Oranda eating very little, not opening mouth

[li23]

• Red cap oranda, about three inches long
• I've had her for four months
• Tank size: 9 US gallons
• Filter: This SmallWorld filter
• Ammonia levels: 0
• Other water parameters unknown

Hi. I've been indecisive about whether to post this, because in terms of behavour and appearance, my redcap oranda Tiny seems to be in perfect health. I've had her for about four months now, and for the first few of months, she would eat like all goldfish do; munching her food up with gusto. However, about six weeks ago her eating habits changed. She now eats much less food (like, minute amounts).

While she is still interested in food and swims towards it and forages around in it, she doesn't visibly open her mouth and suck it in like she used to. I still feed her every day or every other day (regularly with flakes, occasionally with bloodworm gel food and little bits of pea, same diet as always), and in the evening I scoop out whatever she hasn't eaten.

I would be more worried, but I've dealt with poorly fish before, and she really isn't exhibiting any negative symptoms at all. Crucially, I still see her poop, but it's no way near as often as it used to be at all - about once a week, max. This not-eating-much thing has been going on for six weeks now, so I know she must be getting some sustenance in (otherwise she would have deteriorated massively or passed away). She appears to be in perfect health. But I think it's time I ask for some advice, because I don't want her to fall ill in future.

My first thought was that she must have something stuck in her mouth, even though I don't use gravel or even sand in her tank - only large pebbles and ground rocks for this exact reason. It doesn't look like she has anything in her mouth (it's not swollen or misshapen at all), but she also doesn't open her mouth at all like she used to. I read online ages ago that it was a good idea to lift a fish from the water momentarily to take a proper look in their mouth (and perhaps even shock them into spitting it out), and I did this about ten days into her six-week period of not eating much, and I couldn't see anything, and she didn't spit anything out.

In terms of what I've already done to treat her: in the last six weeks, she has had a couple of salt baths. About a week into her reduced appetite, I put her on a course of medicine for parasites and fungal/bacterial infections called Paraguard by Seachem. I put it in the tank every day for about eleven days, and she didn't seem phased at all, but it didn't alter her eating habits either. Since she wasn't getting any better or worse, I stopped the medicine. A couple of weeks later, I tried the same medicine again in 'dip' form, and again, it didn't stress her at all, but it also didn't improve her eating. I've also done a big tank clean in the last six weeks (at a time when she wasn't on any medication) and I treated the water with Interpet General Tonic, like I always do after larger water changes. It never bothers her.

Does anyone have any idea what is going on? It'd break my heart if she fell ill, because she's such a lovely little fish. I've been torn between not wanting to over-treat her and stress her out (since she seems very happy as she is), and wanting her to get her old appetite back, since eating as little as she can't be good for her and will surely stunt her growth eventually.

 

[Oceangirl]

Her tank is WAY TOO SMALL. Gold fish can get to be like 8+ inches! ALso how much water do you change weekly? With a tank that small 50% daily is needed!

Exotic Goldfish - Oranda Goldfish

the record holding oranda is 15 inches! please get him into a 20gallon or more tank right away!

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Welcome to AA!
First thing I'm going to get you to do is get her water tested and then post the results here.
How often and how much of her water do you change? Also what type of filtration do you have? We need to rule out any problems with the water. How big is Tiny?

 

[li23]

Yep, I'm aware that the tank is too small. It has always been my intention to buy a larger tank in the near future when I can afford to, however that's not an option right now. I know everyone has different opinions on this, but I've been told by aquarists in the past that 10US gallons per fish is the appropriate amount of room.

I do a third water change about one or twice a week. I may be wrong, but I'd consider a 50% water change every day as unnecessarily stressful for her (considering she never shows any signs of oxygen deprivation at all), and I thought water changes that large and that regularly would interfere with the biological filtration of the tank?

I have listed the type of filter and Tiny's size at the beginning of my post. She's only about three inches long, as she is still very young.

Her ammonia levels are always 0 (I have a drop testing kit), but I don't know my water's pH levels. I could buy a kit if you think it's necessary? Is loss of appetite/being unable to fully open their mouths a symptom of bad pH levels?

 

[Pam is here]

You can take a sample of your water to a pet store that sells fish. Around here they test it for nothing. Good luck with tiny. Keep us posted

 

[li23]

The thing is, I don't really have a local fish store. The only one nearby is in the next town over, this tiny little pet store, and all of their fish look like they're about to drop dead in an hour. They also have a koi in a tank about half the size of Tiny's - it's horrible there. I could go and ask, but I really doubt they ever test their water. I'm more than happy to buy another testing kit online though.

