Possible Swim Bladder Problem? (Bubble Eye)

[mrsmills]

1~What type of fish is afflicted?

The fish afflicted a bubble eye gold fish, was in generally good health until last week when began to appear listless and would float basically motionless at top of tank or sit under aquarium decorations. Seems to float to surface involuntarily. Generally very active, feeds frequently and well on mixed diet. Has eaten and seemingly enjoyed peas. No food for 20 hours. Condition improved last week when food withdrawn from aquarium now worse than ever, almost totally unreactive and appears very bloated. Suspect infection of swim bladder. Appears very unhappy. Although has bursts of high activity and seemingly normal behaviour. Continues to produce white, thread like excretions.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

pH 6.8
Temp 64.6F (assuming same as air temperature)
NO3 25
NO2 5

Currently cycling tank in terms of around 30% per day but values remain substantially unchanged.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

Tank has now been set up 6 weeks, 3 weeks unpopulated but not nitrogen cycled, 3 weeks with fish. Has a capacity of 11 gallons (US)

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

Interpet PF Mini flow rate 60 litres/hour

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?

2 orandas, a black moore and the bubble eye. All are around one inch in length, the black moore 1.5.

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel?

Currently trying to stabilise NO2/NO3 levels so changing 25-30% per day treated tap water left to stand for 2 hours to equilibrate with room/tank temperature. Gravel not yet vacuumed.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?

Fish has been in aquarium for just over 3 weeks. Was acclimatised by originally leaving in bag, floated in tank for 30 mins before slowly mixing water in bag with aquarium water and finally releasing into darkened tank after 45 minutes. Initially no problems at all.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

No.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?

Originally standard flake food, changed to crushed peas when symptoms appeared and having read negative comments in relation to food of that type. Have been watching them eat closely to ensure that he is getting his fair share.

Other fish seem very happy and active and tank is developing nicely. Just the bubble eye that is not. I was unaware of how un-natural they are and would not have purchased one had I been aware but don't want to lose this one.

I've also noticed today that the same fish has two tiny white spots on his head. Ich perhaps?

 

[jsoong]

NO2 of 5 ???
I take that your tank is still cycling? If so, what is NH3 reading?

First thing to do with sick fish & water parameter out of wack is change the water. I like to keep NO2 under 0.5 during fishie cycling. Certainly yoou will need to do as much water change as needed (prob daily large change of 50%+) to keep NO2 under 1 until tank is cycled. I'd vacuum the gravel ... with your numbers, you have plenty of nitrogenous waste to keep the cycle going. Also, add a little aquarium salt (at 0.05% = 20g or about 1 tablespoon for your 11 gal tank), this protects fish from nitrite poisioning.

A 11 gal tank is waay too small for 4 golds. You will be OK for a while at 1" each, but within a year or so, you will need a larger tank if you want to keep all 4 (30 gal min, 50+ better). Meanwhile, you will need to do lots of water change to manage the water parameters ... prob twice a week pwc after cycling is complete <whatever is needed to keep NO3 under 10 or 20>.

Fancies like to be kept warmer than 65F. They get constipated & end up with swim bladder problems. I would suggest a heater to keep water temp at 75F. To treat established swim bladder problem, some would crank the temp up to low 80's for a couple weeks.

You may consider a MgSO4 (Epsom salt) bath for this fish. <1/4 teaspoon per gal for a few days .... some advocate 1 teaspoon per gal for 1/2 hr or so for more immediate effect, or a 0.3% NaCl dip as a purgative ... would not suggest the stronger & more risky measures unless you are experinced in salt dipping goldies.>

In your case, the white poop also suggests an internal infection. This is likely secondary to the stress of cycling with fish. You may consider feeding anti-biotic food, but only after you get the tank parameters under control.

 

[mrsmills]

Given nitrate/nitrite levels presume it is still cycling, however, despite water changes of 30-50% per day last week the levels remains substantially unchanged, however I take on board your point regarding the gravel. It hasn't been vacuumed so this may explain high levels. I don't have equipment to measure ammonia levels.

Tank is currently unheated so this is certainly something to consider.

To clarify, I presume I need to isolate the fish before treating with magnesium sulphate or sodium chloride? Don't currently have an other tank in which to do this so ideally need some way to treat the fish in situ with the other fish present.

 

[jsoong]

Your high levels are not too surprising given the high bio-load of 4 golds. At this point, the only thing to do is to up your water change. As long as water parameters (temp, etc) is identical to the tank, it is safe to do large water changes. I have done 100% changes in an emergency (ie move the fish to new water). To go from NO2 of 5 to 1 you would need an 80% pwc.

