HELP! 3 inactive fancy goldfigh

[fancygoldfish]

I've had my 3 small fancy goldfish for about 6 months and a couple months ago i moved them from a 5g tank to a 10g..ever since then I've been having problems. First my bubble eyed fish's eye got injured during the move and i believe it developed cloudy eye from that..i just did more frequent water changes and added salt, stress zyme, and goldfish water renewal and it cleared up...but it came back a few weeks later, i did the same thing as the first time and its been gone ever since.
Now the past few days or so that same fish has been just hanging out on the bottom, it will swim when it time to eat but otherwise its inactive...and i noticed the other 2 fishes fins were eroding and looked frayed..Now the 3rd fish has blood streaks in the fin and also some slight erosion. I did some research online and came 2 the conclusion that they have finrot..so i went 2 my local pet store and they tested the tank water and said it looked fine just needed 2 do a slight water change (which was due.) They also told me 2 use Lifeguard All-in-one Treatment to treat the finrot.
So I came home did a water change (about 40%) added a little salt (because 1 of the fish seemed a little stressed from the water change and was also laying on the gravel) then added the Lifeguard tablets. Now all three are inactive on the bottom and i dont know whats going on. I called the pet store they said 2 add stress zyme and the water renewal which i did but still no change. I don't know if this is from the tablets and i should stop using them or if its normal.
I usually do water changes weekly (2 weeks would be the longest i'd let it go) and i usually add salt, stress zyme, and water renewal. Every time i've taken the water in 2 b tested they say the levels are good. The temp is naturally at about 78 degrees F so i here and there i add a bottle of ice 2 try and cool the tank down ( i dont know if maybe this is not good for them and is causing a problem)
If anyone can give me some advice on what i should do or if i should discontinue the use of the Lifeguard i'd really appreciate it...My daughter loves the fish and is just learning 3 say their names, i'd hate 2 lose one!
Thank you

 

[dkpate]

Don't mess with the temp, I just read that they can tolerate temps between 40-80*. I will post a good article, and make sure you read about the nitrogen cycle. With that many fancys in a small tank, the blood streaks are probably from ammonia, and the cloudy eye is probably from dirty water. They will be lethargic if the water conditions are not good.
When the pet store tested the water, did they use strips? Strips are no good, and if you can get the API Master Freshwater liquid test kit, that would be much more accurate, and you can do it at home. Right now you can get them online from Walmart for $18, and like $.97 shipping.

Goldfish, Fancy Goldfish - Carassius auratus

 

[fancygoldfish]

Oh ok ill look into getting that so i can test the water at home. Thanks for your help!
Do you think its ok to continue the lifeguard treatment if they are still inactive at the bottom? They did swim around for a little bit this morning when they ate and a little after..but for the most part they have just stayed on the bottom.

 

[dkpate]

The fin rot treatment is not needed IMO, just clean water. Clean water is always the best medicine! I suspect that they are sluggish because of the water conditions, and not the fin rot.
You will need to do partial water changes every day to get the ammonia and nitrite down. I am 99% sure that is what your problems are, and since you have fish, the pwc's are the only way to get them down.
When you have 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and between 10 and 40ppm of nitrate, you will have completed your cycle, and your fish will be happy! After the cycle is done, you can just do one pwc a week of 25-50%.
Try changing some of the water right now and see if they perk up. If it has been a while since you changed some of the water, do a small change to start with so you don't cause a huge swing in pH, and shock them.

 

[FastFly67]

there's no point in cycling a tank that small with goldies. there will never be enough beneficial bacteria to handle a bioload that large. goldies are incredibly "dirty" fish. they've probably already become stunted being in the 5 and now the 10. those goldies should be in a minimum of about a 55g tank.
sorry to sound harsh but goldies are probably THE most unresearched common fish in the hobby

 

[dkpate]

Except if they are fancy's like he says, they don't get as big as the other goldies.

Size : Usually 3 to 5 inches (8 - 13 cm), but can get bigger

 

[FastFly67]

Except if they are fancy's like he says, they don't get as big as the other goldies.

Size : Usually 3 to 5 inches (8 - 13 cm), but can get bigger

but if you research you'll find most sites recommend for fancies between 20-30 gallons for the first and 10 for each additional

 

[jsoong]

1. Fancies are smaller than commons, but still a big fish compared to tropicals <they have thick bodies & weight a lot more.>. So for 3 fancies a minimal of 40 gal is needed at maturity. <you can keep them in a ten if they are small - 1/2" or so ... but expect to move to bigger tank within a year.>

2. You can cycle in small tank even with goldfish .... you just need to do an incredible amount of large pwc's (twice or more a day!) ....

