Ryukin Goldfish Swim Bladder Issues

[Hyper27]

Hi all,

I have a broadtail Ryukin that has been having swim bladder issues for the past 2 months now. It isn't a standard SBD issue though. Below is some background:

- He didn't have issues when he was a juvenile ('22 summer), no bad habits gulping at surface either and never had any buoyancy issues

- I groomed him summer to fall 2022 and he grew roughly 1.5 inches. At times, I did notice that he had some weird swimming habits, but no issues with floating or sinking through this entire phase. Seemed like general clumsy fancy goldfish swimming.

- In October when I was slowing down the grooming process, I reduced the heater setting from 80 -> 78 (no issues). Kept it like that for around 2 weeks or so. Then 78 -> 76. I was still feeding high protein food in the taper down. One day after reducing the temperature to 76, I noticed he was floating upside down in the tank (no other fish in my 2 tanks of ryukin had this issue).

- I was alarmed by this and separated him into a hospital tank. I acclimated him to a higher temperature of 80 again and fasted for 3 days. Then I fed only peas and spinach for a week. I also gave him epsom salt baths each day at 1 tbsp per gallon. His hospital tank was also dosed at 1/4 tbsp of epsom salt for 10 gallons.While he was no longer upside down, he was still at the top.

- I tried a few rounds of prazi, kanaplex, and metroplex. Nothing. I will admit it wasn't a full dosing schedule. I just wanted to see if these medications would show any signs of improvement and then pursue further from there.

- He started to develop some redness on his body due to exposure to the surface, so I bought this breeding net cube that people use to separate fish within a tank. I would put him in it to prevent surface exposure. What I found out was that he would actually stop floating after a few hours. In fact, he would stay at the bottom as if he had negative buoyancy at that point. When I would release him, he would be unable to swim properly and would topple over. It seems that he was gulping air at the surface which would cause him to float. It appears he has negative or wonky buoyancy otherwise.

- This leads me to believe that perhaps that something happened during the grooming slow-down process that messed with his swim bladder's function or he got injured somehow that I didn't see.

- For additional detail, I also have 9 other ryukin that don't have the same issues. Just 2 that are a bit more susceptible to floating if I feed a bit too much.

- Tank parameters 0 NH3, 0 NO2-, and less than 40 ppm NO3- (from API test kit)


I'm at a loss for what to do now, it's been around 2 months and he's been living not the best life. But, he still has a lot of rigor and eats well. I've been taking care of goldfish for a few years now and have seen swim bladder issues due to digestive issues, but nothing like this. Anyone have any clue as to what this is or what I should do?

 

[Colin_T]

- I tried a few rounds of prazi, kanaplex, and metroplex. Nothing. I will admit it wasn't a full dosing schedule. I just wanted to see if these medications would show any signs of improvement and then pursue further from there.


- For additional detail, I also have 9 other ryukin that don't have the same issues. Just 2 that are a bit more susceptible to floating if I feed a bit too much.

Let me guess, you're in America. I will scold you first and then tell you what the most likely cause is. Then you can beat yourself up after.

Do not add chemicals to aquariums unless you know what the problem is. Then use the correct medication for the disease.

Antibiotics like Kanamycin (Kanaplex) and Metronidazole (Metroplex) should only be used on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal treatments. Improper use and mis-use (using them for one or two days on an undiagnosed problem is mis-use) of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill birds, fish, reptiles, animals and people, every day.

The fish does not have a bacterial infection and did not need antibiotics.

People in countries where antibiotics are freely available should really try to find out what the problem is before reaching for the nearest pills. You aren't helping the fish or anyone else, but you are increasing the chance of your fish and possibly even you, developing a drug resistant bacterial infection that might not be treatable.

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Moving fish that have possible internal issues can make the problem worse. If they have an internal issue and you lift the fish out of the water, the weight of the fish is no longer being taken by the buoyancy in the water and is put directly on the internal organs. If you do this several times a day to give the fish an Epsom salts bath, you can cause some serious injuries if the fish already has problems.