As for salt bath or dips, you don't really need another tank. I usually treat in a clean (fish use only) bucket or tub. I use a shallow 20 liter tub with an airstone & no filter <shallow so larger surface area for gas exchange>. A small gold will do fine in that for up to 24 hrs. For multiday treatment, you'd need to change out 100% of the water each day (since the tub is not filtered or cycled). This is basically the Chinese tub-to-tub method advocated by JoAnn in PureGold web-site.

TREATMENT OF GOLDFISH AND KOI

 

[mrsmills]

Update - transferred bubble eye to a make shift quarantine tank, effectively a translucent plastic tub with large area for good o2 exchange and air pump. He has showed sporadic attempts to swim but still looked very unhappy. His gills were also swollen.

The water in the box was been changed with fish tank water (tank having had 80% PWC 3 hours previous). I have now also purchased a heater for the tank which was warming things up. Unfortunately his condition deteriorated, his gills became more inflamed and he died a little while ago. I feel very guilty indeed and frustrated that when I bought him not a word was said about how difficult he might be to care for.

 

[jsoong]

Sorry to hear that the bubble eye did not made it. It is sad that there are lots of misconceptions out ther regarding goldfish. Chief amoung that: thery can live in a bowl and are hardy for cycling.

To keep goldies healthy acutally require a bit of work, esp. in a small setup. <They are much easier to care for in a 2-300 gal pond ....> Also, not all golds are hardy. Most of the fancies are actually rather sensitive to water conditions (eg Orandas & Ranchus <the bubble eye is a breed of Ranchu>). The only reason people use golds to cycle a tank is because they are cheap and expendable, even the hardier varieties (eg self metallic fantail) will have a fair chance of dying during the process .... thus you will find lots of advocate of fishless cycling in this forum.

To complete your tank cycling with the least stress to your remaining fish, I would suggest lots of water changes to keep your levels low (NH3 less than 1, NO2 less than 0.5). You may have another few weeks to go before the cycle is setablished. My suggested levels may be lower than some would say & might prolong the cycle a bit, but your orandas are not tolerant of poor water & keeping really low levels of nitrogenous compounds will give them a better chance.

Also, even after the end of the cycling process, keep an eye out for trouble. Goldies that had been through stress often get secondary infections a few weeks down the road (ich being most common). You would want to get on top of things at the first sign of trouble.

 

[mrsmills]

Thanks for the advice, unfortunately I was wholly ignorant of the cycling process when I bought the fish, it was never intended just to use them to cycle the tank and they were never seen expendable. Unfortunately, the black moore now seems to have like a white fluff just on his back below the dorsal fin. He seems largely unaware of this or at least not bothered by it, although it looks to me a like a fungal infection?

 

[Zagz]

Sorry for the loss of your bubble eye. Is there any chance you can take a pic of your black moor? If it is a white fluff it is likely a fungus of bacterial nature. You will as stated need to keep up on extra water changes. You could try some jungle's fungus elliminator to help with the healing process. Make sure there is no active carbon in your filter.

Does the black moor have whitish poop as well or was it just the bubble eye? I am concerned that in such a small tank if there were parasites involved the other fish are succeptible as well.

 

[jsoong]

Unfortunately, goldies under stress from bad water can suffer from lots of opportunistic infections. The first line of treatment is always fresh clean water. Medications are secondary.

The description may be fungus or finrot. Here are some links with pics for you to compare with:
GP :: View topic - DISEASE FACTFILES
GP :: View topic - DISEASE FACTFILES

Actually, at this point, exact diagnosis is not that important. Clean water is what is needed. <BTW, where is your cycling heading? any new numbers on the tank?> Although for surface fungus or finrot, a 0.3% salt bath is helpful and worth trying.

If any fish show signs of internal infections (eg redness at base of fins, white poop, certain behaviour changes), then treatment with medicated food is suggested, but AFTER you get the water parameters in order.

 

[marchmaxima]

I'm just piping in to affirm what jsoong has said. Knowing all your water parameters are everything when cycling the tank using fish. I'm concerned that if you are unable to get all your water parameters under control, you will lose more of your fish.

It is really important you get an ammonia testing kit. You already have the other testing kits you need. You also need to do as many water changes as necessary to keep the ammonia and nitrite under 1ppm (and preferably under 0.5).

Can you also please test your tap water for ammonia & nitrite? I wonder if you have high levels of this coming out of the tap.

Lastly, I'm sorry to hear about your loss. And don't beat yourself up. You have done the right thing by asking for help here.