 

[Candiceg]

I would get an API test kit. I would also look on Craigslist for a new tank when you can. Much cheaper. I have gotten some serious deals and there's always someone selling them. The reason people are saying to do large water changes is because an aquarium is essentially a toilet bowl. The BB lives in you filter mostly so a large water change won't hurt your cycle and the more toxins you remove the healthier Tiny will be. Even though she's small goldfish are very large waste producers. I have 2 four in fancies in 36 g and i still do 50% water changes. That's great that your ammonia is 0 but you don't know your other levels. Also I never change my filter media and I run double the filtration that my tank requires.

 

[Candiceg]

Also can u post a picture or video of Tinys mouth. Are you saying it never opens at all?

 

[jlk]

Letting us know all your water numbers will help to rule out water quality issues which can affect a fish's appetite. What is your normal water change schedule? A pic as well as how big she is will help, too. Also, did you buy her from a regualr lfs?

I would start by changing her diet to see if she has more interest in other foods. Flakes are the worst thing for fancy goldfish. A quality sinking goldfish pellet such as Hikari Saki or Lionhead, NLS or ProGold in addition to daily veggies and some quality fresh proteins (human grade shrimp/fish, bloodworms, earthworms, brine shrimp, etc) may help to entice her to eat more.

 

[Oceangirl]

Perhaps some anacharis, they love eating plants, She may be bloat or a picky eater

 

[li23]

She's never liked her pellets even when she ate much more (plus she probably can't open her mouth enough to eat one?), although she does have bloodworms and peas which she likes. I'll take her off the flakes completely for a while and just try her with these two

I'll definitely look into getting some anacharis - I was thinking about java moss too, is that a good idea?

I do a third water change once or twice a week, and I bought her from a Pets at Home (a branch which I really like - sadly it's nowhere near where I live now).

As for photos or videos of her/her mouth; I'm not sure I'd be able to get one which was good enough to be any use. I tried for ages to get a photo the other day, but none were any good. Here and here are probably the best ones. I know it sounds crazy odd, but I really don't think she does open her mouth at all - not visibly. But I can't emphasize enough how normal and healthy the rest of her behaviour is. I keep a really close eye on her, and nothing has changed. She doesn't seem remotely distressed by it, whatever is up with her.

Thank you for all for responding, by the way It means a lot that people are helping out

 

[li23]

I'll order an API pH kit tomorrow and post the results

Also, I just observed her for a while to try and get a good look at her mouth. She moves her little bottom jaw up and down slightly, but her lips never open fully :/

I suppose if her mouth never returns to normal, then I will just have to buy her the most highly nutritious foods I can get to minimize the damage from only eating small amounts at a time.

 

[jlk]

Ill tell you what I suspect has happened here (assuming there are no water quality issues affecting her appetite). When fry & juvenile goldfish are exposed to flukes that go untreated, it causes deformities of the mouth which are not obvious until a fish starts to mature. I would do another full course of treatment with Paraguard just to be sure there is no further risk. Unfortunately, there is no cure for this and feeding the best diet you can is the best you can do for her to make sure she is getting enough nutrition.

 

[Candiceg]

Very strange wish I knew what it looked like. Jlk is the best goldfish person on here. I do whatever she tells me lol. She has gotten me out of some jams. Maybe you could try some cooked broccoli florets and she if she can graze on it a little.

 

[jlk]

What you should consider trying is either making your own homemade gel food or purchasing a gelfood (brands Repashy or Mazuri). Its soft & she will be able to suck it into her mouth without having to open it very much.

Gel Food Recipes

 

[li23]

photos attatched

Hi!


Just a quick update - Tiny is still thriving, despite her mouth deformity, and the fact that it's now been over nine weeks since I saw her eat the normal 'suck and chew' way. (Jlk, I did some research after reading your reply and I reckon you're right, that a mouth deformity is what's wrong with her.)

I feed her on bloodworm gel food, and I've just started crushing flakes in water to produce a kind of liquid food that is recommended for feeding fry. She seems to really enjoy this, and swims around in it joyously, so I presume she can suck in the little particles through what little movement/opening her mouth does have. I'm also going to get some moss for her tank tomorrow, because she is a slow eater and might like to graze on it.

I managed to take some much better photos of her (although they're still not amazing). In the second photo, you can just about see her mouth - I think it's the bottom jaw/lip where the issue lies. It makes her look all grumpy! (here is a bigger version of the second photo)


She is definitely not as chubby/rounded as I really wish she was, but I think she still looks pretty healthy for a fish who hasn't visibly eaten in nearly ten weeks? Any thoughts?

 

[jlk]

Do your best to make sure shes getting sufficient protein & nutrients! She doesnt look like shes 'starving' so she must be getting something. You may actually want to consider switching her to a food made specifically for fry to ensure shes getting enough nutrition with what little she eats. Fry formulas are usually higher in protein & nutrients than regular fish food. Keep up the good work with your special needs fish!