Clowns have somthing growing on them...need help!

[zenn]

Ok, my clowns started acting wierd about 2 weeks after i introduced them. I thought it was possibly ich because the bigger clown wouldn't eat for a while and both were acting generally more timid. I looked closer and noticed what appeared to be small growths on them. I wasn't for sure though since the growths weren't as white as i'm use to seeing with ich. It was almost as if they growths were the same color as their body's just more of a lump. I moved them both to qt after observing them for another day and began lowering SG so i could administer hypo. Since doing so, the bigger clown has started eating again and the smaller one has continued to eat healthily.

But the growths seems to continue to grow on the smaller clown especially. They almost seem to be attacking his right fin now. So i took pics in hope someone could ID what is wrong so i might be able to remedy the sickenss.

This is the smaller clown with the larger growths on his right side

This is the bigger clown with a small growth on his mouth (looks almost white in this photo probably due to the flash mostly).

Anybody have any ideas?

 

[steve-s]

I looked closer and noticed what appeared to be small growths on them. I wasn't for sure though since the growths weren't as white as i'm use to seeing with ich. It was almost as if they growths were the same color as their body's just more of a lump.

Any additional symptoms... excess slime/haziness, color loss, red sores/bloody areas, increased or laboured gilling. In the first pic, I also see some growth/protrusion around the anal fin, yes?

I moved them both to qt after observing them for another day and began lowering SG so i could administer hypo. Since doing so, the bigger clown has started eating again and the smaller one has continued to eat healthily.

Hypo conditions work very well for rekindling the appetite.

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

I looked closer and noticed what appeared to be small growths on them. I wasn't for sure though since the growths weren't as white as i'm use to seeing with ich. It was almost as if they growths were the same color as their body's just more of a lump.

Any additional symptoms... excess slime/haziness, color loss, red sores/bloody areas, increased or laboured gilling. In the first pic, I also see some growth/protrusion around the anal fin, yes?

Cheers
Steve

maybe excess slime. No red sores or bloddy areas. There is definentially some increased labouring of the gills by the bigger clown only(the one that wouldn't eat for a while). The little one doesn't seem to be breathing faster at all. I haven't been able to see any real signs of them losing color either.

The bigger clown does have what appears to be a string of slime coming out of his underside many times. And i've noticed that it started when the other symptoms started.

The littler clown seems to have the most growths on him. And yes, he does have growths by his anal fin. But most of the bumps are concentrated in one area. The bumps seem to be spreading to his right fin and even further up his side(an of course by his anal fin like you pointed out). But unlike ich, these growths have only appeared on one side of the fish right in the middle of his body. Usually ich is all over and spreads fairly quickly IME. I guess it could still be ich but it just seems a little different.

Here's another pic:

 

[zenn]

about.com has a 'saltwater disease troubleshooter' thing that led me to this recommended course or action:

Diagnosis from about.com= fungas infection

Recommended treatment = Most fungal infections are fairly easy to treat. You can just add a saltwater fish fungicide (which you can find at your LFS) to the tank water and hope for the best, but a more thorough procedure will greatly improve the odds of a cure as well as prevent another outbreak.

Remove the fish to a QT. Perform a thorough tank cleaning, including vacuuming the substrate and water change. Add a dose of fungicide from your LFS. Remove the infected fish from the QT and place it on a soft towel soaked in saltwater. Cover the fish's eyes with a corner of the towel to reduce struggling. With a dry paper towel, carefully scrape the fungus from the fish. Wet a cotton swab with tincture of iodine and daub the infected area until covered. Let the solution sink in for a few seconds then return the fish to the tank.

A good tank maintenance program should keep the problem from reoccurring.

Does this seem likely or is it something else? TIA[/i]

 

[zenn]

The more posts i make and the more research i do, the better i'm figuring this sickness out. To me, this sickness is sounding more like Lympho. After reading up on lympho, i think we have a winner. Here's why i think this:

1. I recently redid the aquascape. It was probably pretty stressful on the clowns as i left them in there while i did it. Probalby should have moved them to qt.

2. Since lympho is a viral infection often caused by stress, i would argue that the fish were stressed from the reaquascapeing of the tank and maybe even injured themselves on rocks when trying to escape my construction project in there.

3. The growths are bigger and more concentrated than ich. They aren't as white either. The spots aren't falling off like ich will from time to time.

4. The fish are both acting healthy at this point. Another sign of lympho and not ich.

Just some things to think about. I'll still be waiting to hear what Steve-s thinks this is and what i should do.

 

[steve-s]

The bigger clown does have what appears to be a string of slime coming out of his underside many times. And i've noticed that it started when the other symptoms started.

This is the part that's concerning me. You have to watch that carefully as it is definately the sign of a parasite. If these are WC clowns, there's a high probability of Brooklynosis. Easily treated when caught early enough and in fact if WC, not uncommon to treat it prophylactically with a series of SW <<formalin baths>>. Read <<here>> and see what if anything rings true.

Lympho is indeed viral but stress is only one contributor. The environment and foods fed are just as important, if not moreso. You can read <<here>>. It also does not usually affect several areas of the same fish but rather one or two so I would lean towards true fungal if anything at this point which is very rare in SW. In either case, you are in no rush, neither will kill the fish quickly.

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

i think it may be possible that the two clowns have different illnesses. I was thinking they had the same thing cause obviously they're right next to eachother all the time. But they don't really share any of the same symptoms. So maybe the little clown has lympho and the bigger one has a fungal problem(which would explain his labored breathing but lack of lumps).

