Wild or Domestic?

[Bill22]

Given the choice and availability would you choose to purchase wild caught fish or domestically bred fish?

 

[Toad]

Depends on the fish and why I'm I gtting them.

If kept marine I'd say no, because of reef depletion and how they catch a lot of them.

I keep fresh though, so if I was planning on breeding them for money/conservation of species, or looking for a very special type of look, I'd say yes. Otherwise I'd say I'd be good with domestically bred.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[nirbhao]

The idea of taking a creature from the wild and keeping it in a box, even a very nice box, is a bit hard for me. I'm new enough to the hobby that I don't have a taste for the fancy wild caught.

Splash and Bubbles is making me want a Mandarin dragnet, though.

 

[loubeardy]

I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home

 

[Coursair]

The idea of taking a creature from the wild and keeping it in a box, even a very nice box, is a bit hard for me. I'm new enough to the hobby that I don't have a taste for the fancy wild caught.

Splash and Bubbles is making me want a Mandarin dragnet, though.

Mandarin Dragonets tend to starve in captivity. Expert only IMHO. Just FYI They are all wild caught and some never acclimate. They may only eat live food.

 

[nirbhao]

Mandarin Dragonets tend to starve in captivity. Expert only IMHO. Just FYI They are all wild caught and some never acclimate. They may only eat live food.

Plus they aren't voiced by Abby Cadabby.

I apologize for being unclear. I know that people are falling all over themselves for Nemos and Dories. Marine isn't in our foreseeable future. They are beautiful, though.

 

[Andy Sager]

WOW, a lot of opinions here but not many good facts being represented. I'd like to address some of these comments with some facts:

Depends on the fish and why I'm I gtting them.

If kept marine I'd say no, because of reef depletion and how they catch a lot of them.

I keep fresh though, so if I was planning on breeding them for money/conservation of species, or looking for a very special type of look, I'd say yes. Otherwise I'd say I'd be good with domestically bred.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Fish depletion has more to do with habitat/reef destruction and over fishing than fish collection. (Many fish we keep in marine & freshwater tanks are used as food fish in other parts of the world.) Many of the fish we keep in freshwater are not found in the wild in the colors available in the stores. For example, you would be hard pressed to find, say, a Pigeon Discus in the wild as it's a man made coloration. Same with most livebearers, Angelfish, Gouramis, Bettas, and others. Most wild caught fish don't have the flashy colors that you find in the shop today. So if you were choosing between a domesticated version of a similar wild fish, you might just find that the wild fish is a stronger healthier fish than the domestic one.

The idea of taking a creature from the wild and keeping it in a box, even a very nice box, is a bit hard for me. I'm new enough to the hobby that I don't have a taste for the fancy wild caught.

Splash and Bubbles is making me want a Mandarin dragnet, though.

I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home

While this is a typical novice opinion in fish keeping, as you get further into the hobby you will realize that when kept properly, a wild fish is actually safer in a tank than in the wild. #1 reason: NO predation by other fish. ( Remember, I said "when kept properly." ) With today's world being in the destructive mode that it is in, many fish are in danger of becoming extinct in the wild and collecting and breeding these wild fish ( usually in tanks ) is quickly becoming a means to help save species of total extinction. There is also evidence of depleted species coming back once the collection of the remaining fish has stopped ( usually due to successful breeding programs) or sustainable collection habits are established. Over population in wild stock is not usually an issue as only a small percentage of fish fry become breeding adults in "the circle of life" however, domesticated fish are not subject to a higher amount of depletion by natural predation thereby allowing poorer quality fish to make it to market.

As for the cruelty of fish keeping, the same could be said about miniature dogs, horses, pigs, cats and a whole host of animals that have been altered from their wild state to make mankind a new pet. My biggest question regarding cruelty in fish is this: If I create a habitat that allows my wild fish to find food, congregate amongst their own ( if that's the type of fish it is), live without fear of being eaten, breed and live out a natural lifespan, WHERE is the cruelty in that?

Mandarin Dragonets tend to starve in captivity. Expert only IMHO. Just FYI They are all wild caught and some never acclimate. They may only eat live food.

While Mandarins are not a good beginner fish, they are not all wild caught anymore. There are companies such as ORA that breed them and offer them and other dragonettes for sale. Blue Mandarin | Synchiropus splendidus | ORA | Oceans, Reefs & Aquariums
These domesticated fish don't just eat live foods.

