of buffers.

It sounds like you are doing well as far as reducing ammonia via pwc's. The only thing I'd go back to is if you want to eventually reduce the pwc frequency then you have to reduce the bio-load until the bio-filter can compensate. That's done primarily by reducing stock, but cutting back on feeding also helps, especially in smaller tanks. The fish are fine being fed every couple of days rather than daily (or multiple times a day), and less food in = less waste out. I know feeding is one of the most enjoyable parts of fish-keeping but in the early stages of a tank setup it's best to keep it sparse.

Thanks. A little more info. My Ph is rock steady at 7.6 out of the tap and in the tank. temp in my tank is rock steady at 78f. water changes has tap water within 1 to 2 degrees. I have two thermometers as I was shocked at how the temp never moved .

You are correct when the first filter arrive it was within 2 days. it was the days where the temp was crazy hot, so I thought that the high temp in shipping truck killed them. that is why I ordered another when the temps went down. both filter were brought inside immediately and dropped in to the tank with all the water that was in the bag.

As far as bio load is concerned, there are three filters in there. each has a bio filter component. the two sponges from angels plus are huge. I would think that if bacteria were doubling every 24 hours that it would be able to handle the bio load in the tank now. there is plenty of substrate to colonize. If I had 4 fish in there and it took 3 days to handle that load, then on the 4thday it should be able to handle 8 fish and then on the 5 th day it should be able to handle 12 fish...thoughts?

Its been two weeks so plenty of time for bacteria to multiply if they were there...

To your other point, fish or without fish the tank has been cycling for 2 months now, so something is up and I cannot figure it out. My only suspect is heavy metals in the water. the two conditioner I used previously did not treat them. I am now using prime for 2 days now. hoping that will make a difference as it treats heavy metals.

 

[SolvingNormal]

Are you aware of the need to whack the crap out of the second nitrate testing bottle? I assume you're following the testing directions that came with the kit, but they don't really tell you to bang that sucker against a table a few times and really shake the heck out of it. Otherwise your results will be off. Just FYI.

Can you take a sample of your water anyplace to verify your results? Or do you know anyone with a cycled tank (or pond) that you could get a water sample from to test (and compare your results to theirs)?

 

[jjustinia11]

Are you aware of the need to whack the crap out of the second nitrate testing bottle? I assume you're following the testing directions that came with the kit, but they don't really tell you to bang that sucker against a table a few times and really shake the heck out of it. Otherwise your results will be off. Just FYI.

Can you take a sample of your water anyplace to verify your results? Or do you know anyone with a cycled tank (or pond) that you could get a water sample from to test (and compare your results to theirs)?

I do know to whack it. I drop it and bang it on the floor. What I am missing is test for parameters beyond what is covered in the API master kit. there is no clorine, heavy metal, etc. just ammonia, nitrate, nitrite and Ph (low and high).

I have a petco near me and they are useless. I went to another local store and they were not really familiar with cycling. not much around me. I am in westcher, ny. anyone know some place?