If you have to move a potentially sick fish with internal injuries, carefully catch it in a net but keep it in the water. Then scoop the fish up in the net, in a container of aquarium water. Move the fish to the new location and submerge the container and let the fish swim out.

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Goldfish can live in cold or warm water. Having cooler water will not cause this sort of issue. In fact goldfish should be given a few months of cool water every year.

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You mention a high protein diet. Goldfish need at least half of their diet to be plant based. They do best on a low protein diet or at least a diet that contains lots of plant matter and a bit of prawn, fish, daphnia, brineshrimp, mozzie larvae, etc.

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Short bodied goldfish like fantails, ryukins, orandas, black moors all have short squished up bodies. Their body is shorted than their wild counterparts but they still have the same length intestine and same size internal organs. This makes them more likely to develop internal problems like floating after they have been fed. And dry foods are the most common cause of goldfish floating around aquariums, besides being dead and floating on the surface.

Swim bladder problems are uncommon in fish. If a fish floats to the surface when it stops swimming, it might be a swim bladder problem but is more likely to be air trapped in the fish's intestine. To test whether it's air, you simply stop feeding the fish dry food for a week and feed them live or frozen foods instead. If the fish swim normally after a few days without dry food, then the problem is air in the intestine. This problem is incredibly common with fancy short bodied goldfish that get fed flake or pellet foods.

If a fish sinks when it stops swimming, that is normally a swim bladder problem and there is no cure. However, some fish eat gravel and it can cause them to sink when they stop swimming. Sometimes the gravel gets passed out the back end and the fish swims normally afterwards, other times it doesn't get passed out and the fish eventually dies.

If you feed dry food to your fish, I would suggest not using it for a week and feed the fish on frozen and or live foods and see if it helps. If it does fix the problem, then reduce the amount of dry food you use and add more frozen and live foods to their diet. And make sure they get plenty of plant matter, preferably from aquatic plants and algae, because they digest them better than terrestrial plants.

If you don't feed dry food, then it could be a genetic defect on those 2 fish. They are heavily inbred and deformed and genetic defects are common in those fish. There's no cure for a genetic defect.

 

[Hyper27]

Let me guess, you're in America. I will scold you first and then tell you what the most likely cause is. Then you can beat yourself up after.

Do not add chemicals to aquariums unless you know what the problem is. Then use the correct medication for the disease.

Antibiotics like Kanamycin (Kanaplex) and Metronidazole (Metroplex) should only be used on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal treatments. Improper use and mis-use (using them for one or two days on an undiagnosed problem is mis-use) of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill birds, fish, reptiles, animals and people, every day.

The fish does not have a bacterial infection and did not need antibiotics.

People in countries where antibiotics are freely available should really try to find out what the problem is before reaching for the nearest pills. You aren't helping the fish or anyone else, but you are increasing the chance of your fish and possibly even you, developing a drug resistant bacterial infection that might not be treatable.

Yep, I agree with the above. I only considered this after nothing was working even when I wasn't feeding for days. I do get the logic behind the abuse of antibiotics and I try not to use them unless I am more confident.

But how are you so confident that this is not a bacterial infection? I get that it would've probably had some worsened conditions by now, but could it not still be possible if the problem that came all the sudden still persists?

Moving fish that have possible internal issues can make the problem worse. If they have an internal issue and you lift the fish out of the water, the weight of the fish is no longer being taken by the buoyancy in the water and is put directly on the internal organs. If you do this several times a day to give the fish an Epsom salts bath, you can cause some serious injuries if the fish already has problems.

If you have to move a potentially sick fish with internal injuries, carefully catch it in a net but keep it in the water. Then scoop the fish up in the net, in a container of aquarium water. Move the fish to the new location and submerge the container and let the fish swim out.

This is good to know, will keep this in mind.

Goldfish can live in cold or warm water. Having cooler water will not cause this sort of issue. In fact goldfish should be given a few months of cool water every year.