Please note that my comments are not in any way meant to demean or argue with the member's posts. They are meant as a clarification of some misleading information. There is a difference between opinion and fact and while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, opinions should be monitored when offering advice especially when it goes against the facts. And that's my opinion.

To answer the OP's original question:
Having been in the hobby for as long as I have and having worked with wild and second and third generation from wild fish, I would take a wild fish over today's domesticated fish any day of the week. Many of today's fish are genetically weak and weaker than wild stock. Being a breeder for a long time as well, I see many more poor quality fish per spawn than I did back in the 60s, 70s and even the early 80s. Those new to the hobby appear to have the deck stacked against them from the start when it comes to available fish quality. ( That too is my opinion but it's based on real facts. )

 

[nirbhao]

While this is a typical novice opinion in fish keeping, as you get further into the hobby you will realize that when kept properly, a wild fish is actually safer in a tank than in the wild.

Properly really is the key, and there is a difference between safe and natural.

Natural predation is part of what fish are built for. In fact, it's pretty important. For example, guppies have so many babies because lots of fish eat them.

In fact, right now, there's an issue with sea urchins in the wild not having enough natural predators. They eat the bases of kelp plants, and whole kelp forests become unmoored, which is damaging to many species of both plants and animals- both aquatic and terrestrial.

Habitat destruction and hunting are dangers they can't fight against. In that respect, I agree that they not only deserve but also need protection.

Part of that protection is from collection for the consumer market.

I live near and am a member of a zoo that is a pioneer in humane treatment of animals, breeding programs, and programs to reintroduce endangered critters. They have breeding pairs of giraffes, red pandas, African bush dogs, and other critically endangered animals. They also rescue animals who have been harmed in the wild and who were inappropriately kept as pets.

The footprint of the zoo is 125 acres, and they have refused animals due to a lack of size.

This is where we get back to hobby aquarists.

My cousins have a huge reef that requires staff upkeep. It is its own room. How many people have that? And how many people are keeping the bare minimum of schooling groups in a tank just big enough to contain them? As individuals, we flat out can't recreate a natural environment.

We can give them very good lives. We can take good care of them, keep them safe, and feed them well. We can give them plants and flow and daylight cycles, but it will never be nature.

 

[loubeardy]

I am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.

 

[loubeardy]

I am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.

bit i am new to this (like super new) so my knowledge is limited ... and I'm full aware of that... but never going to learn if I don't get involved in such posts

 

[loubeardy]

I am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.

bit i am new to this (like super new) so my knowledge is limited ... and I'm full aware of that... but never going to learn if I don't get involved in such posts

 

[Bill22]

Thanks Andy many points you make is the reason I brought this up.. Having kept fish years ago I was very familiar with swords. Thinking about stocking my tank when I finally get it going I have visited a couple of LFS to see the offerings.

I was shocked to see how terribly small these swords are today, with incorrect body shapes more descriptive of platys than swords. I bet there are few aquarists today that has actually seen how large and colourful an original sword looks. Red gills on Angels and other was another aspect I witnessed. All this the result of inbreeding, I suppose.

I was pretty disgusted about buying at any of these stores and went looking for an online supplier who had the choice of wild caught or domestic. Seemed to be a better option to get healthy subjects to start out with.

 

[Andy Sager]

Properly really is the key, and there is a difference between safe and natural.

Natural predation is part of what fish are built for. In fact, it's pretty important. For example, guppies have so many babies because lots of fish eat them.

In fact, right now, there's an issue with sea urchins in the wild not having enough natural predators. They eat the bases of kelp plants, and whole kelp forests become unmoored, which is damaging to many species of both plants and animals- both aquatic and terrestrial.

Habitat destruction and hunting are dangers they can't fight against. In that respect, I agree that they not only deserve but also need protection.

Part of that protection is from collection for the consumer market.

I live near and am a member of a zoo that is a pioneer in humane treatment of animals, breeding programs, and programs to reintroduce endangered critters. They have breeding pairs of giraffes, red pandas, African bush dogs, and other critically endangered animals. They also rescue animals who have been harmed in the wild and who were inappropriately kept as pets.

The footprint of the zoo is 125 acres, and they have refused animals due to a lack of size.

This is where we get back to hobby aquarists.

