J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/ro-water-tds-level-285731.html
Gh/Kh/TDS (not pretty but it covers some ground)
(A reason why my answers are slightly more elaborate now)
Nitrite toxicity discussion
- Thread starter Caliban07
- Start date
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/ro-water-tds-level-285731.html
Gh/Kh/TDS (not pretty but it covers some ground)
(A reason why my answers are slightly more elaborate now)
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
Tds stick is useful for source water only, you can use it to gauge a tank but don't rely on it explicitly. I fell foul to that. It's possible to have tds 120 in two tanks with pH 6.5 and pH 7.5.
Error made in year one of RO unit. You try to just match the water to a tds and you will end up with problems, that is user experience not a fact found in a book.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
What is it that you are trying to tell me here??
I added NaCl to the tap water. I measured TDS before and after. I think you might have missed the details of the experiment. I really am not sure of your point.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
That is true, it only measures conductive ions.
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
It reads wrong, I read it as sodium is Na-Cl. Not the sodium used in the experiment outlined above was actually Na-cl.
(There is a difference I can see) so there is a point. Follow through the tds link above, you will see why I make such elaborate answers here nowadays.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
? Table salt. Sodium Chloride. NaCl. This is what I used in my gallon of water. It was at 14 TDS. Added salt. Now at X TDS whatever my numbers were. It's completely valid. Both Na and Cl are conductive and will be read by the TDS meter. I'm not skipping around to different bodies of water etc. I am taking a body of water, adding one single component, and testing it again.
I am getting frustrated explaining myself over and over. If you are objecting to my method it needs to be stated more clearly.
I know that TDS is not gH/kH. I could add a kilo of table salt to my water and not get a gH or kH reading out of it. I am not using a gH or kH test on the water, I am using a TDS meter.(There is a difference I can see) so there is a point. Follow through the tds link above, you will see why I make such elaborate answers here nowadays.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
I think it's awesome. I use it every day. It actually gives me an idea of how my ferts are being consumed. Ferts go in, TDS goes up, check again before next ferts.
I also transfer things between my 10g and my display without acclimating due to them having same TDS, but I do acknowledge that JMcpeak is saying this is a bad idea. I am just not sure if he is talking about TDS or gH/kH as those are quite different. My independent research on the topic has indicated that this should work as trouble with acclimation is actually osmotic shock and not pH shock.
I also transfer things between my 10g and my display without acclimating due to them having same TDS, but I do acknowledge that JMcpeak is saying this is a bad idea. I am just not sure if he is talking about TDS or gH/kH as those are quite different. My independent research on the topic has indicated that this should work as trouble with acclimation is actually osmotic shock and not pH shock.
Thanks, yes that would be handy - which is all I need to know
Edit - want to know for an answer I should say for my own research. I don't want to drag way off topic
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Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/201180030309.pdf
This paper about the danio and guppy is a really interesting read. This article really emphasises that the toxicity levels is dependent on species. The the guppy being the most sensitive between these to.
Chloride levels during these tests remained at 19mg/l throughout and the 96hLC50 (the lethal concentration required to kill half the subjects over 96hrs) for the guppies was 30 something mg/l
How would we calculate the 96hLC50 if chloride was 5.5mg/l there must be a way but it's going to be too scientific for us. However, 30mg/l is 30ppm right? I don't think this is very likely to happen with fish in a tank. Maybe during a fish less cycle.
This paper about the danio and guppy is a really interesting read. This article really emphasises that the toxicity levels is dependent on species. The the guppy being the most sensitive between these to.
Chloride levels during these tests remained at 19mg/l throughout and the 96hLC50 (the lethal concentration required to kill half the subjects over 96hrs) for the guppies was 30 something mg/l
How would we calculate the 96hLC50 if chloride was 5.5mg/l there must be a way but it's going to be too scientific for us. However, 30mg/l is 30ppm right? I don't think this is very likely to happen with fish in a tank. Maybe during a fish less cycle.
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
You said originally sodium is Na-cl, all I did was question that, so. . . .
First of all calm down, I've explained myself several times here and elsewhere without getting stressed! The point you missed is if you don't explain completely and at each stage, it can and does lead to misunderstanding. If you don't understand something, have my comments to you been so abrupt? In not so sure they have been.
Don't rely on at Tds meter alone to Check a and b are the same, then transfer fish based on a tds reading. This will cause you problems, I know I did it, if you choose to disregard that, well that's your choice. It's fine for source water mixing providing the correct testing is carried out before the tds reading becomes a guide. After such tests yes for freshwater to the tank only, not tank A and B. If you fail to understand that, get ready with a net because I assure you fish will die or get very sick very quickly!
If you get frustrated so easy perhaps trying to advance the base skill set of people with less knowledge than yourself is best left to people of a calmer disposition. Teaching is a special skill.