Yep, agreed. I know goldfish can survive winters and summers outdoors. The point to include the temperature was in case fluctuations could have been some reason for the swim bladder issue. I was reading online that this could be the case. Still doesn't make the most sense since my temperature decrease was gradual, but just a detail I thought to consider.

Short bodied goldfish like fantails, ryukins, orandas, black moors all have short squished up bodies. Their body is shorted than their wild counterparts but they still have the same length intestine and same size internal organs. This makes them more likely to develop internal problems like floating after they have been fed. And dry foods are the most common cause of goldfish floating around aquariums, besides being dead and floating on the surface.

Swim bladder problems are uncommon in fish. If a fish floats to the surface when it stops swimming, it might be a swim bladder problem but is more likely to be air trapped in the fish's intestine. To test whether it's air, you simply stop feeding the fish dry food for a week and feed them live or frozen foods instead. If the fish swim normally after a few days without dry food, then the problem is air in the intestine. This problem is incredibly common with fancy short bodied goldfish that get fed flake or pellet foods.

If a fish sinks when it stops swimming, that is normally a swim bladder problem and there is no cure. However, some fish eat gravel and it can cause them to sink when they stop swimming. Sometimes the gravel gets passed out the back end and the fish swims normally afterwards, other times it doesn't get passed out and the fish eventually dies.

If you feed dry food to your fish, I would suggest not using it for a week and feed the fish on frozen and or live foods and see if it helps. If it does fix the problem, then reduce the amount of dry food you use and add more frozen and live foods to their diet. And make sure they get plenty of plant matter, preferably from aquatic plants and algae, because they digest them better than terrestrial plants.

Even after feeding strictly veggies, it didn't improve in terms of its buoyancy. I mentioned this in one of my post comments actually. This is why I am perplexed.

 

[Colin_T]

Bacterial infections are normally introduced with new fish, or occur in dirty tanks that don't get regular water changes, gravel cleans, or have the filter cleaned regularly.

Internal bacterial infections are normally caused by contaminated food (usually frozen food like bloodworms that hasn't been irradiated). Some internal bacterial infections are caused by Mycobacteria (Fish Tuberculosis) and there is no cure for this.

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Most external bacterial infections in fish show up as red areas on the body or red lines in the fins (including tail). The red area spreads rapidly (over a few days) and the skin, muscle tissue and fins dissolve quite rapidly. Death generally occurs within a week or two depending on the type of bacteria, the size of the fish and the overall health of the fish.

Columnaris is an external bacterial infection that starts out as a white mouth and spreads over the head and face very quickly. The fish usually die within 24-48 hours of showing symptoms.

Another form of Columnaris is sometimes found in neon tetras and guppies. It appears as a pale (almost white) area on part of the body, and the colour fades from the fish in this area. Within 24-48 hours the infected fish are dead. I have never seen this form of Columnaris affect goldfish.

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Internal bacterial infections in fish normally cause the fish to swell up rapidly overnight, the fish do a stringy white poop (this can also be caused by intestinal worms or an internal protozoan infection), the fish stop eating, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, and usually die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. There is no cure for fish with these symptoms because internal organ failure has generally occurred and the fish should be euthanised to prevent suffering.

Internal protozoan infections in fish cause the fish to eat but not as much as normal. They lose weight quickly over a 2 week period. Do a stringy white poop, and usually die after about 2 weeks, sometimes sooner if the fish is small or weak.
Metronidazole is normally used to treat internal protozoan infections in fish.

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When you fed the fish peas and spinach, were they boiled and mushed and fed at the surface, or how did you feed them to the fish?

If they floated around the tank, the fish can take in air while eating and the air takes time to come out of their intestine.

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If you can post a one minute video of the fish swimming and floating it might offer more information. You can upload videos to YouTube, then copy & paste the link here. We can view it at YouTube.

If you use a mobile phone to film the fish, hold the phone horizontally so the footage fills the entire screen. It makes it easier to see the fish.