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Old 08-26-2004, 03:15 AM   #101
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Trying to see it from the other side, I guess one argument would be that those people would not have had regular marriages or children anyway, so it's not gonna affect anything really.

Still.. it all just seems a bit too liberal for my liking. Actually not liberal.. sorry to say I just don't think it's taking society in the right direction. I guess there's no point in saying no offense since that probably would offend those it concerns. Oh well.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:04 AM   #102
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actually, there is a type of pygmy chimpanzee (sp???) that regularly performs acts of homosexuality (is there a problem with this word? I am not using it negatively). I understand from the viewpoint of the church, and I am assuming you guys are talking about the religious form of marriage, however state marriage is something completely different, and I do not agree with the fact that church and state are not remaining seperate on this issue. There are many legal issues that require marriage which same sex couples are being denied. These are rights, and they deserve them. I guess my basic argument is:

every person is human
according to our society, humans have rights which shouldn't be denied (minus criminals, etc...)
therefor, every person has rights which should not be denied

Just because someone practices something you do not beleive in (and it is an act that is not causing you or others harm) then it should be allowed. So far as I can tell, a person's choice in who they end up loving doesn't hurt me or anyone, so I say let it be legalized by the state. In my opinion, religion can do whatever they want in banning it, although I know many same sex couples want to be recognized in God's eyes, but that is the church's decision. There, I'm done with that. I hope this topic doesn't explode because I know people are very passionate about it, more so than MM's movie
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:28 AM   #103
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good call on the chimps, ruby. just wanted to add dolphins to that same list.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:29 AM   #104
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FWIW, none of my opinions are based on religious beliefs.

And I do have pretty strong views about this topic, which if stated would make a lot of people hate me.. so I'll leave it at : I'm against it.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:59 AM   #105
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I have seen the movie (downloaded off of the internet. I am not going to make that man any richer. If he likes making money off of the war and turning around and scolding others for doing the same, fine. But he won't get a cent from me.)

I have done the research.

and I have listened to the discussions by political experts on both ends and I can tell you that fishfinatic is correct in her statements.

I do not mind an anti Bush Film. I welcome political and social diversity, But if you are going to make such a film. Please make sure you don't lie to your audence. they will find out.

There are intellegent people out there and they do pay attention.

Don't forget. Kerry had the same information as everyone else. And he voted "yes" to go to war.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:59 AM   #106
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Was it Machiavelli that said "all democracies are doomed to end in a military state"? We can't really protect ourselves unless we close our borders, but if we close our borders we're not America anymore.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but my boss has. He's a big time liberal but not a blind follower. His advice on the movie was this...

"You have to know what you're getting into before you watch the movie. He puts his spin on things so you'll see what he wants you to see. I mean, you don't go to an Adam Sandler flick and expect to see Shakespear do you? It's the same type of thing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstixs05
on a little side note to the marraige issue, I believe that two people coming together in love should all have equal rights (i.e. child legality, spouse benifits) unregarding MM,MF,FF, because the only argument I have heard against it relates only to religious beliefs, which the separation of church and state should prevent.
Marriage is based in religion; how could it not be argued under religious beliefs? The way I see it, this isn't about "I want to be married.", this is about "I want something for free". Everyone wants something for free. Free rides, free food, free benefits. Companies have traditionally given benefits to the families of workers as a way to entice employees to work for them (usually in lieu of higher wages). Since most companies are in business to make money, they are going to put as many limits on what they spend on employees as possible. When a group of people suddenly say "I want free stuff too", this is going to make companies who have to foot the bill for the "free stuff" either...

a) make it so they don't have to give for free (i.e. deny benefits), or
b) pass the bill to somebody else (usually the employees)

I already can't afford health insurance (even with the percentage that my company is willing to pay). So this only makes it more un-affordable; not only for me, but for everybody else as well. It's like there's a hundred people in the middle of the ocean with a ten man life raft. Instead of a small group making it in, everybody is going to try to get in and the whole thing is going to sink...

BTW, has anybody ever attended a wedding for a chimp or a dolphin or seen either with an insurance card?
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:15 AM   #107
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Great post there deli_conker, you stated what everyone seems to forget in the debate, marriage is not something that can be extracted from its religious roots. It is a religious event, and so if you want 'marriage' you will have to obey the rules regarding marriage!

As for Fahrenheit 9/11 - we all saw the events unfolding, we all made assumptions and connections on our own. We all know that Michael More is a skilled producer of controversial documentaries (Bowling for Columbine was outstanding). What he does is stand up and say 'look I have linked all these events in this way'.
Now the ball is in the opposing court, it is up to someone else to stand up and make a documentary with a differnent spin on it. - imo if you can't do that, then that adds more credibility to him
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:21 AM   #108
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I was not talking about religious marraiges at all, just saying that gay couples should be have some of the same rights as another coup[le. Such as this: If a gay couple adopts a child, it can only be in one person's name. Therefore, it that person dies, the child is under the protection of there family, not their spouse. Alll i am trying to say is that, it seems wrong to prevent these people from being married. The have orientation of which are not controlled (i.e. i could not turn gay) so they are only doiing what feels natural to them. oh and deli, i dont believe that marraige is nessesarily based on religion. It simply two people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. I realize you can put the religious spin on it, but to break it down it is a legal contract between two people. But do you feel this is not the same kind of love?
Oh and ambulocetus, I would love to see someone make a documentary opposite MM, i would run out and see the first day. Not because I agree with them, but because I want to be informed in how some americans feel. But until then, it seems like only "liberal"(open minded) views have been pieced together.
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:24 AM   #109
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here is a film from a different angle... Haven't seen it yet myself but it looks promising.

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/

very funny trailers.
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:28 AM   #110
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I have to disagree with the views on marriage and religion.. I'm pretty sure atheists get married too. Why does there have to be a religious (or financial) element to a man and a woman wanting to get married? It's sounds like a pretty normal way to start a family to me...
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