My cousins have a huge reef that requires staff upkeep. It is its own room. How many people have that? And how many people are keeping the bare minimum of schooling groups in a tank just big enough to contain them? As individuals, we flat out can't recreate a natural environment.

We can give them very good lives. We can take good care of them, keep them safe, and feed them well. We can give them plants and flow and daylight cycles, but it will never be nature.

I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.
I fully understand the concepts of zoos, their use as a tool for creating protection interest to the wild animals they represent and the amazing steps they have taken over the years to try to recreate a more natural environment but you cannot convince me that they are in fact NATURAL when you have, say, an african lion living in a zoo in England. If it were natural, there would be lions roaming the english countryside. I see no difference between that and in the fish we keep. Just because you can't pet your fish ( and some can actually debate that fact ) does not mean you cannot create a natural setting for them. The use of the word "Cruel" is where I draw the line.

 

[nirbhao]

I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.
I fully understand the concepts of zoos, their use as a tool for creating protection interest to the wild animals they represent and the amazing steps they have taken over the years to try to recreate a more natural environment but you cannot convince me that they are in fact NATURAL when you have, say, an african lion living in a zoo in England. If it were natural, there would be lions roaming the english countryside. I see no difference between that and in the fish we keep. Just because you can't pet your fish ( and some can actually debate that fact ) does not mean you cannot create a natural setting for them. The use of the word "Cruel" is where I draw the line.

At no point did I say cruel.

And zoos can't be perfectly natural, it's true, but they have the potential to be very h good instruments of conservation and education.

 

[Andy Sager]

At no point did I say cruel.

And zoos can't be perfectly natural, it's true, but they have the potential to be very h good instruments of conservation and education.

Actually, my response was a joint comment on your post as well as the post below by loubeardy who did use the word "cruel". I'm of the firm belief that fish tanks can also be " good instruments of conservation and education" as well as enjoyment. I learned a heck of a lot more about the Earth and Earth sciences from keeping my fish than from my school years. But I've spent many years and a lot of money to know what I know which is why I also know the difference between new hobbyist opinions vs experienced hobbyist ones. The more you know, the more you ( The general YOU not the specific YOU ) understand.

I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy many points you make is the reason I brought this up.. Having kept fish years ago I was very familiar with swords. Thinking about stocking my tank when I finally get it going I have visited a couple of LFS to see the offerings.

I was shocked to see how terribly small these swords are today, with incorrect body shapes more descriptive of platys than swords. I bet there are few aquarists today that has actually seen how large and colourful an original sword looks. Red gills on Angels and other was another aspect I witnessed. All this the result of inbreeding, I suppose.

I was pretty disgusted about buying at any of these stores and went looking for an online supplier who had the choice of wild caught or domestic. Seemed to be a better option to get healthy subjects to start out with.

Yes, sadly, your eyes were not deceiving you. Today's fish have not had the scrutiny and culling that the fish of years ago went through. Disfigured fish, unhealthy fish, fish with new diseases from too much inbreeding are all found in today's shops. The only way I know to change that is for people to not only not buy these fish but to tell the store's managers or owners why you aren't buying their fish. THAT says more than complaining.

 

[Toad]

Andy, not really sure why you mentioned coloring as a 'fact', most fish that are domestic have been selective bred in some way shape or form. Some people want wild coloring and types, others don't.

You say collection isn't a problem but blue tangs aren't feeling the same way right now

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-source-sustainability-animals-ocean-science/

I think wild vs domestic can be a sticky issue, most people are fine with domestic, some people prefer wild for certain species, or again, if they're doing conservation which is something everyone can applaud. Not everyone can keep these fish properly though, we see enough problems with people not being able to keep basic bettas in a proper setup.

I agree that we should be more informed as hobbyist and support those who are working towards the goals of bettering the hobby.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, not really sure why you mentioned coloring as a 'fact', most fish that are domestic have been selective bred in some way shape or form. Some people want wild coloring and types, others don't.

You say collection isn't a problem but blue tangs aren't feeling the same way right now

Do You Know Where Your Aquarium Fish Come From?

I think wild vs domestic can be a sticky issue, most people are fine with domestic, some people prefer wild for certain species, or again, if they're doing conservation which is something everyone can applaud. Not everyone can keep these fish properly though, we see enough problems with people not being able to keep basic bettas in a proper setup.