 

[steve-s]

I would see how the clowns respond to the continued hyposalinity, heavily vitamin fortified foods and good clean water. Wouldn't hurt to use garlic as well. Be very sure through the hypo process that pH and salinity are checked 2-3x each day.

If the problems progresses or new symptoms appear, please post back. The excess body slime is something to keep an eye on especially. If it doesn't return, I would still treat for possible Brooklynella just prior to placing back in the main tank once the hypo treatment is done. It is not unheard of for clowns to develope Brook later on. It's a fairly simple treatment that requires about a week.

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

do i need to use garlic if they are already eating well?

Also, how do i get my ph to go up in a hypo qt tank?

 

[steve-s]

do i need to use garlic if they are already eating well?

It can have some possitive effect against mild bacterial problems internally as well as being an overall good antioxidant. It's not a "must do" but I would if you could.

Also, how do i get my ph to go up in a hypo qt tank?

A good powdered reef buffer will help, ones containing borate especially.

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

The clowns have now been in qt for 3 weeks, and the growths are still on them.

Little Clown: He still has it the worst. While the growths/spots have seemed to move around some on his right side, he still has nothing on this left side.

Big Clown: He still has the one spot on his lip but it's slowly dissappearing i think.

Both clowns are acting healthy and eating good. they've been in hypo for three weeks and i've been feeding them flakes saturated in Zoecon([acronym="Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acid"]HUFA[/acronym]). The bigger clown has begun to taunt the littler one but i'm guessing that's just them figuring out their sexuality. Also, I did the surgery on them to try and remove the spots. It was difficult and i dont' know how effective it was.

So my question is this, since the growths/spots have never dissppeared the 3 weeks the little clown has been in qt, we can rule out ich right? So should i acclimate them back into the main tank so they can heal from the lympho they have or whatever else it may be? FYI, if i put them back into the tank, i'll have a heck of a time getting them back and i'll probably have to tear apart my reef again to put them back in qt....so i want to make sure i treat them now and get the problem solved.

 

[quarryshark]

Did you try the SW formalin bath? May want to give is a wirl first to be sure. It will take you a week to get the SG back up to normal (.001 increase per day) and would be a good opportunity to do so. Better safe than sorry.
Here is the link again to SW formalin bath.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html

I had a similar problem a while back and these baths are very effective if it is brooks.

 

[steve-s]

Agreed with QS but I would continue the hypo to it's end. They are already there and it can only yield possitive results. Besides, if an additional treatment is required, they are right where they need to be.

While the growths/spots have seemed to move around some on his right side, he still has nothing on this left side.

Big Clown: He still has the one spot on his lip but it's slowly dissappearing i think.

Can you post some new pics if possible of the affected areas. Lympho doesn't move, it gets get larger or smaller.

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

This is the best i could do. So you're recommending a formalin bath and finishing out my hypo treatment for one more week. Should i do any treatment for a possible fungus infection that we discussed earlier or do you think it could only be Brooks at this point? The reason i ask is the spots on the little clown havent' been explained yet because i read that spots are not a symptom of brooks. TIA

little clown on left (showing his left side...the unaffected side)

little clown on top (showing his right side, the infected side)

little clown on right

as you can see, the spots have gotten significantly smaller. Yet they are not gone. But to recap, the smaller clown never had excess slime....only the bigger one did. And these are tank raised clowns.

 

[steve-s]

It's rather hard to tell exactly what the "nodes" are. To be honest they could be lympho, bacterial or extremely rare, fungus.

I would lean more towards the lympho at this point given the slow rate of decrease without medicating but what I would suggest is the week before the fish are re -introduced, do the SW formalin baths and use Maracyn II for SW in the QT. It will help if bacterial, if lympho it won't do a thing. At the very least the Vitamin B in the antibiotic will be good for them.

For the record, tank raised fish are still WC

Cheers
Steve

 

[zenn]

It's been over a month now since they went into qt. I've got the formalin coming in the mail today and i'll give them a bath in it. The bigger clown seems to have healed completely and his color has really gotten darker and more lush! This is really great because it's pretty much the first time i've ever been successful in treating a sick fish The littler clown has also healed extensively and only one or two small little bumps remain on him. But he also appears a little more well colored. I plan on acclimating them back into the main tank either today or tommorrow. I haven't usued the MaracynII yet but it's coming in the mail with the formalin. Should i hold off on acclimating them back into the main so i can run them through a MaracynII treatment in the qt for a few days or is it safe to say the're ready to go back in the main afer a formalin bath later today?

 

[steve-s]

Should i hold off on acclimating them back into the main so i can run them through a MaracynII treatment in the qt for a few days or is it safe to say the're ready to go back in the main afer a formalin bath later today?

Given the (good news) on the reduction of the problem, I would hold off on the Maracyn II treatment for now. Leave the clowns in the hypo condition until it completely clears up and then move forward with the salinity increase, formalin treatments and then transfer back to the main. They are otherwise getting back to their optimal health by the sounds of it so I would continue on as you have until fully recovered.

Please be very sure you follow these instruction to the letter when you do the series of SW formalin baths (1 bath every third day for a total of 3 baths using 20 drops per gallon). Especially the part on aeration. It doesn't mention this but be sure the water clears before beginning the treatment. The formalin will make the water a bit cloudy so wait for that to disapate.

Cheers
Steve