The idea of taking a creature from the wild and keeping it in a box, even a very nice box, is a bit hard for me. I'm new enough to the hobby that I don't have a taste for the fancy wild caught.
Splash and Bubbles is making me want a Mandarin dragnet, though.
Plus they aren't voiced by Abby Cadabby.Mandarin Dragonets tend to starve in captivity. Expert only IMHO. Just FYI They are all wild caught and some never acclimate. They may only eat live food.
Depends on the fish and why I'm I gtting them.
If kept marine I'd say no, because of reef depletion and how they catch a lot of them.
I keep fresh though, so if I was planning on breeding them for money/conservation of species, or looking for a very special type of look, I'd say yes. Otherwise I'd say I'd be good with domestically bred.
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The idea of taking a creature from the wild and keeping it in a box, even a very nice box, is a bit hard for me. I'm new enough to the hobby that I don't have a taste for the fancy wild caught.
Splash and Bubbles is making me want a Mandarin dragnet, though.
While this is a typical novice opinion in fish keeping, as you get further into the hobby you will realize that when kept properly, a wild fish is actually safer in a tank than in the wild. #1 reason: NO predation by other fish. ( Remember, I said "when kept properly." ) With today's world being in the destructive mode that it is in, many fish are in danger of becoming extinct in the wild and collecting and breeding these wild fish ( usually in tanks ) is quickly becoming a means to help save species of total extinction. There is also evidence of depleted species coming back once the collection of the remaining fish has stopped ( usually due to successful breeding programs) or sustainable collection habits are established. Over population in wild stock is not usually an issue as only a small percentage of fish fry become breeding adults in "the circle of life" however, domesticated fish are not subject to a higher amount of depletion by natural predation thereby allowing poorer quality fish to make it to market.I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home
Mandarin Dragonets tend to starve in captivity. Expert only IMHO. Just FYI They are all wild caught and some never acclimate. They may only eat live food.
While this is a typical novice opinion in fish keeping, as you get further into the hobby you will realize that when kept properly, a wild fish is actually safer in a tank than in the wild.
bit i am new to this (like super new) so my knowledge is limited ... and I'm full aware of that... but never going to learn if I don't get involved in such postsI am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.
bit i am new to this (like super new) so my knowledge is limited ... and I'm full aware of that... but never going to learn if I don't get involved in such postsI am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.
I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.Properly really is the key, and there is a difference between safe and natural.
Natural predation is part of what fish are built for. In fact, it's pretty important. For example, guppies have so many babies because lots of fish eat them.
In fact, right now, there's an issue with sea urchins in the wild not having enough natural predators. They eat the bases of kelp plants, and whole kelp forests become unmoored, which is damaging to many species of both plants and animals- both aquatic and terrestrial.
Habitat destruction and hunting are dangers they can't fight against. In that respect, I agree that they not only deserve but also need protection.
Part of that protection is from collection for the consumer market.
I live near and am a member of a zoo that is a pioneer in humane treatment of animals, breeding programs, and programs to reintroduce endangered critters. They have breeding pairs of giraffes, red pandas, African bush dogs, and other critically endangered animals. They also rescue animals who have been harmed in the wild and who were inappropriately kept as pets.
The footprint of the zoo is 125 acres, and they have refused animals due to a lack of size.
This is where we get back to hobby aquarists.
My cousins have a huge reef that requires staff upkeep. It is its own room. How many people have that? And how many people are keeping the bare minimum of schooling groups in a tank just big enough to contain them? As individuals, we flat out can't recreate a natural environment.
We can give them very good lives. We can take good care of them, keep them safe, and feed them well. We can give them plants and flow and daylight cycles, but it will never be nature.
At no point did I say cruel.I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.
I fully understand the concepts of zoos, their use as a tool for creating protection interest to the wild animals they represent and the amazing steps they have taken over the years to try to recreate a more natural environment but you cannot convince me that they are in fact NATURAL when you have, say, an african lion living in a zoo in England. If it were natural, there would be lions roaming the english countryside. I see no difference between that and in the fish we keep. Just because you can't pet your fish ( and some can actually debate that fact ) does not mean you cannot create a natural setting for them. The use of the word "Cruel" is where I draw the line.
At no point did I say cruel.
And zoos can't be perfectly natural, it's true, but they have the potential to be very h good instruments of conservation and education.
I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home
Yes, sadly, your eyes were not deceiving you. Today's fish have not had the scrutiny and culling that the fish of years ago went through. Disfigured fish, unhealthy fish, fish with new diseases from too much inbreeding are all found in today's shops. The only way I know to change that is for people to not only not buy these fish but to tell the store's managers or owners why you aren't buying their fish. THAT says more than complaining.Thanks Andy many points you make is the reason I brought this up.. Having kept fish years ago I was very familiar with swords. Thinking about stocking my tank when I finally get it going I have visited a couple of LFS to see the offerings.
I was shocked to see how terribly small these swords are today, with incorrect body shapes more descriptive of platys than swords. I bet there are few aquarists today that has actually seen how large and colourful an original sword looks. Red gills on Angels and other was another aspect I witnessed. All this the result of inbreeding, I suppose.
I was pretty disgusted about buying at any of these stores and went looking for an online supplier who had the choice of wild caught or domestic. Seemed to be a better option to get healthy subjects to start out with.
But that's just it. I can't speak for other parts of the world but in the U.S., the majority of the fish that are available in the hobby that are a domestic strain, do not represent the colors of their wild ancestry. There are very few species that are bred for their wild coloring. ( Now even more don't have the original body and fin shape of the originals either.) In fact, some fish don't even exist in the wild ( ie Flowerhorns and Parrot cichlids). These are not extinct in the wild. These are totally man made fish that never existed in the wild. And in the making of these new colors, the process is usually done by either line breeding or hybridization making the end product a weaker fish than a wild counterpart. In some cases, the colored dwarf gourami for example, now has a disease that was man made through the breeding methods of the fish.Andy, not really sure why you mentioned coloring as a 'fact', most fish that are domestic have been selective bred in some way shape or form. Some people want wild coloring and types, others don't.
You say collection isn't a problem but blue tangs aren't feeling the same way right now
Do You Know Where Your Aquarium Fish Come From?
I think wild vs domestic can be a sticky issue, most people are fine with domestic, some people prefer wild for certain species, or again, if they're doing conservation which is something everyone can applaud. Not everyone can keep these fish properly though, we see enough problems with people not being able to keep basic bettas in a proper setup.
I agree that we should be more informed as hobbyist and support those who are working towards the goals of bettering the hobby.
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If you really think domestic bettas are ok in small jars because someone is 'willing to do the work' I have nothing more to say.
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