I agree that we should be more informed as hobbyist and support those who are working towards the goals of bettering the hobby.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

But that's just it. I can't speak for other parts of the world but in the U.S., the majority of the fish that are available in the hobby that are a domestic strain, do not represent the colors of their wild ancestry. There are very few species that are bred for their wild coloring. ( Now even more don't have the original body and fin shape of the originals either.) In fact, some fish don't even exist in the wild ( ie Flowerhorns and Parrot cichlids). These are not extinct in the wild. These are totally man made fish that never existed in the wild. And in the making of these new colors, the process is usually done by either line breeding or hybridization making the end product a weaker fish than a wild counterpart. In some cases, the colored dwarf gourami for example, now has a disease that was man made through the breeding methods of the fish.
One's desire for a wild colored fish vs a new color is not really the point of the OP. I believe, based on his previous post, that if you were to compare a wild version of a fish and a domesticated version of the same fish with those same colors, the wild fish would be a healthier fish and to that, I, as a breeder and someone who has had both wild and domestic fish, have to agree.

As for the "Dory" tang, the article you linked is about 1 1/2 years old and since it's publishing, that Tang has now been bred in captivity like the clownfish ( Nemo). The Blue Tang is also not only found in the 2 areas where they are regarded in the article as "over collected" and the 2 areas listed in that article also have a higher rate of reef bleaching and destructive food fishing practices that may also be a reason why there are less of them available in those areas. So we can consider this part of the comment as an unfinished conversation.

As for your comment " Not everyone can keep these fish properly.....", I have to disagree. Everybody CAN keep fish properly but are unwilling to, mostly due to the cost. The Betta argument also is not a good one as the Bettas offered in most stores are not wild Bettas and are in fact, the result of fish selectively bred to have longer fins and kept in small containers. It's the hobbyist's ill informed opinion that the fish should not be kept that way. Keeping them that way does require more work on the part of the hobbyist and that, I believe, is the origin of the whole "They shouldn't be kept that way" argument. That's not to say that what the stores are doing in keeping them in small containers in dirty water is okay as it's not, but that goes into a whole other tangent about the loss of quality Mom & Pop shops.

To finish, an informed hobbyist is a better hobbyist for sure. The biggest problem now a days is that the information most often referenced is usually the internet and that info is about wild fish while the fish being purchased are domestic lines and live in totally different conditions. There is no doubt that this can be very confusing.

 

[Toad]

Andy, some people want domestic colors, some don't. I think you and I are discussing the same point in different ways.

Two, collection can still cause problems, even in freshwater fish. You can believe otherwise, no one can stop you.

Three, not everyone can keep wild. Fish that need a select diet of live foods that someone can't afford, or can't get a hold of, or any number of things, means they CAN'T keep that fish alive, not that they are 'unwilling' to. If they don't physically have room for the large tank it might need, they can't keep it. My point about the bettas has nothing to do with wild or domestic, but the fact that it really is a simple fish to keep, and an amazing amount of human adults are incapable of doing it. You look at all the rams people kill because they're domestic and should be able to acclimate, they still need the higher temps regardless.

If you really think domestic bettas are ok in small jars because someone is 'willing to do the work' I have nothing more to say.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Bill22]

If you really think domestic bettas are ok in small jars because someone is 'willing to do the work' I have nothing more to say.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Aquarium Advice mobile app

To be fair I don't think this was what was inferred by the person's post.

I have kept a lot of fish back in the day, the 'old' way everyone frowns upon now and sure things have changed. I'm attempting to return to the hobby doing the right things. I will even cycle a tank, something entirely new to me. An old dog new tricks thing going on.

If I wanted anything but a live bearer I purchased wild caught fish or nothing at all. So I suppose this has come down to a chicken and egg argument. We would have no fish if it wasn't for the wild caught originals. I remember spending a week's wages buying a pair of wild Discus and had plenty of practice being an expectant father spending hours trying to wean them onto foods.

However somewhere along the line we needed to spruce up the hobby artificially. We took those wild fish and messed with them and not in a nice way. Angels coloured like discus, Glow Fish complete with 120V charge, Psychedelic Discus, and so on ...on and on.

I was surprised to discover that wild freshwater fish were still being caught for the hobby. Knowing that in advance, I think I could handle acclimating them. And for the consumer - who would know if one tank was locally bred or wild caught? I just went, researched and found out.

But my final point is: People would be very surprised at the wild version's size and original condition compared the fish they keep today.

Might even like them better. But I dunno ....I'm still thinking it all through.