Gill disease? Septicemia?

[Elen-C]

Hi - new to the site, but I've joined because I seem to have a big problem on my hands. In the past week I have had at least one fish die per day in my 20 gallon freshwater tropical tank. The tank has been in operation for the past 3 years, with no remarkable deaths or problems. I do a 20% water change about once a month, change charcoal filters with each water change, and change airstones about every other month.

I had a few cories, striped skirted tetras, Glo-Fish skirted tetras, neon tetras, a couple of "ghost fish", an algea eater, and recently added dannios (there are also a ton of snails in there, much to my chagrin...) Prior to the addition of the newest fish, about 10 days ago, one of my skirted tetras was not able to swim upright, and eventually died - looked like his gills were red. subsequently at least one fish has died the same way each day. The little Neons have really taken a hit, and when the ghost fish got sick, since he's virtually transparent, I was able to see that he had a considerable amount of bleeding up around his gills and "chest" area.

I read through the instructions in fish diagnosis charts, assumed this is either red gill disease or septicemia, did a 20% water change, and started treating the tank with Maracyn 2 a few days ago. I've tested the water for ammonia - no remarkable ammonia level, but I added some ammonia lock just in case. I've just removed yet another dead neon, and I'm wondering if I'm treating the tank correctly? Should I change the water again? Is treating with Maracyn 2 the right thing? If so, how long should it take to start having an affect? The first dose was four days ago. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jlk]

Welcome to AA!!! What are your exact numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & ph? What are you using to test (strips or liquid)?

With only one tiny water change a month since this tank was setup, it sounds like you have 'old tank syndrome'. There should be zero ammonia & nitrite and 20ppm or less nitrate. I am venturing to guess you have a ph that crashed along with high nitrates and likely ammonia at this point. Adding the new fish likely sent your tank over the edge and also possibly introduced disease. Your fish's symptoms sound like a water quality issue though rather disease. Some more info on your parameters will help!

 

[Elen-C]

Thanks for your response - I guess I'll need an additional testing kit. I only have a kit for testing ammonia (a liquid test) The test appeard to be somewhere between 0 and .25 ppm. The tank is indeed old - it was set up and running for 3 years in my current home, but it has been functioning for the past 10 years and has survived two major moves
(with the fish in it!) So can you tell me more about "old tank syndrome"?

 

[jlk]

You can do a search on here for more specific info but the basics are pretty simple. The lack of water changes allows nitrates to reach very toxic levels- water changes are the only thing that can remove nitrates (unless your tank is very heavily planted). The lack of water changes also results in vital buffers and minerals being depleted. The fish need the minerals to be healthy and function properly. The buffers are necessary to keep your ph stable and are necessary for your good bacteria to process ammonia. So, your ph will crash (ph swings are not good for fish either), your good bacteria will slow or stop processing ammonia altogether due to both the acidic environment and lack of buffers. Ammonia will then spike. Its results in a vicious cycle that will continue to spiral downward unless a tank stabilzed and returned to a healthy state.

The symptoms of true septicemia are pretty much the same as as posioning from toxins. An acidic environment will also contribute to these symptoms. Not that I am ruling out the possiblity of a bacterial issue here but I think getting your tank to a healthy state should be addressed first. Meds are ineffective if a tank is unhealthy. Please ask if you have questions!

 

[Elen-C]

Hmmmmm...so perhaps I should do an additional water change now (mid antibiotic cycle)? 20% ? 50% ? (I do have lots of live plants in the tank)

 

[jlk]

Do you have a decent lfs (not chain store) near you? I would atleast take a sample of both your tank water & your tap water to be tested for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & ph and see what the results read first before doing any water changes. If they have kh & gh tests, have these checked as well. Let us know how everything looks. If your tank is very out of sorts, doing large water changes may result in drastic swings in parameters which can be deadly for fish that have adapted to less than ideal conditions. The key will be smaller, more frequent wcs to gradually allow your fish to adjust as conditions change.

 

[Elen-C]

I just have a PetSmart in my area

 

[jlk]

Not my favorite store. They use strips which are rather inaccurate but it will atleast give you some ballpark numbers until you can get a decent test kit. Amazon right now has sale on the API fw master test kit- @$15-16 vs Petsmart at $34+.

 

[Elen-C]

ok - thanks!

 

[Elen-C]

Hi - I have some results from testing the water - the Ph was low, Ammonia higher, and nitrates pretty high, too. I immediately did a 50% water change - hope that was the right thing to do - will test again in a little while:
Ammonia = .5 ppm
Ph = 6.4
Nitrate = 80+ ppm
Nitrite = 0

Also added a small amount of Ph Up, some Tetra "easy Balance", Stress Coat and Stress Zyme (for the water change). I've continued the Marycin 2 treatment to help with any infections incurred during the out of control water situation. Will test water again this morning. Again - I hope I did the right thing last night - the fish were really struggling. They seem to be doing better this morning - no furious gill pumping like last night. One of the cories still looks kinda sick - bugt he has looked that way for a couple of days now. Any thoughts on moving forward?

 

[jlk]

Keep doing water changes. The fact that most of fish improved with just doing a water change tells you they are need of some healthy water. Keep us posted on how everyone is doing!

 

[Elen-C]

Hmmm - couple of remaining questions - current readings are:

Ammonia .25 (decreased since yesterday - used Ammo lock - I understand that the reading will still read positive after using?)
Ph 7.6 (significant change from yesterday)
Nitrite 0 (no change from yesterday)
Nitrate 80+ (no change from yesterday)

When you say "keep doing water changes" do you mean I should do another one today, or do you mean just keep changing the water regularly (20-25% change every 2 weeks? 3 weeks?)

I still seem to have a very high nitrate number (at least 80, maybe more) Anything I should do in the interim to get that number down?

Should I mess with Ph any more in the immediate future? (From what I've read, I shouldn't keep making drastic changes to the Ph?)

 

[jlk]

Make sure you check your tap water for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate. Whatever your tap reads for nitrates will be the lowest number you will be able to drop them. Your ph is not of any concern as long as it stays reasonably stable. I would work on daily water changes until you are able to bring your nitrates under control. A 50% wc should cut your nitrate number in half if you have no nitrates in your tap. Once they are under control, you can reduce your water changes to 50% once a week. Water changes are really the only way to reduce high nitrate levels.

In respect to amm-lock, it will temporarily (@24-48hrs) convert toxic ammonia/NH3 to ammonium/NH4 up to 1ppm (some products, its 2ppm). The ammonia test reads total ammonia, both NH3 & NH4 combined. So, when you use amm-lock you will still see an ammonia reading but the ammonia will be in the form of ammonium. Amm-lock type products dont actually remove ammonia but just convert it to a less toxic form temporarily. Hope this helps!

 

[Elen-C]

Hi - I thought things were looking up, since I've been diligantly changing the water every day, and testing the water - things seemed to be slowly getting into check. But this morning one of my cories was dead (was alive last night but couldn't swim upright - swimming upside down - horrible) and also this morning one of my neons was exhibiting the same behavior. I euthanized it, as the other fish were starting to pick at it.

So demoralized at this point. Not sure what else I can do. The other fish appear to be ok - maybe the cory and neon were already sick and just didn't make it through this process.

 

[jlk]

I am so sorry to hear this

Your doing a great job of getting things under control & getting your tank healthy so keep up the good work!