That's what I think. This pertains only to this thread. No animosity will be received by you from me here or elsewhere. It is supposed to be a community.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
I think the big misunderstanding is that I am trying to "teach" anyone anything in a teacher role in this specific thread. I've just been trying to discuss the scientific stuff that we read with other science nerds. I'm not trying to take on the role of teacher here. It's obvious that this is the basis of this misunderstanding. I'm not here, in this thread, trying to advance anyone's "basic skill set". I'm trying to discuss what is clearly a more advanced topic. We all educate each other with our discoveries, but not constantly go back to the lowest common denominator here. We don't need to keep moving back to the basic beginner concepts and rehash them over and over.
I teach the newbies very well, and they thank me often. I have a much different expectation of understanding in the "Getting Started" area.
Rude...
Honestly, are you trolling me? It really feels like it. I say simply "I am getting frustrated" because the thread fails to have forward momentum, and get a "Calm down!" and "You're a sucky teacher!" It's quite hurtful.
I teach the newbies very well, and they thank me often. I have a much different expectation of understanding in the "Getting Started" area.
Rude...Honestly, are you trolling me? It really feels like it. I say simply "I am getting frustrated" because the thread fails to have forward momentum, and get a "Calm down!" and "You're a sucky teacher!" It's quite hurtful.
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I think the big misunderstanding is that I am trying to "teach" anyone anything in a teacher role in this specific thread. I've just been trying to discuss the scientific stuff that we read with other science nerds. I'm not trying to take on the role of teacher here. It's obvious that this is the basis of this misunderstanding. I'm not here, in this thread, trying to advance anyone's "basic skill set". I'm trying to discuss what is clearly a more advanced topic. We all educate each other with our discoveries, but not constantly go back to the lowest common denominator here. We don't need to keep moving back to the basic beginner concepts and rehash them over and over.
I teach the newbies very well, and they thank me often. I have a much different expectation of understanding in the "Getting Started" area.
Honestly, are you trolling me? It really feels like it. I say simply "I am getting frustrated" because the thread fails to have forward momentum, and get a "Calm down!" and "You're a sucky teacher!" It's quite hurtful.
I'm going to put my hand up and say I should have posted a tighter question. The error is mine. The answer from threnjen was helpful and exactly what I wanted (as always). Additional information is of course always welcome. Now hopefully we can continue on.
The variability does seem quite low for the guppies as well at 8.74 I think it was for 1SD. Even 2SD doesn't seem much issue unless you jumped ship from fish less to fish in cycle mid-way through.
I can't think of an easy calculation. I also wonder is their test the equivalent of a new tank or old tank - I think a week was mentioned.
Another thought that just hit me (and I could be way off base here) - does chloride build in a tank over time or get used or something?
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Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
That's a good question actually dela and needs looking in to.
What is your exact tap water chloride btw. This may definitely explain why your fish felt no effect at all. Maybe I wouldn't have been able to get away with high nitrites.
Holy crap - I found it Buried in reports for the last 100 years on community projects, the actual chloride readings! (sorry, it's taken ages to find this). ph, kh and I think gh (old test) match up so fairly confident. The chloride readings are min. = 140 mg/l, max. = 190 mg/l and average is 164 mg/l. Does this help?
Buried in reports for the last 100 years on community projects, the actual chloride readings! (sorry, it's taken ages to find this). ph, kh and I think gh (old test) match up so fairly confident. The chloride readings are min. = 140 mg/l, max. = 190 mg/l and average is 164 mg/l. Does this help?
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Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Well that would explain why your fish may have survived. Ultimately this is what I wanted to prove I guess. I think although nitrite should be taken as seriously as ammonia I.e ideally 0ppm. There is room for error and would explain why fish in cycles go through the nitrite stage without any problems.
Thanks.
Thanks.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
Wow Delapool, now I am really interested what your TDS reads out of the tap! That seems like a lot of chloride!
I was reading that link that JMcpeak posted to Bill Nye talking about TDS in more depth, but I got the impression that it is a pH probe that has a problem when calibrated at vastly different TDS. I don't see how the TDS meter could have inconsistencies because it is specifically calibrated to a special solution.
Sorry =| Unrelated. Should I take this to a new discussion? I am interested in TDS maybe as our next topic
I was reading that link that JMcpeak posted to Bill Nye talking about TDS in more depth, but I got the impression that it is a pH probe that has a problem when calibrated at vastly different TDS. I don't see how the TDS meter could have inconsistencies because it is specifically calibrated to a special solution.
Sorry =| Unrelated. Should I take this to a new discussion? I am interested in TDS maybe as our next topic
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Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Yes I need to expand on this more.
So shall we summarise on the nitrite discussion? Tell me what you have learned and I will second it
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Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Unless you feel there is more to uncover on the subject?
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