3. Fancy goldfish actually are sub-tropical, so temp of 78 is actually ideal for them. <I keep mine at 75 with a heater ... > You do need good air exchange (ie lots of water surface movement) at higher temps, esp. in small tank with the small surface areas. <The range of 40-80 is for commons .... fancies don't do well in temp under 70.>

4. As I stated in your other thread ... clean water is the key!!! Lots of pwc's. When cycling with goldfish in small setups, a general rule of thumb is to do a total of 100% change daily, but you do need your own test kit to see how things are going.

 

[fancygoldfish]

Thanks for the replies they've been very helpful!

 

[dkpate]

Glad to hear it!

 

[BeavisMom62]

there's no point in cycling a tank that small with goldies. there will never be enough beneficial bacteria to handle a bioload that large. goldies are incredibly "dirty" fish. they've probably already become stunted being in the 5 and now the 10. those goldies should be in a minimum of about a 55g tank.
sorry to sound harsh but goldies are probably THE most unresearched common fish in the hobby

ITA, FF! OP, you really should look into getting a larger tank ASAP and also an API master test kit. As someone else said, goldies need optimally 20 gal for the first fish and 10 gal for each additional fish. They are messy and get large and need room to swim around. Until you can get a large tank, or rehome the fish, continue with frequent large water changes, making sure you use Prime to dechlor the new water in the tank.

I mistakenly bought that Lifeguard before, but never used it. (man that stuff is expensive, especially if you have a large tank!). If you read the small print it says that it is "a broad-spectrum, non-antibiotic agent used to treat the clinical signs of disease". Active ingredient (anyone know what this even is??) is "1-Chloro-2.2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone"!! Sounds to me like it might be an anti-fungal but I'm not sure. Like someone else said, I would stop using it and just provide good clean water for now. I've never looked it up. I think I will and I"ll let you know what I find.

 

[BeavisMom62]

Huh. It might be more effective than I previously thought, but still not sure of how effective it would be with fish. I found a research article about it, which is WAAAY out of my league, but in summary it says:

"it has considerable potential as general purpose disinfectants. Efficient at sterilizing hard surfaces (stainless steel) and could be useful for a variety of household and medical disinfection applications." It appears that it is used as a disinfectant in swimming pools and disinfecting water by "inactivating several species of bacteria and algae". Here is the link: Novel N-halamine disinfectant compounds - Biotechnology Progress (ACS Publications and Am. Inst. of Chem. Engineers)

 

[jsoong]

That was exemplary research before posting, BeavisMom! Kudos to you.

Halamines are not nearly that mysterious .... We all know of Chloramines used in our water supply as disinfectant. That is a form of halomines. <Chloramines contains chlorine, other halomines may have other halogens - bromine, fluorine, etc.>

Jungle's formula identifies LifeGuard as a chloramine. That is why the website also say that you can detoxify LifeGuard with dechlor. <Whether you should pay good money for chloramines is a point worth debating ... you can get the same effect by not using dechlor (or reducing the dose) in your tap water ... although you would have more control over the dose with LifeGuard.>

I am not convinced that chloramines are great fish treatment. First, they may kill your bio-filter, making things worse. Second, to be effective, it has to get through the fish's slime coat.

I still go by clean water as first line of defense in most cases, perhaps adding salt to treat surface infections. <For internal infections, I use medicated foods.>

 

[fancygoldfish]

Thanks for the info! I stopped giving then the lifeguard a few days ago and have continued 2 do the large water changes and they have been swiming around again for the past couple days! I hope this means they are getting better...their tails still haven't turned black or started to grow back so I'm not quite sure if it'll just get better on its own or stay like this or what...but overall they seem to be doing better

 

[dkpate]

They should not turn black, it should be clear. Also, you will need new carbon in the filter to remove the meds. Glad they are doing better.

 

[jsoong]

They should not turn black, it should be clear. Also, you will need new carbon in the filter to remove the meds. Glad they are doing better.

No need for carbon to remove LifeGuard .... It is a chloramines & can be neutralized with regular dechlorinator (see Jungle's web page). Plus you are doing all the big pwc ... it is likely gone by now.

Ammonia burns often gets a bit of a black edge as it heals (at least in goldies). You don't necessarily see it as it is a very thin line in fins.

As long as the fish are looking better, I'd continue with the pwc's until the tank is cycled. The only thing I might add is a bit of aquarium salt, it helps with fin rot & other injuries. BTW - You would have to test the water to see when you can slow down on the water changes! <When you have no ammonia or nitrites & a rising nitrate level.>